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"just dodge the spears bro"

The Bard Dog··82 votes·6,815 views

no one can dodge every single spear. and god forbid it's an invisible spear.

sure, the spears are tough to land consistently, but all it takes is one.

one landed spear is seriously all it takes to turn a teamfight into nidalee's favor.

two things are guaranteed to happen when you inevitably get hit with a nidalee spear, and AREN'T the tankiest of tanks.

  1. you get chunked for most of your health, and are forced to back, leaving your team in a 4v5
  2. you get chunked for most of your health, jumped on from what i would probably say is the same range as a lux q, die, and then watch as nidalee cougar jump spams away

sorry. nothing healthy about nidalee's kit at all. lets look at it from a jungler's perspective and a laner's perspective

jungler first the second nidalee gets blue, she has infinite heal spam to make her other clears risk-free, and enable her to gank at full health always not to mention the pretty common bug of nidalee throwing spears from the fog of war, and chunking people out of their health without them even realizing they were in any form of danger. incredibly fast clear times thanks to resets on marked targets, an execute on her cougar q, and her e that works in a cone, albeit a small cone.

lets look at her from a laner perspective only bad before first buy. any good nidalee worth her salts buys a tear on first back, maxes out her mana, and then proceeds to q spam until one of them lands on the enemy laner. then, because even without ap her spears still hit like a truck, she's going w,q,e, and then go back to human form and finish you off with a spear as you run. then she roams to other lanes, sweeps wards(as every mid laner should have a ward sweeper come roam time), and then proceeds to spam spears into enemy lanes until she gets a kill or gives her teammates enough of an edge to get the kill.

tl;dr everything about nidalee's kit is extremely unhealthy which is only exacerbated by the fact that she has a gamebreaking invisible spear from the fog of war bug that hasn't been addressed or even MENTIONED by riot in the past 3 months

92 Comments

Raja Chachki51 votes

pink ward the spears. problem solved.

junglerboy167 votes

Probably the funniest solution I've heard of.

idoki17 votes

You probably weren't around the time of General Discussion in the old forums: "pink ward" refers to the massive anti-akali wave and "spears" refers to pre-rework Nidalee's javalins which were equipped with nuclear warheads and were WAY easier to hit. Eventually whenever someone started a complaint thread against Akali or Nidalee people just answered with "pink ward her spears" as it became a meme like "better nerf Irelia".

Good ol' times :')

junglerboy165 votes

Yeah, I was there, I just hadn't heard it used in the actual context of invisible spears before, which is what made a really old meme seem strangely funny to me.

hgjkdlsaf jeldvb1 votes

if it helps see the invisible ones

godofruin238 votes

as a nidalee bronze 5 main i assure you i never land spears

Łunacy3 votes

I laughed, take my upvote.

Godhri4 votes

This is by far the most hilarious post I've read here.

Lumus Avatar10 votes

A few Reds have responded (in the past 2 weeks) to the invisible spears bug stating that they are working diligently to find a solution, but they first have to determine a repeat case. They have not been able to reliably replicate the bug, which means they don't know it's exact cause. Without knowing the exact cause, the best they can do is try to treat symptoms and we all know that is little more than a bandaid at best, and a new disease at worst.

Riot isn't very forthcoming with information, but I believe they are trying to make and keep the game good, fun, and playable. Things just take time.

Retillin2 votes

I would love to believe they are trying. I really think they are. But they seems to work harder/quicker when something is bitched about. Take the BotRK exploit last year. It was happening for a few months and Riot said they were working on it. Then some people posted on Reddit how to do it (their reasoning was to make Riot hurry up and fix it) and very shortly after the whole thing got fixed. Things like this do make me a little uneasy with "we are aware and working to fix it" on any post.

qetzel2 votes

The important part there is "how to do it". Before, Riot had a limited number of games to get information on how it worked. When loads of people started using it, Riot got more information and so was able to fix it.

EDIT: Also the frequency is important. The BotRK could be made to happen all the time - It could be exploited to win games. It wasn't a bug in the same sense.

HeWolf4 votes

There you go: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwX0pheCvmA

qetzel1 votes

I saw that video. It is probably very helpful in determining the cause of the bug. It is, however, possible that this is unrelated to the main invisible spears bug given that the invisible spears often come from the fog of war and are random.

HeWolf1 votes

Yeah, the problem of the fog of war+skillshots is still unsolved and kind of a mystery.

Volt Cruelerz3 votes

Someone posted a video a couple days ago wherein they could reproduce the bug, though it required crazy timing to pull off. From the sounds of it, you have to order an AA right as it's detaching from nid or something like that.

PanterLily3 votes

Yes i saw the video, but some summoners said its very easy to do after some practice.

Maganar1 votes

Wonderful, so now it's going to become a "trick" of playing Nidalee that everyone is going to try and learn so they can have the advantage, and since it's easy, every Nidalee will be able to do it.

We can only hope this means that Riot will be forced into action, either to disable Nidalee until a fix can be made or to hotfix her asap, since the onus is now on THEM to do something now that the bug is proven to be replicable.

Raxicor1 votes

Why would they want to replicate the way in the video if they can already do it as a regular nidalee?

Left Hook Larry10 votes

I really don't see any weaknesses in Nidale. Her clear is pretty fast and once she has blue buff she can sustain all day by spamming her E. Sure you do somewhat have to land her spear in her ganks, but it's a 2v1 either way. This means that even if she doesn't her spear you can still gank with her. Also if you're to low, or the enemy isn't pushing up too much you can just throw a spear every now and then at them. It will put pressure on them even if you aren't ganking. If she lands a spear she can outduel almost everyone in the jungle. And late game her spears just destroy your team.

The only way to beat a very good Nidale is if you straight up have an engage team, which isn't likely to happen in solo que. Also people complain about Lee being too mobile and having the ability to get out of bad situations, but Nidale also has this. And unlike Lee sin's W her pounce has a much lower CD and doesn't require wards.

Nidale is just too strong in solo que and still a top tier pick in the LCS

Maganar2 votes

And there's one other thing you didn't mention that makes this even more silly that this is allowable as a champion that hasn't been reworked when Riot flips out over stuff like Soraka (actually... wtf... what was that rework even supposed to prove?). You say the only way to beat her is with a straight-up engage team... that means your entire team must literally be picked around the one sole purpose of shutting down a single champion. First of all, if she's a draft counterpick or a blind pick, that means there is no way to beat her according to what you say (and I agree) and that Riot thinks it's ok for a champion to force not just a counterpick, but actually a full counter-team to be picked. That's totally bs.

So yeah. But the root of the problem is what you end on: "still a top tier pick in the LCS." It's going to be hard to get her reworked as long as LCS players are defending her. If anyone remember what happened when Lee Sin was going to get a single nerf to one spell, a change they had put live on PBE, you'll realize that this is a serious problem and we have to hope for the best, but we aren't likely to be appeased in requesting nerfs/rework.

For those of you unaware or who don't remember, Riot completely backtracked and pretended they had never intended to make changes, and have since ignored Lee Sin in subsequent patches, because the pro players pressured them since the change would cut down on their flashy plays (the ward hop would cost enough energy to OMG GATE LEE SIN BY HIS ENERGY COSTS WTF, which, atm, Lee Sin isn't really gated by much anything in casting his abilities - this change in turn would have forced pros to actually flash in on Lee Sin in order to pull off the famous q,q,ward placement, w, r combo to kick an enemy into their team when they only thing they needed to land was a spammable ability with an energy cost too low to gate its usage).

Two Right Wings 9 votes

Nidalee is relaiable on poke comps with a big front liner up top and strong engage from your comp. Other than that she is a fairly weak champion if she doesn't get good ganks early and is quickly out scaled by meta picks in jungle/top/mid who face her. Who needs to dodge a spear when you roll through her with hard engage and objective control? Don't get picked and hope your solo que teamates are good enough to not get picked and nidalee becomes a non factor

Drakzul9 votes

Her kit isn't toxic. She is an assassin. In a teamfight she can do little more then cleanup if you avoid her 1-2 spears she can throw during that time, which is NOT hard. The spears are the size of toothpicks, if you can't avoid them you need to practice dodging skillshots in general.

Are you trying to say that Talon or Zed give you a better warning before they jump and obliterate you then Nidalee does? Because I believe not. Are you trying to say Zed and Katarina are unable to jump into a fight kill a target and escape?

You need to play Nidalee to understand her limitations. She can't just willy nilly jump into your team when she hits a spear, which do much less damage alone then they used to.

This isn't to say Nidalee isn't good, but she's not broken or op. She's fairly balanced with most other assassin's. People just hate assassin's in general.

Edit: Her heal is broken. That shit needs to go because if she's going to be an assassin then she NEEDS to lose that sustain and utility. Otherwise perfectly balanced damage wise, which is what I'm inferring your complaining about the most.

Wuju Lord13 votes

You're kidding, right? 1-2 spears per fight, you say? ... I really SHOULDNT bother here, but I will anyway, yay. Most teams just WAIT until Nidalee whittles people down to a healthy half-hp situation before engaging. Her spear has a relatively short CD, what is it, 5-6 seconds or so? No. A smart player will predict movement patterns of the enemies and hit them from miles away, multiple times, until it becomes painfully obvious that the enemy team needs to back away, or risk getting engaged on.

Drakzul2 votes

Sure, if your stalemating Mid against a nidalee you DESERVE the spears lol. That's just terrible decision making. This is the same thing that Ziggs, Xerath, Vel'koz, Viktor and many many other poke champs do. AND THEY DO IT BETTER. Ziggs has MULTIPLE spells to poke with, Xerath has MULTIPLE spells to poke with, Vel'koz can poke your tanks just as hard as squishies and in extreme angles, Viktor can blow up your entire team for more damage then Nidalee's SINGLE target spell.

In a FIGHT she gets 1-2 spears. FIGHTS do not last more then 10 seconds.

Your not stating anything that is Nidalee specific at all. Your just complaining about siege mages.... which are fairly balanced. You know how you beat them? SPLIT PUSH.

Anyway that's all I have for now. Prove me wrong please :)

Left Hook Larry7 votes

Does Victor have infinite sustain like Nid does with her E? Or does he have a low cd gap closer that allows them to jump over walls as well?

Feathermane6 votes

I think you are going about this the wrong way. I would simply make the Nidalee icon in champion select invisible as well. It fits thematically and has the welcome side effect of making Nidalee not picked ever again.

Abyssphere6 votes

"sure, the spears are tough to land consistently, but all it takes is one"

"All it takes is one" is such a horrible argument. I hate seeing it about Nidalee. Yes, it's true. One landed spear with a lot of AP behind it can chunk you for a LOT of your health, but the fixation on that one time the spear lands is really tunnel-visioned. What about all the time where it doesn't hit? What does that do for Nidalee? When you're hit with the spear your health goes down a lot and you're at risk of dying (to an assassin), and that's scary. In the minutes between two spear hits? Nidalee is a champion with no damage output who is doing nothing but healing. She is effectively useless.

Nidalee spears hit so rarely that she spends the majority of her games in a moment of extended weakness in exchange for one moment of high power when she manages to land one. Contrast that to any other assassin. How many times do you think Akali, Talon, Zed and LeBlanc can kill you in between the times Nid manages to hit you with a spear?

People focus so much on "it's unfair that when Nidalee hits me with a spear, she gets to do a lot of damage" and never pay any attention to when she's not hitting you with one (aka 90% of the time). She is the least impressive champion in the game when a spear misses, why aren't you taking advantage of that?

If you really think the "all it takes is one spear" thing is true then the only thing you can do is lower the damage but increase the reliability. There are so many things you can complain about Nidalee, from the strength of her heal to the spammy nature of her dash. But the idea that she gets rewarded too highly for a skill she probably lands less than once a minute on average is ridiculous. I am almost certain that from a power level point of view, she'd prefer to have a Syndra Q than her own Javelin Toss as long as it applied Hunt. Think about that.

Wuju Lord10 votes

the answer to what happens to nid when she doesnt land a spear? NOTHING! :D

since it's from a bullshit range and nobody short of xerath can actually trade with her, she just waits and TRIES AGAIN in a few seconds.

Focus Teemo5 votes

[{quoted}](name=Wuju Lord,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cmxm0k9d,comment-id=000d0000,timestamp=2015-04-02T21:59:15.857+0000)

the answer to what happens to nid when she doesnt land a spear? NOTHING! :D

since it's from a bullshit range and nobody short of xerath can actually trade with her, she just waits and TRIES AGAIN in a few seconds.

Lol isn't her gameplay so enjoyable?

Funny thing is Xerath has to charge his Q, and lower his movement speed to increase his range, and can't heal himself when hit. Nidalee chucks her spear instantly, dodges his abilities with ease, and heals herself if hit. Did i mention her spear at max range has double the base damage of Xeraths Q, and scales off of 120% of her AP VS. Xerath's 75%... truly her spears are so weak after those pesky nerfs.

Divewing5 votes

I can handle bullshit spears. I can handle bullshit executes. I can handle bullshit running away/gap closer. I really can. BUT WHY THE HELL HAS ANYTHING THAT CAN DO ^ GOT A FOTHER MUCKING HEAL?!??!?!??!?!?????!

3tyson3 votes

Stop playing squeeshys and than complain when an assassin blows you up...

ModAcademy Kayn24 votes

Someone didn't read the post.

MohawkBird10 votes

Stop playing squishies and complaining about when you get one shot by an invisible spear. Also stop complaining when she pounces from 700 range every 3 seconds to catch up to you and eventually get away. Makes sense...

redniwediS1 votes

Not everyone has the invisible spear problem. If you have it and you play a squishy in a mode that cannot or does not ban Nidalee perhaps you should rethink what you're doing.

Kitten of Evil18 votes

So no one in any normal blind pick game should pick a squishy champion ever? Makes sense!

Focus Teemo6 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kitten of Evil,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cmxm0k9d,comment-id=0000000100000000,timestamp=2015-04-02T18:08:11.341+0000)

So no one in any normal blind pick game should pick a squishy champion ever? Makes sense!

Blind pick... Why stop there? Clearly we should replace every role in the game with tanks, just because Nid exists... makes perfect sense!

not a starburst4 votes

Genius!

Takazaki1 votes

yeah, a tank meta would be Taric

truly trulyTaric

but oh wait....

Sejuani Nautilus Sion

Maganar2 votes

So in other words, Nidalee should be a permaban.

Which constitutes a champion in need of rework.

Which constitutes what both the post you were replying to indicated, and the OP.

Which, in light of your comment, implies you do not think before posting.

Also, did you actually mean to imply that "the invisible spear problem" is something people "only have" when Nidalee is in a game? Because... that's once again exactly the point being made here.

redniwediS2 votes

No. Champions don't get reworks because of a bug, particularly a bug that not everyone experiences. I have no problem seeing her spears, where as a good friend I play with has problems with many skills being invisible, with the worst one being Cassiopeia's poison field.

You're making a lot of bad assumptions in your post. Do you actually believe them, or are you just frustrated with the problem and decided to vent toward someone who's post got a lot of downvotes?

Maganar2 votes

I was not referring to the bug when saying the rework was needed. That in relation to her entire kit, and if you are ignoring that aspect of the OP, then you should expect a misunderstanding. You fix a bug if a champion is bugged; you rework a kit if the kit is toxic. These are two separate problems, but Nidalee has BOTH of them - which is part of the point the OP is trying to make, because Riot intentionally goes and brings up Nidalee in the patch notes only to say: "Nothing to see here," when there is a hell of a lot to be seen between the gamebreaking bug and the toxicity of her kit.

Also, the invisible spears is a bug induced by actions on the Nidalee player's end of the connection, and affects everyone in the game. Your friend has a bugged version of the game, I would recommend reinstallation, and that has nothing to do with what we are talking about. You'd think that if everyone is complaining of the same skillshot being invisible, it isn't a local corrupt file on one computer, no? Once again, I think this only goes further to show you need to stop and think before posting anything.

I did not target you because of your downvotes, I did it because your post was thoughtless and that peeves me. I also worked straight through all the logic, line by line to make it clearer, and yet you say I am "making assumptions." You aren't making any sense. I will admit though, there is still a correlation between you being downvoted and me replying - that being that inane comments tend to be downvoted, and that your illogical comment is what drove me to reply.

So, no, I didn't believe any of the bad assumptions that I... didn't make?

GundayMonday3 votes

You can make invisible spears happen in plain sight too (not the fog of war). You have to spam/cancel your auto-attack + stop command, and then throw a spear while the auto attack projectile is still in the air. Pretty hard to do, but you'll see it in LCS from time to time. There were videos of people replicating it in the "Report a Bug" forum a few weeks ago.

Maganar2 votes

...A few weeks ago?

And Riot is still playing coy that they haven't fixed it because "it can't be replicated, so we can't get to the source?"

...

Spacesuit Spiff2 votes

That's neglecting the fact that if you get ccd and cant dodge it you're just boned. Last time I forgot to ask for Nid to be banned, I was ganking a Swain, who landed the root on me. Spear comes out of wraith pit and chunks me, Nid flashes over the wall, leaps, and explodes me. Sure, that was wp by them, but there is absolutely nothing comparable I could do as any other level 3 jungler.

Drakzul6 votes

A) You got snared by Swain.... B) Flash Q from Vi? that burst is just as strong at level 3. C)E-Q from Jarvan? D) Lee sin. E) Any early game jungler with mobility in the entire game.

You misplayed and set yourself up to get fucked when the Snare hit you. Bad gank. Get counterganked.

Ada Wong2 votes

1.) Use wards properly in ambush spots (Bronze Players (FAIL to do this)

Your Tanks should generally be the ones (Battle Warding) Unless you want to send your support to die instantly. ( The exception is if you are all going in together to drop wards, or warding over a wall. (However if the enemy already has it warded god forbid a squishy support try to ward it or they just give a free kill.)

2.) Invisible Spears (Are Your Problem) I have no problem with seeing her spears this is likely a graphics issue.

3.) If you are tank its not a problem (If you have to get hit by a Spear (Get hit up Close) and then (Get Out) or flash to your team or your dead either way.

4.) Stay Behind your tank or between your Creeps.

It really just isn't that hard.

air tiger5 votes

Invisible spears are a bug - a problem with the game. It's been heavily reported and even replicated. In the case that a problem or issue isn't within your scope of perception, it doesn't mean the said problem doesn't exist.

MarhsallLee672 votes

This is kind of how I feel when I play against Zed. He gets two items, comes back to lane, and after I dodge dozens of shurikens, both from him and his shadow, I accidentally get hit by one or two he then proceeds to all-in and kill me, and my tower just kind of stares at me while it happens, not really doing a whole lot to stop him.

Maganar1 votes

Zed is actually an assassin done right in my books, but he's got the balancing problem that he has no mana bar which is something Riot needs to consider more carefully than looking at a checkbox by the question "Is this champion a ninja? Check if yes." and deciding to put energy on them all. He feels unfair in scenarios like you explained because he can spam the shurikens nonstop with no penalty and he can't possibly run out of mana without having any.

MarhsallLee671 votes

Like you said, I feel if he didn't have such strong pushing power at all points of the game, and there was more penalty for using abilities, a lot of mid laners would actually have a chance at beating him at lane. The way Zed currently works, the best-case scenario if you're playing a mage (unless you're a godlike player and/or the Zed you're playing against is intoxicated) is that you don't lose lane- there's really no way to actually stomp Zed as a mage unless you have a LOT of pressure from your jungler (in my experience, at least).

But yeah, a bit more energy penalty and less pushing strength would certainly help to even him out.

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