Riot continues to ignore Muramana when the only champ who uses it is EZ.....

xxxMadLionxxx·Mar 14, 2018·82 votes·16,185 views

no longer uses it after rework no longer uses it after rework does more damage from lethality and is no longer mana gated.

Besides no one really using the item, there has been several threads pointing out why the item is in a terrible state.

1... there aren't many AD/mana items to synergies with muramana. 2...takes for ever to stack. 3....the damage isn't worth the investment. Crit and lethality outscales muramana hard. 4....AD champs in general don't need mana anymore. 5....Does less damage the more it drains mana.

After all this, riot continues to ignore the item.

199 Comments

KrullyMar 14, 2018102 votes

agreed delete ez

RiotRiotRepertoirMar 14, 201865 votes

No one uses Ohmwrecker either :(

Black AlistarMar 14, 20186 votes

Can we remove some of the mana on Ezreal's W so that it doesn't feel like you screwed up by even casting it?

RiotRiotRepertoirMar 14, 201863 votes

But then he won't need the Mana from Manamune, and then literally no one would buy it.

quasistellarMar 14, 201822 votes

{quoted}

But then he won't need the Mana from Manamune, and then literally no one would buy it.

ding ding ding

ZepperMar 14, 20183 votes

Why do you remove items like Zephyr or DFG but not Ohmwrecker and Manamune anyway? Do you have plans in stored for them soon(tm)?

RiotRiotRepertoirMar 14, 201817 votes

It's a consideration to make on a case by case basis, honestly.

Removing DFG from the shop (though I wasn't on the team years ago when that decision was made) does seem like the right call to me.

As to Zephyr, it seems like it wasn't earning its place in the shop, and that's a very similar space for Ohmwrecker and Manamune. If Zephyr were still in the game today, I'm not sure there would be a good reason to remove it and not Ohmwrecker, for example. That said, we wouldn't really gain a whole lot by reintroducing it either. The difference to me between Zephyr and Manamune is perhaps that the fantasy behind Manamune is a lot more compelling and defined, perhaps, but that's a pretty subjective assessment.

SkorchMar 14, 20183 votes

{quoted}

It's a consideration to make on a case by case basis, honestly.

Removing DFG from the shop (though I wasn't on the team years ago when that decision was made) does seem like the right call to me.

As to Zephyr, it seems like it wasn't earning its place in the shop, and that's a very similar space for Ohmwrecker and Manamune. If Zephyr were still in the game today, I'm not sure there would be a good reason to remove it and not Ohmwrecker, for example. That said, we wouldn't really gain a whole lot by reintroducing it either. The difference to me between Zephyr and Manamune is perhaps that the fantasy behind Manamune is a lot more compelling and defined, perhaps, but that's a pretty subjective assessment.

I have an idea for Manamune. The issue ISNT that the people who used it arent mana-gated at all. Just that what the benefit is isnt all that helpful on everyone. And a lot of them have other options.

So maybe instead of being a bonus on auto-damage, have the benefit being something else AD related. Maybe something like "When you deal AD damage you deal an additional 3% of current mana as additional damage." or "Active: You spend 20% of max mana to deal 15% bonus damage for 8 seconds" Sure those may be imbalanced, but something NOT auto-attack reliant is what im getting here.

Since ADCs already dont have mana-issues, and the ones that do have item 3508 changing what the item gives to better suit the Talon or Yorick or Jayce or Urgot or Pantheon etc, I think would be where to take the item.

big boi edriMar 14, 20183 votes

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Muramana

Isn't that what it does already?

SkorchMar 15, 20183 votes

[{quoted}](name=Härd Stuck,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=d0o7nNgO,comment-id=0013000100000002000000010000,timestamp=2018-03-14T23:42:14.388+0000)

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Muramana

Isn't that what it does already?

No it is only basic attacks, and unit targeted abilities. Im talking about something to help people who might auto, but thats not all they do. Since currently it is only built on Ez, changing what it affects or what it DOES will increase the pool, while still being a Tear equivalent for AD.

big boi edriMar 15, 20181 votes

If it isn't an auto, its an ability. An ability is the only other thing besides autos/item damage. IDK, sounds like it does it already.

PB4UAMEMar 15, 20183 votes

It applies to single target spells and auto attacks, it is not applied for ground targeted, multitargeted, multi-hit, pass through, nor AoE abilities, which make up the vast majority of abilities.

The Yetii RiderMar 14, 20187 votes

The 'fantasy' of Manamune? What do you mean? If you're talking about charging up an item to gain power later, we have item 3040 / item 3027 . If you're talking about a legendary sword, we have item 3031 .

Manamune is from a different time, before Riot randomly decided that AD champions didn't need restrictive mana costs after laning phase anymore and they cut down on the mana costs of every AD champion except Jayce Ezreal and MasterYi . And since then, Jayce has had his mana costs lowered, Yi has FINALLY had his mana costs lowered, and Ezreal...Meddler mentioned that Ezreal really needs a new W like a year ago, but nothing has been done about that.

What fantasy does Manamune describe that isn't satisfied by item 3508 ?

FullmuteAll playMar 15, 20182 votes

well if ADC damage will get nerfed and tanks won't be too op to tank tower 24/7. item 3056 will have more attention.

Spank the FoxMar 15, 20186 votes

Ohmwrecker was introduced when towers were still good and nobody picked it up then.

It’s a fundamentally bad item.

SteelflameMar 15, 201810 votes

Its a fundementally bad item as long as it is a TANK item. Because they already don't care about towers generally by the first completed item, so why build an item to turn them off?

You know who would most benefit from Ohm Wrecker? Assassins looking for dive openings, and are willing to give up some damage for the tower to be a non-factor. It could also be a fitting Inspiration Keystone that uses the boot enchant method to make it something we can activate when we want it, so that anyone who wants to opt into diving could do so at the cost of the keystone. Imagine if a jungler could opt to give up their keystone, but after their first back in the jungle could turn off a tower once every 2-3 minutes? Perhaps even make it a Keystone enchant that makes ANY objective in the area go into stasis for ~5 seconds or so. Turn off an enemy tower for a dive? Sure. Protect an allied tower for 5 seconds so that we can clear the minion wave so they can't get much damage on it, compared to killing it? Sure. Notice that the enemy is doing Baron, and you JUST are too far to reach it in time? Gotcha covered. Perhaps the enemy jungle is going to try and contest that dragon, and are just about to blast cone over the pit? Would be a damned shame if the Dragon was suddenly stasised for 5 seconds now wouldn't it?

This would fit perfectly as an Inspiration keystone, without making it something that may be must take or not, and makes it something you can opt into as any champ, not just a tank or perhaps a tanky support.

Spank the FoxMar 15, 20181 votes

the problem with giving it to an assassin is that towers are supposed to be soft counters to their playstyle. Ohmwrecker on a damage class would be oppressive on splitpushing assassins (or Tryndamere) unless you gave them stats they didn’t want (basically pay for the active)

Bearing that in mind, it doesn’t even work because the effect is kinda negliable when factoring in dives anyways. Allies don’t really notice or appreciate the effect either (say if you wanted to initate a dive and this item signals that) to matter. It’s kinda like using Bard’s ult on an enemy turret - very rarely pays off or was necessary.

SteelflameMar 15, 20184 votes

Which is exactly why I think it is a very fitting Inspiration Keystone.

If an assassin opts into it, they are giving up Electrocute/Dark Harvest, and double-damage primary/secondary runes, for Inspiration's utility effects as their primary tree. That is a MASSIVE cost.

At that point, they are paying the price.

As for tower disables, the problem is the class that can get it is the one class that least cares about it. Bard can also do so with his ult, but it has a risk attached of the enemy trying to make use of the Stasis to hide out the dive and then outplay with the tower back up, or some other negative from his ult just because of how his ult is.

Meep ManMar 15, 20183 votes

Towers were never super scary though.

HollowMimicMar 15, 20182 votes

How about enhance the Manamune fantasy then?

I would assume the fantasy is for Spellslingers-BattleMages? The AP itemization (imo) missed to introduce items for this niche (mostly for BattleMages <3).

You feel the itemization for BattleMages is better suited to change/enhance with Fighter itemization changes? (has some logic)

VekknaMar 15, 20183 votes

The problem is that the niche for the item exists, but the item itself is too niche because of its pacing and single-target ability restriction.

I would have a lot more fun playing AD champs if there was an AD mana item that didn't completely hobble their power curve. For example, if you buy a Tear on ADs like Illaoi or MF, they play a lot more like a battle/mage, which is a lot of fun. Right now that's always a disastrous choice, but I think it would be nice if Muramana existed in a form that enabled that option with either a less crippling early tradeoff or a more rewarding payoff.

Maybe: item 3070 + item 1036 + 250 = item 3004 with 10 AD

Basically just making it a first-back item that scales up to BF level over time. It's also in the price range of Tiamat, which seems fair considering both enable strong waveclear (one through aa and the other through abilities).

XdeathitselfXMar 14, 20184 votes

i really like riotrepertoir :3

Final Spark LuxMar 14, 201820 votes

What's your point exactly? Do you want them to buff it? Do you think it should be reworked? Do you want them to remove it from the game entirely, and if so why? Etc. Saying Riot ignores it doesn't tell us what the point of this thread is.

xxxMadLionxxxMar 14, 201810 votes

[{quoted}](name=Final Spark Lux,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=d0o7nNgO,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2018-03-14T16:33:55.024+0000)

What's your point exactly? Do you want them to buff it? Do you think it should be reworked? Do you want them to remove it from the game entirely, and if so why? Etc. Saying Riot ignores it doesn't tell us what the point of this thread is.

I want them to rework the item so it appeals to more than just one champ.

Final Spark LuxMar 14, 20187 votes

Ah, now I have something to go off of. Personally, I feel like the time it takes to stack it is the biggest problem it has for certain champions, but reducing the time it takes to stack would make other champions a problem. I'm not sure how they could get around that since they already have a limit on how often you can get mana etc.

What if they were to do something like RoA where it will stack indefinitely over a set amount of time? Then again, that could become a problem since they'd most likely change archangels to match it, which could cause a lot of problems (mages becoming more OP).

It also doesn't give you that much AD, but I think that's because of Muramana's passive when it's fully stacked, but it gets progressively weaker the more you attack. If they were able to figure out a way to increase the rate at which it stacks for certain champions while also increasing the amount of AD it gave, it might be a more lucrative pick.

Oh I know, what if they put some CDR on it? -Shrugs-

Do you have any ideas?

######Just throwing some ideas out there :S

xxxMadLionxxxMar 14, 20183 votes

[{quoted}](name=Final Spark Lux,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=d0o7nNgO,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2018-03-14T16:49:20.489+0000)

Ah, now I have something to go off of. Personally, I feel like the time it takes to stack it is the biggest problem it has for certain champions, but reducing the time it takes to stack would make other champions a problem. I'm not sure how they could get around that since they already have a limit on how often you can get mana etc.

What if they were to do something like RoA where it will stack indefinitely over a set amount of time? Then again, that could become a problem since they'd most likely change archangels to match it, which could cause a lot of problems (mages becoming more OP).

It also doesn't give you that much AD, but I think that's because of Muramana's passive when it's fully stacked, but it gets progressively weaker the more you attack. If they were able to figure out a way to increase the rate at which it stacks for certain champions while also increasing the amount of AD it gave, it might be a more lucrative pick.

Oh I know, what if they put some CDR on it? -Shrugs-

Do you have any ideas?

######Just throwing some ideas out there :S

A lot of ppl don't like this idea, but I wish they made it adaptive/hybrid like the new rageblade. I say this because there are a lot of mages who have single target spells who can proc muramana, but the item is AD so they never build it. Not only that, but the passive works with auto attacks/on hit spells/ and single target spells. This makes it great as a hybrid item.

Ahri Cassiopeia Ryze Syndra Swain new swain Q can proc it 5 times. I would also love some CDR.

And it would also need a hard cap to prevent champs like Kaisa from procing it 12 times. Something like only 3 procs per second.

Final Spark LuxMar 14, 20186 votes

Ooohh I like that idea. I wouldn't mind trying that out in one of my builds if it worked for mages :P. Old Ryze with old muramana was amazing. Good idea having a cap on it, there are definitely champs who would end up abusing it if these changes went through.

ModWulf HelhammerMar 14, 20184 votes

And it would also need a hard cap to prevent champs like from procing it 12 times. Something like only 3 procs per second.

They actually removed that while it was still on PBE.

Bob the ToastrMar 14, 20186 votes

I want them to remove Ezreal.

Final Spark LuxMar 14, 201813 votes

Same. Then people would stop thinking we're dating. I've never even talked to him. That isn't gonna fix manamune / muramana though. Do you have any ideas aside from removing Ezreal? :P

Derp PrincessMar 14, 201812 votes

Do you have any ideas aside from removing Ezreal? :P

Zoe : Remove Lux.

Final Spark LuxMar 14, 201816 votes

Ideas that would benefit manamune / muramana. I don't use that item, therefore your idea is moot. Now stop being mad at me and go talk to Ezreal. We aren't dating.

IfnethMar 14, 20182 votes

It’s funny how you dropped into a thread where that was never mentioned just to deny it...

Final Spark LuxMar 14, 20185 votes

I mentioned it because someone said they'd like Ezreal removed. I said same and provided context as to why. You don't know how annoying it is for people to constantly claim you're dating someone you aren't Shakes head

MalfectiousMar 14, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Bob the Toastr,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=d0o7nNgO,comment-id=00030001,timestamp=2018-03-14T16:57:35.440+0000)

I want them to remove Ezreal.

What did Ezreal do to you??

IfnethMar 14, 20183 votes

It’s secretly J4’s account. He wants Ezreal out of the way so he can marry Lux to bring her family, the Crownguards, into the royal family.

D3m37r1Mar 14, 201810 votes

no longer mana gated.

Since when?

edit: why all the downvotes? I was just asking a question.

BALDG1VEN BOOMERMar 14, 201839 votes

Patch 6.17

E - Thundering Blow COST : [40/50/60/70/80/90 mana] ⇒ 40 mana at all ranks

That's when most Jayce players stopped building tear

DeusVultMar 14, 20184 votes

wasnt lethality buffed around the same time? Which made many high level players start building lethality on him as opposed to getting tear, since it smoothed his mid game

420 gramsMar 14, 201810 votes

It's still part of Jayce's recommend build, so new Jayce players are often still baited into buying it.

Lord of MathMar 14, 20183 votes

Ryze I am sorry what did you say?

xxxMadLionxxxMar 14, 201814 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lord of Math,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=d0o7nNgO,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-03-14T16:30:02.690+0000)

I am sorry what did you say?

His current rework state doesn't abuse muramana like before.

Lord of MathMar 14, 20183 votes

{quoted}

His current rework state doesn't abuse muramana like before.

He still can shit on people with item 3042 3% of mana is a lot of mana on Ryze . Now if only it also had cooldown reduction as well, then it would be perfect for my build.

Arcos AlistairMar 14, 20184 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lord of Math,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=d0o7nNgO,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-03-14T16:30:02.690+0000)

I am sorry what did you say?

I see you are a man of culture as well

Lord of MathMar 14, 20188 votes

[{quoted}](name=Arcos Alistair,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=d0o7nNgO,comment-id=00020001,timestamp=2018-03-14T16:49:42.206+0000)

I see you are a man of culture as well

Did you mean a Man'a culture?

RookPusherMar 15, 20183 votes

It should evolve into item 3508

LuminevMar 14, 20182 votes

I should really start cheese building it after the Kai'Sa Q buff [sg-ezreal]

5050BSMar 14, 20183 votes

It does not trigger on her Q anymore. That only was on the PBE (and I liked it)

404 TerrorMar 14, 20181 votes

This is basically why they removed Tracker's Knife, as Lee Sin was the primary champion hyper-benefiting from it.

Anyway, with item 3508 being so viable, item 3043 does seem super weak late-game. item 3070 is almost beneficial for anyone getting it, though. I'd like to see more items built from it, personally.

dunder killMar 14, 20188 votes

No lol. It was removed because every single competitive jungler was taking it and it made LCS games boring due to the extra vision control making ganks and roams much harder