if you struggle vs Illaoi then you're probably playing wrong

Moody P··5 votes·4,982 views

Illaoi is the fairest champion in the game, actually too fair and never once denying you agency in the matchup despite requiring more work to fill her win conditions than any other champion in the game

this is triply true for any non-tank because the only lanes she should reasonably expect to win without explicitly being a much better player (or winning off the enemy's lack of matchup knowledge) are fat immobile tanks like Ornn and Maokai, and the tiny handful of champions who are even worse early game than she is - Nasus and Camille come to mind.

If you're playing a fighter or a ranged top and losing to this champion then you should reevaluate what you're doing and how you managed to do it so wrong.

34 Comments

WøOxer7 votes

Disagree, you literally can't go all in against her.

U have to wait till she wastes E and then go in. That's what all Illaoi's players do waiting for engage so u can E and,Q,R and thats it melt u in a second.

Moody P2 votes

You have multiple options at every stage of this interaction.

  • dodge E and go in
  • bait R and then leave; without R she is helpless, especially if your jungle is involved
  • go in as soon as she Es, even if she's going to hit you; she can't burst combo if she's CC'd before she can move again, and given that every fighter in the game has means of attacking multiple times in quick succession, whether it's AA resets, ability combos, or just high attack speed, she will have very little time to try to fish for double-hits, if you didn't erase the spirit entirely; when laning is considered, Illaoi can not fight you without landing E unless she has a 3 tentacle nest around her.
  • Illaoi isn't a threat even if she landed E without at least one additional tentacle near her prior. Her hitting an empty E with no passive backup is a free kill in laning.
  • If you can't do any of this then you picked a tank and you're not supposed to beat a champion who's dedicated to stomping tanks. Don't put yourself in a position to eat Es all day and back up if you get hooked. The Vessel minigame doesn't do anything.

I don't know if you're misinformed or deliberately lying, but Illaoi can never put you in an unfair situation on her own.

WøOxer3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cnyloLXp,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2018-12-21T11:36:10.288+0000)

You have multiple options at every stage of this interaction.

  • dodge E and go in
  • bait R and then leave; without R she is helpless, especially if your jungle is involved
  • go in as soon as she Es, even if she's going to hit you; she can't burst combo if she's CC'd before she can move again, and given that every fighter in the game has means of attacking multiple times in quick succession, whether it's AA resets, ability combos, or just high attack speed, she will have very little time to try to fish for double-hits, if you didn't erase the spirit entirely; when laning is considered, Illaoi can not fight you without landing E unless she has a 3 tentacle nest around her.
  • Illaoi isn't a threat even if she landed E without at least one additional tentacle near her prior. Her hitting an empty E with no passive backup is a free kill in laning.
  • If you can't do any of this then you picked a tank and you're not supposed to beat a champion who's dedicated to stomping tanks. Don't put yourself in a position to eat Es all day and back up if you get hooked. The Vessel minigame doesn't do anything.

I don't know if you're misinformed or deliberately lying, but Illaoi can never put you in an unfair situation on her own.

So how I supposed to get rid off her tentacles?

If I try to touch her tentacles she literally can freely poke me.

Moody P1 votes

If she's made a habit of throwing Qs or Es when you get near her tentacles then just walk over to it and back off. Her spells are delayed and she's made herself predictable. If she was dumb enough to throw an E like that then you both take down a tentacle and have a generous window to all-in her that you should take advantage of immediately.

This isn't to mention that Illaoi has the worst pre-3 in the entire top lane and anyone who has a good lvl 2-3 all in can destroy her if she does anything other than sit back and grab occasional farm with Q.

chipndip11 votes

{quoted}

So how I supposed to get rid off her tentacles?

If I try to touch her tentacles she literally can freely poke me.

...hit them after you dodge the slam.

Like wtf is this?

chipndip12 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cnyloLXp,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2018-12-21T11:36:10.288+0000)

You have multiple options at every stage of this interaction.

  • dodge E and go in
  • bait R and then leave; without R she is helpless, especially if your jungle is involved

In a community that doesn't know how to bait Akali W, then beat the shit out of her for 21 seconds while she has no defensive tools...you want them to bait out Illaoi R?

The Ecdysiast2 votes

I don't know if you're misinformed or deliberately lying, but Illaoi can put you in an unfair situation on her own.

ØrnnToGetTrolleÐ4 votes

A broken champion (mobility and damage-wise) is far healthier than a champion with bullshit hitboxes.

Illaoi is one of them. I cannot dodge anything she throws at me. Never beaten her in lane. I just cant. I suck I guess.

-Salty player

:(

Moody P1 votes

that's riot's fault for having shitty indicators that lie to you

every champion with a hook is like that, at least Illaoi doesn't turn it into a stunlock and autokill

xDogMeatx1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cnyloLXp,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2018-12-21T12:37:35.700+0000)

that's riot's fault for having shitty indicators that lie to you

every champion with a hook is like that, at least Illaoi doesn't turn it into a stunlock and autokill

thats true she does give you a option to stay and defend your ghost or accept the slow or she can do the 0 counterplay basically forget the ghost and ram at you using phage as a excuse to get hyper fast off your ghost but you wont die in one rotation nothing in her getup involves (lel i gibbed you without fighting back) stuns and afking cc. ill admit she is annoying but i could classify her as a unstoppable force in terms of durability the only issue is that you have to redirect that force constantly in a skillful manner with hard hitters like fiora or mundo due to their ms speed (we are talking melee types here.) there is also jax that has that condition too but hes a little too straightforward after lvl 6 lol. in other words illaoi is literally shouting her counterplay every q (MOVE!!!) then boom hits ground. honestly how fast do you need to be to avoid a straight q when your in the radius. moving horizontally of course

The Ecdysiast2 votes

See, the problem with that is if your lies were true, then she'd have terrible performance in high level play.

She doesn't.

But hey, juggernaut mains always wanna pretend their champions aren't specifically designed to easily take on multiple opponents. I'm sure it makes them feel like they're really good to lie and act like the champion isn't designed that way.

Moody P1 votes

"muh winrate"

Illaoi's performance is inflated by having a fair deal of nuance to all the interactions in her kit - as well as generally thriving in the uncoordinated environment of soloQ. Illaoi will never have a terrible winrate because good Illaoi players abuse the power that soloQ gives them - the same reason Shaco has a massively inflated winrate across most ELOs even though there's like 3 Challenger Shaco mains across all of the good regions and nobody that's in those high ELOs would say he's strong or OP.

Your straw man is sad

The Ecdysiast2 votes

It's not a strawman. You, that one Mord main guy who complains about him from time to time, etc. very often make threads claiming that champions who were specifically designed to act as raid bosses in a type of game that doesn't suit such a thing are actually fair and balance, contrary to evidence.

Not only do you not know argument terminology, you just plain don't know how to analyze evidence. The fact her kit relies on simple mechanics (what you want to paint in your favor by calling "nuance"), and the fact she performs poorly if and only if the team is highly coordinated are evidence against any claim that she's difficult.

Once you yourself are a professional player, then you can use the fact pros can easily stop her as evidence. But until then, you've no choice but to adhere to the fact that she's very easy.

I don't need to resort to outright false interpretations of evidence or baseless attempts at insults. Nor am I the kind of child who has to make a thread saying, "lol it's so easy to beat my champ I must be super good, you're all idiots."

Moody P1 votes

Not only do you not know argument terminology, you just plain don't know how to analyze evidence. The fact her kit relies on simple mechanics (what you want to paint in your favor by calling "nuance"), and the fact she performs poorly if and only if the team is highly coordinated are evidence against any claim that she's difficult.

Illaoi has one of the highest winrate deltas across top laners; if I recall right she's top 7 with a beginning w/r of about 46 and a "mastered" averaging around 57%, close to what Singed performs at when mastered but without the steep beginning curve. The other higher deltas are from champions who start at absurdly low numbers due to mechanical requirements or from being relatively different from the rest of the game. In fact most of the champions with the best performances at "mastered" levels of play are not your precious "muhchanics" champions but are exactly like Illaoi; macro-focused with mechanically simple kits like Aurelion Sol and Singed.

Illaoi happening to be very exploitative of weak players is not any testament to her ease of use. You being a weak player is not an argument against her difficulty.

I don't need to resort to outright false interpretations of evidence or baseless attempts at insults. Nor am I the kind of child who has to make a thread saying, "lol it's so easy to beat my champ I must be super good, you're all idiots."

No, you just enjoy being wrong. And I enjoy correcting you.

Irelia Bot2 votes

So just wondering. Did your main account get perma banned on here?

The Ecdysiast2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cnyloLXp,comment-id=0003000000000000,timestamp=2018-12-29T02:25:05.843+0000)

Illaoi has one of the highest winrate deltas across top laners; if I recall right she's top 7 with a beginning w/r of about 46 and a "mastered" averaging around 57%, close to what Singed performs at when mastered but without the steep beginning curve. The other higher deltas are from champions who start at absurdly low numbers due to mechanical requirements or from being relatively different from the rest of the game. In fact most of the champions with the best performances at "mastered" levels of play are not your precious "muhchanics" champions but are exactly like Illaoi; macro-focused with mechanically simple kits like Aurelion Sol and Singed.

Illaoi happening to be very exploitative of weak players is not any testament to her ease of use. You being a weak player is not an argument against her difficulty.

No, you just enjoy being wrong. And I enjoy correcting you.

It blows my mind you can interpret your own evidence so falsely and still think you're right. You wanting to believe your champion is difficult to make yourself feel good doesn't have any bearing on the truth.

Even ignoring that aspect of it, comparing her to two other champions that aren't at all similar to her based solely on the fact their kits are mechanically simple doesn't work in your favor, either. Especially when you actually look at the problems that are results of their simplicity which aren't present in Illaoi's kit. Where you're drawing the false comparison is in thinking the fact Illaoi is easy because she is simple makes her similar to two champions who are difficult because they are simple.

Singed and Aurelion Sol don't have options when it comes to encountering the enemy. Singed solves this by building full defense and trying to split them up as much as possible while hopefully not actually coming into contact with them. Aurelion solves this by simply pumping out damage and relying heavily on his team to both be bait so his damage can be applied and provide crowd control when his own is exhausted. Because when he can't do so his main source of damage is incredibly easy to avoid.

Illaoi, on the other hand, doesn't need options. Her kit has everything it needs without any of the weaknesses that require Singed to resort to unique strategies, or the ones that require Aurelion to choose his fights and positioning more carefully. She can simply beat anyone who attempts to fight her with little effort, even getting benefits against multiple enemies.

Her poor performance for people who haven't played her much can be attributed to their lack of knowledge about her abilities, not difficulty. You can't write with a pen you can't get open because you didn't know it's a twist instead of a clicker. Doesn't make the pen any more difficult to write with once you do know that. Likewise with Illaoi, there are unique aspects to her abilities just as there are for every other champion in the game. Not knowing she focuses her E second and/or that the spirit counts as a second champion for her R and healing, or even that her tentacles auto-target the target of your E are easy things to be unaware of as a new player to Illaoi. But then knowing them then makes it incredibly easy to player her.

Compare that to, say, Azir. Even knowing how to properly use his abilities, knowing you can Q during his E to go further or change trajectory, that you can hit an enemy who's behind you with a forward R, etc. doesn't make those easy things to do well. They still require precise timing and positioning.

Electro5221 votes

You had a good argument up until the last line.

Please keep insults out of the conversation.

Juice2 votes

Illaoi is insanely broken, nothing fair about her overloaded kit except the fact that a toddler could play that champion and do well (fair champ for everyone who plays it)

Zéychin2 votes

Champions that have advantages over Ilaoi: Every other Juggernaut. Most fighters. Most ranged top laners.

The only way to really lose against Illaoi by default is to play a tank with low damage and high cooldowns like Shen or to play poorly. Illaoi is a very gimmicky and telegraphed champion. Once you learn how to play around her kit, Illaoi has to mindgame you into running into her E, which can be pretty difficult.

Strategies that are good against Illaoi: Fight her level 2 if she ever walks away from her tentacle. She will hard lose the trade. Stand behind minions to avoid E. Let her push into you pre-6 and she is a free kill if your jungler has any idea what to do. Never gang ontop of Illaoi if her ult is up. I see this so much in lower Elo games. She will kill several of you unless she is straight inting the game already. Healing reduction is extraordinarily good against Illaoi, especially if she has Death's Dance. Disengage from an Illaoi that has ulted unless you are 100% sure you can facetank her.

and the one that is the strongest against Illaoi: When Illaoi takes damage, the duration of the vessel ripped out of you by her E is reduced by one second. If you play Damge Over Time to Illaoi, such as Singed poison, the vessel will almost immediately disappear, you won't take additional damage from her slapping the vessel, and you will not be inflicted with the curse of having to dodge tentacles while being slowed.

Illaoi's E is the single most important ability in her kit in a 1v1 situation. It is a ton of her damage, her only way of slowing you to keep you from disengaging, and it amplifies her W->Slam and Ult->Slam damage. If you are reasonably healthy and she misses E and you don't fight her, you're trolling.

I one-tricked Illaoi for two seasons under the name Illaominati. If Illaoi misses E, she basically either dies or has to Flash away post-6 unless she is against a low damage tank or her enemy is already very low.

Lemonfaace1 votes

Wow, even I didn’t know hitting her would get rid of the vessel faster.

Zéychin1 votes

{quoted}

Wow, even I didn’t know hitting her would get rid of the vessel faster.

This is a particular example of where I think that League needs more ways to teach players what to do, or at the very least an indicator. There is no indication to Illaoi's opponent that if the player fights back, the vessel will go away any faster.

(At the same time though, in fairness to Illaoi, Damage Over Time effects shouldn't nearly-instantly destroy the spirit. It should be capped at once per second per source of damage maybe. This is why Illaoi's winrate tanks against Malzahar, Cassiopeia, Darius, Singed, Teemo, Brand, et cetera, even aside from their other strengths against her, namely CC.)

xDogMeatx1 votes

actually there are certain (i win) matchups she has and certain (I lose) matchups some others are skill use in the middle ground.

Moody P1 votes

almost every matchup illaoi has is an IQ test for the enemy

xDogMeatx1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cnyloLXp,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2018-12-21T13:04:04.687+0000)

almost every matchup illaoi has is an IQ test for the enemy

not if the illaoi can stop certain angles on certain matchups due to her e being her somewhat free dmg/gapcloser. i faced her in some games i can say this.

Dr Dog1 votes

or your vsing a lane bully? struggling against them being the entire point of their kit ?

Moody P1 votes

Illaoi isn't a lane bully. She has a terrible pre-3 and a mediocre pre-6 and is extremely vulnerable at any part of the lane beyond her side before the river.

Illaoi doesn't become a legitimate threat in any sense to anyone until after level 6, and that's really just because she can counter an all-in fairly well.

Dr Dog2 votes

all you listed are power spikes, shes 100% a lane bully and after 3 can zone most champions top lane off from the wave easily because of her early power

Moody P1 votes

after 3 can zone most champions top lane off from the wave easily because of her early power

If Illaoi is zoning you off your wave at level 3 then you are playing terribly and need to address what you're doing wrong.

Dr Dog1 votes

its all matchups, she is a weaker bully so she cant zone people like dar or renekton but after 3 she can freeze the wave and zone you off in front of it, because if you try to walk up you take an e then have to back off because if you went in she would do a lot of dmg to you

Moody P1 votes

No. It's tank matchups. Most fighters are either a skill matchup or beat Illaoi, anywhere from a little bit to an outright counter (Yorick pre-gutting). Illaoi wins most lanes by being the better player with a superior understanding of wave control and jungle influence; in a contest of straight power Illaoi will usually lose unless multiple win conditions are met.

Dr Dog2 votes

ima have to agree to diagree there, all of illaois power is early game before she can just be kited out and shes a powerful laner

Moody P1 votes

Illaoi is a mid-game champion, her strongest points would be from levels 6 to about 13 where she's able to push hard into towers and force enemy team's attention to where she's at. early game is highly overrated and she doesn't really kick in until post-6 and at least a Phage since her damage heavily relies on her high AD ratios

if you find yourself getting pushed out sooner than the point where Illaoi can start clearing waves very quickly, then you're playing the lane very poorly and getting punished for it

Lemonfaace1 votes

The way to beat Illaoi is either to play ranged, or weave her attacks as a melee.

She’s not as scary as people make her out to be. She’s very successful in low elo only because people don’t know how to play around her E and ult.

Fighting her as a melee champ is considerably more difficult, but it’s all about weaving around her skillshots, especially when she takes your soul. This is easy as a ranged champion with mobility, since her damage only gets high if she can hit you and your vessel simultaneously (her shots are easier to dodge at a distance).

As a ranged champion, you can literally go in if she successfully E’s you. This is because the damage she does to your vessel is a lot less than she would to you directly, so you will out-damage her if you dodge her skillshots, and she’ll cower if she’s wise.

This is also true for melee champions, but you really have to play hit-and-run to avoid too much damage. Bait her to exhaust her abilities on your vessel, then go ham. If she ults, just back away and briefly (like just a few seconds) reposition away from where she ult’d, and you win. Of course, making a mistake here will be painful/lethal, but that’s why she’s a juggernaut (Garen, Darius, and Nasus heavily punish mistakes, as they too are juggernauts).

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