I have an idea to rework crit and make marksman have superior sustained damage but weak burst

Pyrithegethon·Nov 7, 2016·39 votes·2,788 views

Crit should be changed from being rng to being something that ramps your damage but faster with more crit.

What I mean: Crit chance gives each auto after the first on enemy champions and epic monsters within 5 seconds but constantly refreshing on every auto a % increase in auto attack damage by 1/3 of your crit until your 4th auto which makes all your autos do %increased damage equal to crit. Example below of how this works:

has 200 total AD, 100% crit chance, and is attacking a . If we ignore resistances her first auto deals 200 damage, her second auto deals 266 damage, 3rd auto deals 334 damage, and her 4th auto and beyond deals 400 damage.

An idea i thought of while looking at Darius bleed.

44 Comments

ROYALR3IGNNov 7, 201611 votes

Why would anyone even bother building crit anymore if you're gonna nerf that item path so hard. People will just build niche (Youmumu / Duskblade) assassin items + black cleaver, cause that's way more efficient if you implement this

PyrithegethonNov 7, 20165 votes

Reason the armor pen build is so good is because of the burst you get givibg squishies little to no time to react before blowing up. Riot wants adcs to be sustained damage dealers (except a few cases) and reworking crit from rng to something more predictable and playable for all players is healthier.

Would you rather Vayne get 2 lucky crits with IE Shiv and blow the adc up or would you like to see and play around the moment of power? Think Darius, disengage when close to 5 stacks or 5 stacks but go ham whrn he isnt 5 stacks and is killable.

These crit changes would be different for select champione if they dont get reworked anytime soon or changed like Tryndamere and Jhin.

Sightless66Nov 7, 201612 votes

I don't think you adequetely addressed his complaint. He's not making any commentary about whether or not your proposal is healthier than the current system. He's saying that your new system is a lot weaker than the current crit system, and he's right. Your proposal strictly reduces the expected dps from crit until you autoattack someone 4 times, at which point it breaks even. That's weaker than the current crit system, and it would force carries to start using non-crit items.

Riot wants adcs to be sustained damage dealers (except a few cases) and reworking crit from rng to something more predictable and playable for all players is healthier.

But you're also nerfing it heavily by significantly reducing the dps crit gives you until the fourth autoattack, when it only breaks even with the current system. Regardless of whether or not it's healthier, your proposal does make it a lot weaker.

I mean, it doesn't matter how healthy the system is if it's too weak to actually use, and that's kind of what you've done by making carries ramp up to the same dps that they would have had before the changes.

ProfDrDeathNov 7, 20161 votes

That's only if the underlying numbers stay the same.

With his system, it is no longer relevant to cap Crit at 100% Chance. You could, for example, increase crit's numbers on all items by 5-10%, resulting in higher DPS after the ramp-up.

The system is overall an interesting idea to implement such a hyperscaling mechanic in a game.

PyrithegethonNov 8, 20162 votes

Yea this system is weaker in short fights but a buff for long battles like teamfights. Current ADCs have been strong for so many seasons this wouldnt make them unviable or "weak" just have a clear moment where they are powerful.

Numbers i put there are just an idea, not what i want it to exactly be.

Sightless66Nov 8, 20165 votes

buff for long battles like teamfights.

With the numbers you put out, it is strictly a nerf up until the point where you hit 4 attacks, at which point is mathematically the exact same dps that you currently have on live. It's weaker in every fight, no matter what. It literally can't be stronger unless there is a point where the carry can have a higher expected dps with the new system than they do on live.

So, that raises a question: Are you willing to let carries have more damage with the new system than they do on live after a certain number of autoattacks, or is it just going to be a straight nerf? That's not a numbers question, it's a design question. What do you want out of it?

No matter what your answer is though, I dislike the proposal. I think it's homogenizing, and works to hard to force all the champions in a class to play similarly. You're taking a very general stat, used by champions with multiple different playstyles, and you're forcing them into all playing the same way. Right now, the only thing crit encourages is autoattacking. You're changing it into forcing people to autoattack the same target over and over again. You're forcing a playstyle on people by attaching that playstyle to a non-negotiable stat.

If we're going to derandomize crit, the best way to do it is in a way that is as playstyle-neutral as possible. We should have crit give a %damage increase to autoattacks. That way, playstyle differences can be forced solely by champion kits, not by what kind of stat they're forced to buy. Doing otherwise is way, way too homogenizing. It puts too much important on a playstyle derived from a stat, instead of playstyles derived from their kits.

To put it simply, it's boring, it's dull, and it promotes champions to be similar to each other instead of distinct. That's not healthy for the game. We can achieve any balance goals we're after without having to resort to trying to force homogenization of playstyles on a class.

ShaolinToiletNov 8, 20161 votes

I don't think you read his idea

Sightless66Nov 8, 20161 votes

Definitely read it. Would have been hard to write good criticism without doing it.

You want to be a little more specific maybe? Tell me why you think that?

SpoofghoulNov 8, 20161 votes

You read his idea and then you started commenting on the numbers which isn't relevant to the idea itself.

That being said i would not mind that dps decrease at all its been nothing but major increase after major increase the last 2 seasons dps is higher then it has ever been so a decrease would be nice for a change

and no this doesn't make armorpen builds the new standard crit would still result in higher dps is just takes a few attacks to ramp up which is an excellent dps mechanic and an excellent way to remove then rng factor without really changing the play style of marksmen since they will still be basic attacking from range like always

It might even lead to more viable build options as well since you could just sit on that one infinity edge and still use it to amp up your dps big time whilst leaving room to buy different attack speed and ad items you would otherwise not really build

Sightless66Nov 8, 20161 votes

You read his idea and then you started commenting on the numbers which isn't relevant to the idea itself.

They absolutely are relevant, becasue the numbers determine what the system actually ends up doing. Is it intended to represent a potential increase in damage after fighting for long enough? Or is it meant solely to be a gate on early damage in a fight? Numbers are the factor that determines that.

Besides, 3/5 of my post had nothing to do with numbers. I criticized the design of making crit attack speed based, and I maintain those criticism.

without really changing the play style of marksmen since they will still be basic attacking from range like always

No, as I made a point of, it's a significant change in playstyle, because it encourages autoattacking the same target once you've built up stacks on them. There are carries who very much don't want to do that. Mobile, bursty carries are encouraged to switch targets based on openings in the fight, but this discourages and punishes that. Assassin type carries are supposed to threaten the backlines, which harder if your first attacks are strictly weaker. It also encourages attack speed based builds, because AD focused crit builds will suck dick from not being able to stack fast enough to make crit worthwhile.

If you want something that doesn't change playstyles, then it's very, very simple: %damage increase to autoattacks. Mathematically the same expected dps, and doesn't favor anybody. It's better than OP's proposal.

and no this doesn't make armorpen builds the new standard crit would still result in higher dps

If the first 3 autoattacks of a fight are strictly weaker than they are on live, then it absolutely will put pressure on carries to use armor penetration builds. It doesn't matter if it eventually builds up to slightly superior dps if it is strictly weaker every time you attack a new target. Ability focused builds are already only slightly off of being the norm for a lot of AD carries. This could easily push them over the edge.

It might even lead to more viable build options as well since you could just sit on that one infinity edge and still use it to amp up your dps big time whilst leaving room to buy different attack speed and ad items you would otherwise not really build

This is just so wrong. I have so many criticisms of this one sentence. It makes so many bad assumptions.

There is not a single reason to believe that a playstyle restriction would open up item options. There has never been a point in league's history where restrictions on playstyles opened up options. The game's design disallows that.

Let's enumerate why. First, sitting on one crit item will be worse than before, not better. If you're required to build stacks on enemies in order to make crit effective, then the last thing you want to do is go for low attack speed builds, but high attack speed requires that you buy crit. I'm not going to buy an attack speed reliant dps steroid without actually buying attack speed, and that requires buying more crit.

Second, what "different attack speed and ad items" are you thinking of? For attack speed, are you thinking of zeal items? Because, if you are, you can already stack those. The only other ones are BotRK and Wit's End, and these changes aren't making them any less crappy/situational. As for AD items, you'd still pick those up third or fourth, just like you do now. The only difference is that you won't possibly get them second in any situation because you NEED attack speed to make your early crit effective. All this does is limit a potential option.

I seriously don't think you thought about the items at all when you said that.

Third, there is nothing new about crit being a dps amp. Crit already is a DPS amp. That is explicitly its purpose. 20% crit is a 20% boost to dps. And yet, you don't see people sitting on one crit item on live, because it's mathematically inefficient. If you're looking to maximize dps, then there is a mathematical forumla for how much crit is needed. Having a ramp up doesn't change that. It doesn't make it any more rewarding to sit on one crit item. Maximizing dps will still require multiple items, particularly since all the attack speed items that are viable for a carry to purchase have crit.

Why do you think this would open up build options? Do you have a reason? Are you just thinking that because it's a change, it would open up more options? What's your justification?

ROYALR3IGNNov 7, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Reason the armor pen build is so good is because of the burst you get givibg squishies little to no time to react before blowing up. Riot wants adcs to be sustained damage dealers (except a few cases) and reworking crit from rng to something more predictable and playable for all players is healthier.

Would you rather Vayne get 2 lucky crits with IE Shiv and blow the adc up or would you like to see and play around the moment of power? Think Darius, disengage when close to 5 stacks or 5 stacks but go ham whrn he isnt 5 stacks and is killable.

These crit changes would be different for select champione if they dont get reworked anytime soon or changed like Tryndamere and Jhin.

Armor pen is less bursty than crit. A squishy is less likely to be stacking armor so the armor pen stats would be kinda wasted for bursting down squishies. Crit on the other hand can be very handy in bursting down squishies because they have no real armor.

NineTailedMysticNov 8, 20163 votes

[deleted]

Jinzo TorranceNov 8, 20163 votes

What? No.

Armor Penetration cannot bring someone armor under 0, that's Armor Reduction.

Vellich0rNov 8, 20162 votes

It can, they can have negative effective armor meaning they take bonus damage instead of reduced damage. It used to be easy with abyssal liandries to drop minions to negative mr, and some jungle creeps are balanced having negative MR. Just a little fun fact.

Pop000100Nov 8, 20162 votes

Armor(MR) Pen cant, Armor(MR) Reduction(Corki's gattling gun, nasus e) can.

Lol Wiki Link

Vellich0rNov 15, 20161 votes

My mistake ^.^

Pop000100Nov 15, 20161 votes

No problem :P

PlanetWarwickNov 7, 20167 votes

Fervor

ZelorxonNov 7, 20165 votes

that's a dumb idea for a billion of reasons
THEY ALREADY DID, that's why we don't have 80/100 ad items like before but instead we have 70%-100% crits, remember last season worlds? where jinx critted for like 1200 or something (when even) and people was spamming the numbers in twitch chat? now a crit barely does 800 to a champion.

NineTailedMysticNov 8, 20162 votes

Oh no. 800.

GULAG 4 UNov 8, 20164 votes

800 vs 1200 before armor is huge you mage main.

NineTailedMysticNov 9, 20161 votes

Except he said

where jinx critted for like 1200 or something (when even) and people was spamming the numbers in twitch chat? now a crit barely does 800 to a champion.

Implying it was after armor.

Sightless66Nov 7, 20163 votes

It's not really so much of a rework to crit as it is a straight nerf. Right now, every point in crit equals a 1% increase in a champion's expected dps. Your proposal would change that 1% crit would only equal a 1% increase to dps after you've already autoattacked a champion 4 times. That's just strictly weaker.

If we wanted to change crit so that it wasn't RNG based, the best option is to just change it to a %damage increase for autoattacks. 1% crit would equal 1% higher autoattack damage. That would have literally exactly the same dps as the expected dps that the current crit system has, while removing the potential for incredibly lucky or unlucky streaks.

Or, is majorly nerfing crit the goal of your proposed changes? You didn't say it was, so I'm assuming it isn't, but I could be misunderstanding you.

Terminus EdgeNov 7, 20162 votes

{quoted}

If we wanted to change crit so that it wasn't RNG based, the best option is to just change it to a %damage increase for autoattacks. 1% crit would equal 1% higher autoattack damage. That would have literally exactly the same dps as the expected dps that the current crit system has, while removing the potential for incredibly lucky or unlucky streaks.

It's not quite as simple as just changing it directly, due to skills that don't scale as linearly off of critical chance, like Yi's Q or Garen's E.

I do like the idea, though, and you could call the stat Precision rather than Critical Strike Chance.

Precision: Your basic attack AD ratio is increased by your Precision, up to a maximum of +100.

Infinity Edge would increase both your current Precision and the cap by 50%, preserving its current functionality more or less.

Sightless66Nov 7, 20162 votes

It's not quite as simple as just changing it directly, due to skills that don't scale as linearly off of critical chance, like Yi's Q or Garen's E.

It is that simple for almost everyone. The same changes will ensure the exact same expected DPS for those abilities as well.

Take Garen: say his spin is doing 100 damage per tick, ticks 10 times, and that he has 50% crit chance. Keep in mind that Garen's E crits add 50% damage instead of 100.

With the current system, we expect 5 hits for 100 damage, and 5 crits for 150 damage, leading to a total damage of 1,250. With a % increase system, all of his ticks would have an increase of 25% (50% crit * 0.5 crit damage modifier) equaling 125 per hit, for a toal of 1,250.

We can make this work for any ability that increases its damage based on critical chance, and we can make it work with any crit damage modifier too.

The only abilities we would have to adjust are abilities that provide a specific non-damage bonus when you crit (Trynd getting more fury on a crit), or if someone is heavily based on "crit-fishing" gameplay (Trynd's laning phase). Unless you have one of those conditions, the power difference between having a crit-based damage increase or having a consistent damage increase is very, very small. Basically, we'd have to look at Trynd.

Pierce The VealNov 7, 20162 votes

I'd just be happy if we had less AS/Crit items. Really, do we really need FOUR?

EbonyBladeJ88Nov 8, 20162 votes

{quoted}

I'd just be happy if we had less AS/Crit items. Really, do we really need FOUR?

FOUR crit items. No wonder I see Jhin players going 100% Crit.

Jhin : Ah.. Yes. 100% Crit with 4 items. Critical Perfection.

notice me Sin piNov 7, 20162 votes

Jhin i see 4, and i like it

warpenguin555Nov 7, 20161 votes

I think this has potential but it kinda forces Jhin into only playing armor pen builds. But you already mentioned that below. Looks good to me

Tychusfindlay919Nov 7, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I think this has potential but it kinda forces Jhin into only playing armor pen builds. But you already mentioned that below. Looks good to me

Jhin breaks a lot of the rules for ADCs, the most prominent rule being that an ADC is a sustained damage threat, whereas everything in Jhin's kit screams big-ass assassin who also happens to have range instead of mobility.

In any case, I don't think this really ruins Jhin at all. Ramp-up damage with his hilariously high AD sounds pretty damn good, even if it may not be as great as it is now, it's really damn good. Not to mention Jhin will never be able to make something like black cleaver work, not with his current kit.

reaperteaserNov 7, 20161 votes

i think all marksmen should have an ammo system and should continuasly perchase arrows/bolts/bullets

Terminus EdgeNov 7, 20161 votes

Yi's Q is a bit of an outlier since it adds a flat 60% AD in bonus damage when it crits, rather than the damage being boosted by a percentage.

With 20% RNG crit and five Alpha Strikes, you expect to get the 60% AD bonus damage once. With 20% non-RNG crit, each Alpha Strike would need to deal 12% AD in bonus damage to equal out.

So, basically, Alpha Strike's AD ratio with non-RNG crit (which I'm still calling Precision) would have to be 100 + (Precision x 0.6)% AD, correct?

HazyCloud7Nov 7, 20161 votes

This would be such a gigantic nerf to adcs.

I'm 100% in favor of reducing their burst in favor of DPS, but numbers wise this would be a gigantic nerf to both burst and DPS. Normally a trist with 100% crit would deal 500 because of IE, so 4 of those autos = 2000 damage. Look at how much of a loss in DPS your suggestion would result in.

Hinagiku33Nov 8, 20161 votes

I was thinking more like the % version of the Armor Pen > Lethality changes.

Assassins and Fighters like Flat Armor Penetration because it's really strong against low armor targets like Marksmen. Riot decided to reduce it's early game snowball potential by altering the stat to reduce armor based on the target's level. So it's still Flat Armor Penetration, but now it won't be as effective on the poor Support that is 3 levels behind and is weaker overall early game in exchange for higher values late game.

I think this can work on Critical Strike too.

Something like a % Bonus Armor shred on Critical Hits. I would still keep the pseudo-RNG element since the unreliability is important in keeping it a late game stat. Obviously, the effect can be powerful if it isn't on every hit early-mid game and having that powerful effect on basically every hit late game is fine if it's balanced around it. This should do 3 things:

By making Critical Strike affect only Bonus Armor, it means that Critical Hits in the early game before anyone buys armor do barely any extra damage. This eliminates the "unfair" feeling you get when a huge burst of damage hits you in lane and makes those 1% Crit Chance runes worthless early game.

By making Critical Strike do % shred, it makes Critical Strike a powerful tank busting stat since it negates damage reduction from armor stacking rather than doing a huge burst of flat physical damage that vaporizes squishy champs.

By keeping the pseudo-RNG element, it keeps Critical Strike as a late game stat since the damage boost is powerful but reliable until you stack multiple sources of Crit Chance. This helps keep armor a strong option until later in the game and lets Fighters and Tanks have stronger defense in the mid game while still letting Marksmen carry late.

If needed, you could even make Critical Hits into a stacking shred which each Crit reduces Bonus Armor by X% for Y Seconds (only for the one scoring Crits, not the whole team). This could be a good way to balance with the Last Whisper items which don't need to be stacked but can be rebalanced to not reduce Bonus Armor as much depending on if it stacks with Critical Strike or becomes mutually exclusive.

MonkeyMadnessNov 8, 20161 votes

Sooo extra Fervor?

The DeckownerNov 8, 20161 votes

so basically a more op version of rageblade?

DengedenNov 8, 20161 votes

Did you mean: Fervor of Battle?

There's a reason Darius falls off late. This would be way too easy to kite. You'd see nothing but champions that rush Triforce or BorK and use Zeal items for the passives first and the crit third.

RisenDarkKnightNov 8, 20161 votes

I agree with the general idea, but the numbers you have are too low. You are basically making the marksman's first 3 autos pretty worthless with crit build, so they'll just build armor pen or triforce instead of crit. The value either has to keep ramping up past 200% damage or it has to ramp faster (like maybe full damage on the second shot, not the 4th). Right now you'd just be nerfing crit into unviability.

Maybe make it so you build up 25% crit per auto? So like with 25% crit, you'd start dealing 200% damage after 4 autos, 50% crit 3 autos, 75% crit 2 autos, and 100% crit would work like live where every auto does full damage. That way the pattern is consistent rather than random. IDK.

Critmaster GarenNov 8, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Crit should be changed from being rng to being something that ramps your damage but faster with more crit.

What I mean: Crit chance gives each auto after the first on enemy champions and epic monsters within 5 seconds but constantly refreshing on every auto a % increase in auto attack damage by 1/3 of your crit until your 4th auto which makes all your autos do %increased damage equal to crit. Example below of how this works:

has 200 total AD, 100% crit chance, and is attacking a . If we ignore resistances her first auto deals 200 damage, her second auto deals 266 damage, 3rd auto deals 334 damage, and her 4th auto and beyond deals 400 damage.

An idea i thought of while looking at Darius bleed.

darius can be denied his 5th stack by rotating through tanking him.
darius theat range is smaller, which additionally increases his difficulty in building 5 stacks. you can dive in and out of the threat range of a darius more easily than the one of a marksman.
darius scales incredibly shitty with as, and his ability to build stacks is pretty heavily gated by his slow auto attacks and his cooldowns.

if you wanted to transfer the concept 1:1 on marksmen, then theyd have to build those stacks for each champion individually, unless they reach 5 stacks on one champion, in which case theyd instantly apply them.

but they can only build stacks against enemies at a minimum distance from them.

there would also be 1 second cooldown against the same person on stacks, but they could be applied to multiple targets.

if you read this and think that this is ridiculous, remember this next time you want to complain about darius.

StephenizgodNov 8, 20161 votes

I also proposed a change to crits, but I went with removing the RNG and keeping the burst. It was not well liked haha... Crit changes make ADC players angry automatically. However I can see 1 problem with your rework and that is lack of damage. They wouldn't even build Crit in this case they would go for armor pen or whatever. Your rework lowers DPS pretty heavily and ADC's pretty much live or die based on their DPS.

Teridax68Nov 8, 20161 votes

I'm not the biggest fan of this, in part because the implementation looks a little fiddly. Just within your system, you'd be better off dividing all of your crit values by 3 and making the autoattack damage increase 1-to-1, and perhaps adding a 3-stack cap on top. My main issue with this, though, is that it kinda defeats both the purpose and feel of crit: critical strikes are supposed to be these awesome explosions of damage that you rack up over time, and this instead creates a ramp-up that leads towards constant damage, which is less interesting. Granted, the current crit system also ends up leading to pretty constant DPS, but this wouldn't be an improvement in that respect.

I personally think a better alternative would be turning crit into a three passive, e.g. deal bonus damage every three autos. It's simple, visible to all, and allows for DPS-based burst, while also being easier to design for. An advantage it has over the above system, too, is that it would be target-specific, meaning you'd have to focus a specific enemy to gain access to crit against them, instead of, say, racking up stacks against frontliners before shifting to the squishy for immediate massive damage.

SlashStrikerNov 8, 20161 votes

how is it going to work on Yi's Alpha Strike? How is it going to work on other abilities that can crit?

another idea is that Critical Strikes your phys damage on basic attacks by % AD if you have 50% crit chance that means you got 150% AD phys damage on basic attacks so if trist got 200 AD she would deal 300 phys damage on each attack

and infinity edge could get changes too For instance your basic attacks deals 50% Bonus ad (old is 50% total AD) as Phys Damage