Boards›Gameplay

I just remembered the main reason this snowball meta never seems to end.

Valhalla Rising··28 votes·1,979 views

The big vision nerf a while back(someone link patch?).

It happened quite a while ago at this point so I can't remember every detail but I can point out a couple things that are clearly having significant impact in the game to this day.

One: Removal of purchasable stealth wards. I think that yea, being able to buy 3 of them was a big too much but completely removing them was a hard f-you to anyone who loses lane to an early gank. E.g. Mid lane gets ganked early, proceeds to lose their turret, before they could buy a stealth ward or 2 so they could "attempt" to safely farm without giving up more kill blood, but sadly the more common scenario today is they just keep feeding because the only other option is to lose all farm.

Two: Sightstone ward duration nerfs. So you just make the nearly mandatory gold sink less useful while keeping the cost the same? Rito cares about supps so hard... p.s. still have to recall just to keep up vision...

Two point five:(boards wont stop auto bulleting my ish). Trinks were adjusted to suck early as well.

Basically, all these changes did was make it hyper easy for busted junglers like LeeSin and Khazix to make cheesy early ganks which made a player completely irrelevant for the majority if not entirety of the game. And while at first I didn't think much of it, I just don't understand how this stupid cheesy insta-lose meta has been allowed to continue for so long.

you got 10 players per game rito, the match shouldn't be determined by 1 Jungler's cheesy gank creating an avalanche.

My suggestion would be to allow the purchase of 1 if not 2 stealth wards, but similar to Control wards, they would be unique and only 1 could be active on the field at a time.

This would be enough for an unlucky mid laner who lost their turret early, to be able to buy 1 pink and 1 stealth ward to rotate while their trink recharged.

There's is what, 50+ bushes in the game and various non-bush places that are useful to ward? Being allowed to spend 75g for 1 extra 2.5 min duration stealth ward would definitely be fair.

P.s. Now that I got that off my chest I can finish making my coffee..

19 Comments

WoonStruck13 votes

While I agree that removing so much vision was a poor decision, that's not why the snowball meta isn't ending.

There is a LOT more wrong with the game than just vision.

Earl Eulrich1 votes

there´s surly a lot more wrong with the game, but i tend to agree that vision is the most important issue if this game ever wants to get back on a positive track...a lack of vision just leads to a lack of strategic diversity and thus to the game getting repetitive and boring faster and faster (as is...right now you can only ward one objective halfway solidly, so about all games that don´t snowball out of control ocmpletly are deceided by baron sooner or later, as splitpushing on even footing or fishing for picks is just too risky without proper vision) - and it disables the team that is losing to set up any kind of play for a comeback, as they most of the times can´t even ward their own jungle properlyonce the first line of turrets is gone...so ofc they fall farther and farther behind vs any sort of halfway competent team.

PB4UAME1 votes

I would say this is a glaring design flaw that exacerbates and multiples the other factors that contribute to snowballing.

Yeah damage needs to be cut in half, and tank stats need to actually be worth the gold to purchase them again. Yes RIOT plays blatant favortism and needs to actually balance their roster.

But, you can avoid those champions and a lot of their damage if you could only have more vision on the map.

Golden Tager X7 votes

The snowball meta has been setting up ever since riot decided everyone needed a dash, and that every ability needs instant gratification.

Everything becomes so instant that one misposition and that talon with item 3134 took 80% of your health, why, because his damage had to instant.

III BAKURYU III 6 votes

Yeah, item 3649 was honestly my favorite ward because

  • It didn't get noticed by just walking over the damn thing like item 2055 does/pink.

  • Players saw the map like a Christmas tree Having multiple wards helped with feeders because at least you could see the ganks coming and could react accordingly or something to counter the ganks.

With item 2055 it makes item 3341 useless until upgraded and even then by level 9 to purchase it, kills are around the 30's total so sweeping wards are least of your worries.

Even with Pinks back in the day if they weren't in the bush they were even more useless, and it was even more obvious because of those reason where they were without even looking. With item 3649 you could place it near top bush without it being in the bush near top/blue side and in most cases swept out by Sweeper/Jungler so you could see them sweeping etc without them seeing it so you could trick them that you didn't have a ward placed and potentially waste their time.

Eedat4 votes

Not sure what you're talking about. Vision changes were straight up an anti snowball feature. I've explained this many times before. It came down to with the old vision system that the team that was ahead could afford more wards. The support of the ahead team would clear out all your team's vision with Oracle's and you couldn't even contest it really.

Don't feel like giving the whole spiel for a tenth time.

Anyway, the vision changes you are trying to present as a snowball feature are the complete opposite

Valhalla Rising6 votes

{quoted}

Not sure what you're talking about. Vision changes were straight up an anti snowball feature. I've explained this many times before. It came down to with the old vision system that the team that was ahead could afford more wards. The support of the ahead team would clear out all your team's vision with Oracle's and you couldn't even contest it really.

Don't feel like giving the whole spiel for a tenth time.

Anyway, the vision changes you are trying to present as a snowball feature are the complete opposite

Im confident the majority of the player base would rather take the chance of having their ward killed than getting camped or completely starved.

Eedat6 votes

You're not seeing the whole picture. Where are you getting this gold to buy wards when you're already behind? Are you just not buying any items or what? Trinkets were introduced so that even if you were behind, you still had access to the same level of vision as your opponent

The vision changes were straight up anti snowball features. Trying to present it as something that made the game more snowbally is absolutely ridiculous and pure misinformation. The old vision stem favored the team that was already ahead heavily

PB4UAME1 votes

You aren't seeing the whole picture either. You are missing the fact that vision does not affect all champion the same. For example, if a Malzahar flashes over raptor wall and ults your midlaner just out of tower range, and blows them up in the duration of their CC with the help of their mid, there's about fuck-all you can do to stop it once it has happened. However, if you had a ward in river to see the Malz walk into your jungle to set up for this play, you can then take steps to prevent the all in 100-0 you now suspect is coming.

In comparison, you try to ward against a Zac, and he can most likely still gapclose on you and CC lock you over the ward range. Additionally, tanky low damage characters tend to be less of a threat when they come from FoW (baring cases where they are a hard counter to you, or super fed/you're super behind ofc) than assassins, skirmishers and carries who can then kill most other champions in 2-4 seconds once they are in range.

Then, add on the additional layer of nerfing defenses, buffing offenses, massive buffs to offensive and damage dealing masteries, the introduction of keystones, introduction of LDR, EoN (which by itself much further increases how bullshit assassins, carries and skirmishers are when they pop out of FoW, as now they have an additional spell shield to make your reactions even fucking more useless. Oh, and they are able to charge that shield while out of vision so by the time you can see them (without a ward) you're already basically dead) and lethality all make damage much more prevalent than it has ever been.

Having more vision would lead to at least the possibility of avoiding more damage in a game that is currently flooded and drowning in damage as is.

PB4UAME1 votes

Oh, and we also got a global passive gold increase since the vision removal making the cost of a ward (only 75g) even less of an issue since then.

Eedat1 votes

#You are still completely missing the point

The way vision worked before YOU COULD NOT AFFORD WARDS IF YOU WERE BEHIND. This was a major problem at the time. If you were behind, you either had to spend the little gold you had on wards which made you absolutely worthless or go with absolutely zero vision what so ever. Wards cost gold. They were not free. How do you buy these wards with no gold? How many times can you go back to base to buy nothing but wards and potions?

The trinket changes gave you FREE vision that is on par with the enemy that is ahead. You dont have to sink yourself even further into the hole by being forced to waste the little gold you have on wards

Sire Hippington4 votes

preseason six is when it all went down, the map got darg, keystones entered the rift and towers went to shit whild goldgain changes hit aswell while damagecreep accelrated alot. All that happened when contributed to snowballiness, and while some got (partially) fixed, other stuff got worse. However, vision is certainly one of the main contributors to snowballiness since then. First tower had ~70% winrate even befor towerf first-blood, because the mapcontroll you gain from takeing towers is absurd in a world with little to no vision. It's also a big reason why multiman towerdives are as efficient and junglers have generally so huge impact, as it's near impossible to get the needed vision early on to see such shit comming, and for sololaners it's simply not possible to get proper vision against ganks at all.

I'm not neccesariely for the good ol 75g ward, as vision tied to gold also is snowbally, but atleast trinkets should get worth something again, and sightstone should finally gain stacks over time on top of the refill on back. No shit people dislike playing support if you have to recall 24/7 with full health and mana just to provide a baseline of vision.

Gnart Even Close3 votes

eh just buff trinkets, sighstone, and tracker's knife. add in an item slot for pink wards as well, and we're all set. now you can have pink wards late game, supports aren't put at a disadvantage compared to yellow trinket, and junglers can opt for utility or for ganking/dueling and rely on sweepers/yellow trinket/control wards for vision control. we don't need more consumable vision to delay builds

TheDelighted1 votes

Just give two wards to the warding trinket at start, and slightly increase the cooldown of early levels.

Ariel the Cruel1 votes

Unrelated, but I had a game the other day where the vision coverage was just beautiful.

Interestingly, it occurred because our Support wasn't warding at all.

In response, ADC, jungle, and mid (me) all bought sightstone. We lit the map up like it was S2 all over again!

Quepha1 votes

Do you really think snowballing didn't exist before the vision update? reducing the power of vision and de-coupling vision power from gold levels actually allows for more turnarounds because it creates more unknowns on the field that a team who's behind can possibly exploit while also removing vision as an advantage the leading team would have.

If the whole map was revealed and there were no surprises possible, then the team with a lead would almost always win as there's no way to surprise them. If there are limits to vision on the field then there's always a chance that the behind team can five-man-bush-cheese and try to get back into the game with a pick.

Mighty Mortein1 votes

I don't know about you, but I want a slot only for control wards so that when I'm a full build support in like 35 minutes (or nearing full build), I have to just use sweepers to "reveal" camouflage champions. Hell, even if a ruby sightstone had a guaranteed control ward in it (3 vision wards + control ward), i'd take that. Maybe up the gold cost. But I feel like camouflaged champions almost have free reign like invisible champions when people are nearing full builds and only the support has an oracle's.

deadlychuck1 votes

Something that needs to be made clear. Most global mechanical changes riot makes to the game is intended to increase snowballing, as a means of reducing game time. This is what the market pressure from china, namely tencent, is demanding.

They want shorter games, which are decided faster, so that they can get more in while paying for an hourly rate for internet. The question is, how much can you cater to that specific market's demands, before the losses from the other markets (which almost universally function differently) outweigh the gains from that market.

Sadly i think riot has crossed that line quite a while ago, but it's so far beyond that people are now starting to notice how bad it's actually gotten.

More from Gameplay

3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay764 comments
7,167
votes
3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay156 comments
3,510
votes
UPVOTE FOR URF
Gameplay606 comments
2,440
votes
Yes plz.
Gameplay456 comments
1,721
votes
3 Refunds per season, up vote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay114 comments
1,716
votes
When is ANYONE at riot going to address the awful new player experience?
Gameplay634 comments
1,383
votes

More by Valhalla Rising

My worst experience in league is still from when I was lvl 7ish
Gameplay125 comments
211
votes
Trolling because one of your allies is going off-meta is so much worse than just meta breaking
[ARCHIVED] Miscellaneous168 comments
177
votes
Iceborn Gauntlets+Hecarim Devistating Charge interaction
Gameplay26 comments
167
votes
Daily reminder to nerf Troll Pole
Gameplay51 comments
157
votes
To the people who wombo minions from 100-0 when Im right next to them with 4 stacks of Spoils of War
Memes & Games40 comments
154
votes
Noob question here
Gameplay66 comments
147
votes