Hey let's not pretend that Tanks are balanced

Ahristocats·Aug 31, 2017·15 votes·1,039 views

@people complaining about cinderhulk nerf IN NO WAY tanks are balanced right now

i'm sorry but if i play an immobile bruiser i would love to play the game and move, not to be cc'ed forever

right now, tanks are oppressive, even rammus has 53.5% win rate and 6% pick rate they deserve to be nerfed, the only one who aren't dominating the game are malphite sion and nautilus (and ornn but this champ is a meme at this point). Everyone else is sitting at 50% win rate+ and prevents you from moving for at least 3 sec while adcs enjoy to watch you suffering as a bruiser

thanks meddler for that nerf, keep up the good work and hope you hit adcs and supports after world

37 Comments

RavenhaleAug 31, 20173 votes

It's like only 25 health lost. Seems more of a cleaning up numbers than an actual nerf.

AhristocatsAug 31, 20175 votes

cuz world is on the way and meddler doesn't want to do drastic changes

GrizzlpawAug 31, 20173 votes

I wager Rammus specifically has risen to popularity because of just how strong adcs are in this current meta.

In any case, I don't think nerfing tanks is wise. It's not that they're too strong, it's that every other class has been made weaker.

Mages have weaker ap itemization. Assassins were made to kill things much slower. item 3071 nerfs hurt brusers such as Renekton and Darius because marksmen cough Lucian cough MissFortune cough cough Ashe were abusing it to rediculous effect. The list goes on.

Instead of nerfing tanks, I suggest nerfing the godlike defensive combo of item 3190 item 3193 . Buffing actual tank items item 3742 item 3065 , buffing back AP itemization so that mages can actually break through tanks again, for the love of god, making Lethality meele only so that riot can finally buff the stat for its intended users without having to worry about Quinn Jhin Caitlyn Graves MissFortune abusing it, and maybe giving bruisers a bit of love along they way.

Of course that's significantly harder than just nerfing what's currently strong so Riot may just go down the easy route and nerf the strongest tanks.

ModWulf HelhammerAug 31, 20172 votes

And that's why ADCs are popular/strong right now. It's almost as if when a class is strong, their counter becomes popular in order to fight them.

RalanrAug 31, 20177 votes

When are ADCs not popular?

AhristocatsAug 31, 20172 votes

dafuQ?

ADCs are popular because adc are popular, them being popular has nothing to do with tanks. Tanks being played or not won't matter on ADCs being played or not

There are a dozen of champions that can break the face of tanks, ADCs aren't special to that

ModWulf HelhammerAug 31, 20171 votes

You need a damage source to take down tanks. By your own admission, bruiser type champions can't play right now because of all the tank Cc. So that leaves the carries to take them down.

Most mids aren't dps style champs (and the of the ones that are, most are in a very weak state, leaving basically Cass as the only real AP dps). So now you have only one other class that can do enough dps to take down tanks: ADCs.

When you have super strong tanks that don't go down unless focus fired for several seconds, you need the class designed to do that. And then since unless those carries are allowed to survive, the enemy tank line doesn't die, and you lose the game. The natural response to that is to make sure your dps stays alive, through items such as knights vow, locket, and shields. This make sure they stay alive and can take down the enemy tank line, allowing the game to break open.

ErockandrollAug 31, 20171 votes

{quoted}

And that's why ADCs are popular/strong right now. It's almost as if when a class is strong, their counter becomes popular in order to fight them.

I think the problem stems from the fact that ADC's are really the only check and balance against these tanks. What ever happened to Solo lane Duelists? (Fiora) Who would be completely able to shred their HP, and provide a fantastic split push threat?

I thought the who reason we reworked Juggernauts items (fighter items in general) was to allow everyone inbetween "Full Tank" and "Glass cannon" a chance to succeed.

RalanrAug 31, 20172 votes

I'm not sure about that.

I do know that many reworked or new solo lane tanks were designed to actually interact in their lanes rather than farm under tower.

LankPantsAug 31, 20171 votes

I do know that many reworked or new solo lane tanks were designed to actually interact in their lanes rather than farm under tower.

What world are you living in? At best they just mindlessly shove and at worst they farm under tower.

Let's just go back trough recent lane tanks.

Ornn : AoE W and Q to shove out waves, OK early trades but garbage all in, ideally just wants to try to shove you in as long as he can while using his shield to ignore you.

Maokai : Same pattern now as before

Galio : Legit just AoE clears waves, that's all he does in lane. Q and passive are basically dedicated AoE waveclear.

Past that the oldest reworked lane tank would be Poppy.

RalanrAug 31, 20171 votes

I meant intent, not execution. They don't want things to be like old Shen who just last hits with Q under tower.

And how can you forget Sion?

LankPantsAug 31, 20171 votes

And how can you forget Sion?

Sion also just wants to AoE shove waves mindlessly for the most part. He's also older than Poppy by quite a wide margin. That list is chronological.

RalanrAug 31, 20171 votes

Yeah but Sion was a lane tank before Poppy.

As for the AoE waves part, that's what makes Sion a lane bully. Which he's supposed to be.

AnagsSep 4, 20171 votes

Lol, what do you want them to do? They are designed not to 1v1. Their only option at that point is to be a wave clear champ in order to survive lane. Or become supports/junglers.

LankPantsSep 4, 20171 votes

I want them to be able to farm lane and survive with some 1v1 potential when the enemy fucks up, which is pretty much what they do now. I think there's some shitty designs, but I don't think the goal here is wrong.

What I don't think is happening is Riot making tanks more interactive in lane, this makes no sense, a tanks goal is generally not to interact in lane.

skyskee008Aug 31, 20171 votes

{quoted}

And that's why ADCs are popular/strong right now. It's almost as if when a class is strong, their counter becomes popular in order to fight them.

Tanks don't counter ADCs though...?

ModWulf HelhammerAug 31, 20173 votes

ADCs counters tanks. If tanks are strong, you need a source of consistent dps to take them down

RalanrAug 31, 20172 votes

Ok but that's not why people are playing ADCs in general.

AhristocatsAug 31, 20172 votes

that must explain why league always needed adcs

AnagsSep 4, 20171 votes

It couldn't possibly be their objective taking ability/siege potential. And let's not forget their ability to do consistant high aoe damage in team fights.

They are played in every meta regardless if tanks are strong or not.

More importantly they fit into or are necessary for pretty much any team comp.

DrCyanideAug 31, 20172 votes

i'm sorry but if i play an immobile bruiser i would love to play the game and move, not to be cc'ed forever

And how are Cinderhulk changes going to help with that?

RalanrAug 31, 20173 votes

Nerfs decrease incentive to play tanks. Less tanks, less CC.

LankPantsAug 31, 20172 votes

That's not necessarily true anymore TBH.

Durability is a secondary trait of tanks right now, it's nice that they have it and it does hurt them somewhat to lose it but it's not at all why you pick them. You pick tanks because they can output absurd amounts of CC, more than any other class by a country mile.

Losing some durability doesn't really impede this, tanks will still be doing the exact same insane cancer CC thing and even larger durability nerfs than -30 HP won't change their effectiveness. You'd need to lose 200-300 HP before tanks actually start running into trouble in their current state IMO.

RalanrAug 31, 20171 votes

Sometimes it's not the severity of the nerfs but the fact that they got nerfed.

And it's not just tanks that provide CC.

LankPantsAug 31, 20171 votes

And it's not just tanks that provide CC.

No, but they outclass all other classes by far too wide of a margin. There's no way for other CC heavy classes like utility supports or utility mages to even come close to them. There was a point in time when Anivia, Orianna, Zyra, Janna and Nami bought top tier CC, now they can't keep up with any viable tank.

Sometimes it's not the severity of the nerfs but the fact that they got nerfed.

The nerfs aren't severe enough to have any effect. Any nerfs that would be would make tanks garbage, they're too much of a problem class with the amount of CC they're bringing right now. Assuming they're tanky enough to survive and lay down their CC they'll be godlike, if they're not they're worthless. I fail to see any middle ground that could be reached because of just how prohibitive Riot has made tank design.

RalanrAug 31, 20171 votes

Placebo effect is what I'm referring to.

And I'm sorry for the frustrations the class has caused you. I don't believe being overly negative about it in every post you have on the subject is healthy however.

LankPantsAug 31, 20171 votes

Placebo effect is what I'm referring to.

If we're talking about pro play, there is no placebo. I doubt that -30 HP on Cinder's big enough for the average player to care anyway though.

And I'm sorry for the frustrations the class has caused you. I don't believe being overly negative about it in every post you have on the subject is healthy however.

Maybe I'd be positive if there was something positive in the whole damn rework.

RalanrAug 31, 20171 votes

Placebo is stronger than you think.

And yeah, the tank update did screw over bruiser itemization. That shows a problem with class item diversity in general.

LankPantsAug 31, 20172 votes

Tanks are broken by design right now, you could straight up remove several core items and they'd still be cancer to play against and likely still quite strong. What tanks actually need are reverts and reworks to remove some of the cancerous super high CC champs who've been introduced since the tank rework. I don't personally believe the itemisation is at all out of line, it's just the champ design that's utterly broken.

Regardless people are more pissed at the hypocrisy Riot's willing to demonstrate here where they immediately crack down on one broken aspect of the game while ignoring another one that's even more busted. As it turns out nothing pisses people off quite as fast as hypocrisy.

Critmaster GarenAug 31, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=i am Rubick Sama,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=comfiyHE,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-08-31T18:35:36.299+0000)

@people complaining about cinderhulk nerf IN NO WAY tanks are balanced right now

i'm sorry but if i play an immobile bruiser i would love to play the game and move, not to be cc'ed forever

right now, tanks are oppressive, even rammus has 53.5% win rate and 6% pick rate they deserve to be nerfed, the only one who aren't dominating the game are malphite sion and nautilus (and ornn but this champ is a meme at this point). Everyone else is sitting at 50% win rate+ and prevents you from moving for at least 3 sec while adcs enjoy to watch you suffering as a bruiser

thanks meddler for that nerf, keep up the good work and hope you hit adcs and supports after world

to be fair, 53% winrate is not too crazy. darius has been sitting at that winrate for almost a year during season 6. other champions have had higher win rates with high pick rates for long times and were never really touched (ahri).

tanks are definitely strong, but im not sure if theyre too strong. much like supports, tanks effectiveness is tied to their carries. youre not going to die to tank cc alone.

i think part of the reasons tanks are so strong is because adc are too strong. a tank wont 1v1 a fighter on his own. but the damage that marksmen are currently dishing out means that getting cced by tanks in group fight scenarios is a death sentence even for beefier champions when a marksman is sitting behind them.

Mens Hair ClubAug 31, 20171 votes

tanks need a direct nerf not this wimpy cinder nerf

FireDrizzleAug 31, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=i am Rubick Sama,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=comfiyHE,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-08-31T18:35:36.299+0000) they deserve to be nerfed, the only one who aren't dominating the game are malphite sion and nautilus

I think Sion is great when you aren't hard countered by the enemy comp. Outside of Malphs obscene mana costs early I think Nautilus and Malphite are fine. There is a chance of messing up for players and that may affect their popularity. Unlike Maokai mr" I guess I'll tap w on a carry, tap r and throw a sapling behind them". If Mao was much harder to play he may be poor vs hypermobility like Sion though. Still I don't see the point in tank reworks to add "skill expression" when you have an easy to use impactful ult like that. Rework bs champs like Ekko Gnar Corki Hecarim Vayne Quinn Kled

BellowsAug 31, 20171 votes

Tanks are fine. The only thing I see myself having issues is with adc's. NOT EVEN SUPPORTS, just adc's.

Ofcourse I'm not denying Janna and lulu s power, but adc's are stupid atm.

SalsonAug 31, 20171 votes

But tanks rush item 3068 and item 3025 and deal sooooo much damage, which is bad.....for some reason. Well there you go, fresh new itemization so you can be support number 3.