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No class deserves and deserved an update more than divers

Ahristocats·Jun 11, 2017·19 votes·1,367 views

the class of generic no niche hard cc tanky burst mobile melees the class where you just pick the strongest one in the class disregarding any strategy in the game the class with the biggest amount of generalists

good examples of divers: counters champions who rely on a single spell to escape like vayne/twisted fate, he can kill them with his spellshield easily if they're alone counters invisible champions with her W counters burst champions and single target CC like malz ult with his W counters champions like singed and olaf that run fast while being hard to lockdown i don't understand why he's a diver instead of a skirmisher as he lacks of burst and has way more DPS, but this dude is the only melee able to kite other melees like a ranged champion best engage in the game

now comes the bad designs:

mobile tanky champion with burst and hard cc, a generalist that can be picked in every games without doing better in a game than an other ^ ^ ^ ^ ^

some divers also do not offer any counterplay, anything to dodge what so ever:

the diver class really needs something, and high elo diversity would be better if those 2 generalists got reworked already

edit: forgot

58 Comments

Zero Skill TankJun 11, 201710 votes

The problem with divers isn't that the class has too much generalist in it, it's that the whole concept of a diver is a generalist one.

Divers need tankiness, but not too much - that's for tanks and juggs. Mobility, but not too much - that's for assassins and skirmishers. Burst, but not too much - that's for assassins. DPS, but not too much - that's for skirmishers. Dueling power, but not too much - that's for juggs and skirmishers. Teamfight power and crowd control, but not too much - that's for tanks.

There is no domain in which Divers excel over other classes, and they have no real weak spots outside of being melee - and still, out of all melee classes, Divers have the least problem with that, as they are both tanky and mobile.

ZT XperimentorJun 11, 20172 votes

Hence why leesin, xinzhao, and irelia were the trailblazers of the generalist class known as 'divers'.

RalanrJun 11, 20172 votes

Basically showcasing that fighters have been poorly designed for years.

love leagueJun 12, 20171 votes

preach it, please preach it

Big LincolnJun 11, 20175 votes

when people list Rengar as diver without sayin anything else you know it's time to revert

where's olaf in your list tho tbh, since riot betrayed me and lists him as diver now

AhristocatsJun 11, 20171 votes

i knew rengar was listed as a diver which is why i put him here

didn't know that olaf was a diver now, but even if he were to be one he's already unique and no one can do what he does

Big LincolnJun 11, 20173 votes

petition w/ me to get olaf titled as juggernaut ubermensch again

i don't want to have m5 on filthy diver

Irelia BotJun 11, 20176 votes

You seem tilted by the idea of playing something other than a juggernaut.

Big LincolnJun 11, 20173 votes

that's correct, does that bother you

Irelia BotJun 11, 20174 votes

BRB getting riot to label Illaoi a marksmen

Malicious MetalJun 11, 20172 votes

Mastery 7 Mordekaiser used to be "Sniper"

Let that sink in.

GULAG 4 UJun 12, 20172 votes

Wat

Hella KaiserJun 12, 20172 votes

well... if you ult the enemy cait...

Akali is SO HOTJun 11, 20172 votes

Well since he's now classified as a diver instead of an Assassin maybe that means he'll get reworked in that class update and end up being an Assassin again :^)

MelledoneusJun 11, 20173 votes

I would agree with you, but asking for an update might as well be asking for punishment and another buff to marksmen.

ForgiveColourJun 11, 20172 votes

we dont talk about mages and bruisers here dude

MyDaddysAGoblinJun 11, 20171 votes

why cause u main support, SORRY U CANT GET CARRIED

AhristocatsJun 11, 20179 votes

https://i.gyazo.com/efb6aec98d2affab716143aada4db9d2.png

i don't get why i'm attracting all the children of the board mods want to ban me again so badly? my blacklist will be bigger than the average american if this continues like this

d4rkshockJun 11, 20171 votes

why are people calling Rengar a diver when tank rengar as far as im concerned is gone. he might just be a rework magnet and will continue to be one like Ryze . Camille is a skimisher. Pantheon is supposed to get a full vgu.

AhristocatsJun 11, 20171 votes

tank rengar isn't gone LOL tank rengar with warrior and black cleaver and his ad rabadon will have 300 ad and combo an adc like a real diver

camille a skirmisher? my bad then

Sahn UzalJun 11, 20171 votes

Nope. Camille's a diver.

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/gameplay/taking-another-look-subclasses

d4rkshockJun 11, 20171 votes

All assasins build black cleaver. I smell another rengar rework commingout in the future. Since he has the evelynn issue all over again. The optimal build for Eve and even if your ahead is tank although AP is still fun.

d4rkshockJun 11, 20171 votes

Every assasins ad uses black cleaver. It has 20% CDR and ad assasins s like that. Throw in youmus with dd or CDR boots and 40% CDR.

Samura YukisunaJun 11, 20171 votes

Where's Stat Check 2000? Irelia

Irelia BotJun 11, 20174 votes

Wondering why she no longer has a passive.

Samura YukisunaJun 11, 20171 votes

Huh? Shyvana

d4rkshockJun 11, 20171 votes

No. She's a juggernaut.i know bc I play her. Infact, I have the most mastery points on her on my account and chasing 2 more s/s+'s. S- doesn't work for lvl 7. She's the only juggernaut who bypasses the main weakness of all juggernauts. She has a gap closer and no other juggernaut has one. She is still kitable but maybe not later in the game. She doesn't do enough damage to kill one person in the backline before dying but she can still hit like a truck if she gets ahead. Also her ult now acts. like renekton/nasus where it gives bonus hp. As long as she has some slows like FM, botrk, DMP, and exaust/ghost, even your ADC may have issues or walking if she can get to them and they have no escapes.

Samura YukisunaJun 11, 20171 votes

I think you completely missed the point of my comment... Shyvana has no real passive. She gets +5 resistances for every drake her team gets - in other words, thats a (realistic) maximum of +25 resists if she gets EVERY SINGLE DRAKE within 5 minutes of each drake spawning! Would you call that a real passive? Olaf gets the same with his ultimate - at level 11, tier 2. Without having to stack it. Shyvana will need to bring down four elemental drakes and the elder drake to recieve the same benefits from her passive. That is realistically 32-35 minutes into the game - where Olaf is likely to get level 11 anywhere between 12 minutes in and 18.

This way Shyvana, who is already somewhat kiteable gets even more weaknesses - and becomes extremely feast or famine, besides relying A LOT on matchmaking giving her reliable teammates.

Her current passive would be fine as a passive for her ultimate. The 10% increased damage to dragons means her passive yields almost nothing outside the jungler role, and even then it has no noticeable impact whatsoever.

I'm not even playing Shyvana myself - but for the sake of seeing her useful again (and for the sake of diversity) this passive would either have to be reworked, or made to apply to all objectives - 10% increased damage to towers, dragons, rift herald, baron...

I allways found her character cool - she seems like she would be fun to play as well. But at the moment, there are simply other champions doing everything she can do better than her.

d4rkshockJun 12, 20171 votes

I missed that first part of the thread. I honestly think riot doesn't want her to be good. It seems every time she is good,riot tends to do something to fuck her up. Then they leave her to rot and her items get nerfed due to other champions abusing them. Yasuo ruined frozen mallet. The titanic hydra was a wide spread thing. Same for sated devour. Especially Yi. Botrk was nerfed then buffed and then reworked. The list goes on. I agree a bruiser shouldn't be a feast or famine champion.

AhristocatsJun 11, 20171 votes

i forgot her, but this just shows how the diver class is fucked up

Wet DrymanJun 11, 20171 votes

mobile tanky champion with burst and hard cc

You've just described Gragas, do you think that he is also a generalist in need of rework?

AhristocatsJun 11, 20175 votes

gragas has in no way the mobility of a diver, while my description described gragas, he can't reach the backline unless he has flash and if he goes full tank his burst will fall off in late game unlike a diver

gragas also has a niche, his ult is perfect to split the enemy team letting an assassin doing his job for instance

Chembaron YamadaJun 11, 20171 votes

Divers should get an update, sure. But they should do the same like in the tank update and just pick 3 champs to work on.

My opinion on some champions is a bit different, though. Vi for example is pretty good against key targets with high mobility like assassins or mobile ADCs because of her ult. I wouldn't really consider Elise as tanky, tbh.... And Pantheon and Irelia are actually pretty high on the list for a VGU.

But I would like to ask you: if you would have to pick 3 divers for the roster update, which one would you chose and what would be a niche you could imagine for them?

AhristocatsJun 11, 20171 votes

if we do not take in account champions who need a vgu lvl of rework

i would pick elise lee renekton the most generalistic champions of high elo

Chembaron YamadaJun 11, 20171 votes

I can get behind Lee Sin, since he is creating alot of frustration for players. It would be great if they could do the same thing they did for Katarina: remove ward hopping and replace it with a different mobility mechanic. Just as I hope that they will remove it from Jax one day.

A candidate with higher priority than Elise and Renekton in my opinion is Diana.... RIght now, she isn't really living up to the diver playstyle. She plays more like an assassin, building tons of damage and going in to blow up targets, but oftenly dying herself in the process because of the lack of escapes.

Diana is highly requested for that roster update and therefore I think they should give it to her.

I play Elise myself and like her, but I understand if people are "sick of her" just like of Lee Sin, since she is dominating pro play for such a long time. Maybe they could even create interesting new mechanics for her, webs are not really well represented in her kit and would be great for her spider fantasy.

But you didn't answer the second part of my question. ^^ How about niches? I have a hard time finding out what could really be the unique feature of champions like that. I saw a suggestion to make Elise the "anti-counterjungling-jungler", by giving her warning systems including webs and making her strong at defending her jungle with her spiderlings. But that's pretty much it.

AhristocatsJun 11, 20171 votes

elise actually was supposed (words of morello) to be an anti-bruiser champion

which makes sense completly because her main mechanic is her Q switching between missing hp and current hp damage what doesn't make sense is elise being able to combo a squishy AND be able to damage heavily a bruiser, which is what makes her a generalist

remove completly the base damage of both of her Q, increase the %hp damage, and give her less damage against squishies, more damage against bruisers you would pick elise if they have a heavy tanky team

with that i think she wouldn't need a rework

XIII VanitasJun 11, 20171 votes

Your analysis is extremely superficial.

DoozkuJun 11, 20171 votes

I know that you are going to disagree with me, but I feel like enchanters need a class update more than Divers. You know how in every class update Riot adds new items and gimmicks to support to try and make the more engaging for people to play, but it never ends up working? That would be the perfect time to tackle that problem. Not to mention that many of the enchanters lack identities. Why would I pick Nami over Janna? They both do the same thing, peeling for their carry and healing/shielding them. I would talk more about this but I'm on mobile rn so typing is a pain.

AhristocatsJun 11, 20171 votes

janna does in no way the same thing nami does no support does what janna does, i just played a game today where i was janna against irelia+nocturne+rakan, rakan could never never ult, and irelia was 5/0 and did nothing in the teamfight as i stopped her dash janna is the ultimate counter to mobile melees, except if their dash cannot be stopped like malphite

that being said, the enchenter class needs an update but they do not have as many champions as the diver class does enchenters are like karma+sona+nami+lulu who are all generalists, janna doesn't need a rework

the diver class has so many champions to look at

zaire90Jun 11, 20171 votes

{quoted}

I know that you are going to disagree with me, but I feel like enchanters need a class update more than Divers. You know how in every class update Riot adds new items and gimmicks to support to try and make the more engaging for people to play, but it never ends up working? That would be the perfect time to tackle that problem. Not to mention that many of the enchanters lack identities. Why would I pick Nami over Janna? They both do the same thing, peeling for their carry and healing/shielding them. I would talk more about this but I'm on mobile rn so typing is a pain.

nami has better engage janna better disengage at least thats how I choose between the 2

ModKnightsKemplarJun 11, 20171 votes

Didn't they say that they weren't going to do class reworks anymore, really? It seems like the most we could hope for is 3-4 reworks if that's what they decide to tackle next, much like with tanks.

Do you think there's anything they could do to diver itemization to help? It seems like future class reworks will be aimed more at the underlying systems and item choices than individual champs.

DunkinNoobsJun 11, 20171 votes

Riot's classes are strange anyway. Jax and Aatrox are considered divers by Riot but both are really skirmishers that can dive in a pinch. Mundo and Shyvana are both juggernauts that tend to function as divers due to their high MS. Lee Sin as a diver is extremely questionable; he's pretty much never able to dive the back line and kill them by himself unless he's really fed.

Irelia BotJun 11, 20171 votes

Didn't they put Jax as a skirmisher?

deadlychuckJun 11, 20171 votes

And if the new ban system has anything to say about it, so do skirmishers.

I have to admit though, i find it very strange that a class like "Mages" or "Tanks" gets one big update which they stuff all the subclasses into, but then they split up juggernauts and assassins based on subclasses for updates.

But i guess marksmen don't really have subclasses, even though you could reasonably split them up between which always build atk spd, crit, and raw AD.

RalanrJun 11, 20172 votes

That's because the general pool of champions that can fit "fighter" is frankly massive.

deadlychuckJun 11, 20171 votes

Then that still doesn't explain why assassins (11) got their own, when the "Slayer" class (17) as a whole is actually smaller than the "Tank" class (18), but it still received one generalized update. Or why, the "Mage" pool of 25 champions was shoved into a single update, before you even consider all of the game wide changes like dragon that occurred in the same update. Sure, the "Diver" pool alone is 19 champions, so keeping them separated as their own rework would be fine.

I don't want to accuse riot of playing favorites, but they sure as hell don't seem to mind giving the same groups of champions less focused attention time and time again.

P.S. holy shit these subclasses feel extremely forced.

RalanrJun 11, 20172 votes

Tanks didn't get a generalized update. All the tanks updates were vanguard tanks.

Mages I'm assuming was because the subclass system wasn't fully developed at the time.

d4rkshockJun 11, 20171 votes

Irellia and pantheon are getting full vgu's. Pantheon is the ultimate feast or famine champion. If he gets ahead, there's no stopping him unless the game goes late which happens alot in low elo. Irellia has always been a numbers nightmare. It was a desperate attempt to make melee champions work in lol and the reason they don't work is because no turn time. Turn time is a mechanic in DotA where your hero has to physically turn to attack. Riot left that out because they wanted to make the game easier to learn but hard to master. They also removed Denning. were you can kys via bloodstone (Wich is in a way the mejais of DotA but it has an active that instantly kills you and nobody gets gold if you use it and you still lose stacks. It can be stacked indefinitely and you lose 1/3 sacks on death) and some abities like pudge's rot and techies suicide squad. You could also deny minions and towers by using ad attack command. You could even feed yourself to Roshan or jungle monsters. Anyways,back to irellia. She has a rediculous amount of boons such as tenacity, lifesteal, cc, mobility and true damage. The only melee champions that work are mobile ones. The others just get kitted pretty hard. But you know what they say about all team games. There's no I in team. Tanks have cc and meet to cc them for juggernauts to get to them and the cc is normally a ranged skillshot or some sort of gapcloser. The rest have good mobility.

HaIlMonitorJun 11, 20171 votes

What they need to do is make it so towers actually do something, and divers are good. Why use a diver when something like Galio can dive, tank, and out damage any of them anyways.

GULAG 4 UJun 12, 20171 votes

Aatrox has signicany better burst than most skirmishers though.

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