For season 8, can the goal of the preseason be to address laners regaining control of lane phase?

HateDaddy··103 votes·6,925 views

In other words, can we significantly reduce the power and frequency of jungler ganks? And by doing this, we would also reward the jungle with perhaps gp/10 items and potentially decent scaling items that are cheap but require smite to have. Additionally, remove the downtime on trinkets entirely. Junglers rarely need to even keep track of when enemy trinkets are down because there's so many ways to gank anyway but the loss of trinket for any duration still feels like absolute shit.

These are merely suggestions. I'm tired of lane phase being so stagnant. I'm so tired of one gank resulting in the end of my lane phase. I'm tired of towers not being punishing enough so early dives can happen early and hilariously often. im tired of the enemy playing like a complete bitch and being rewarded for it by simply letting his jungler win his lane. I realize that's a valid strategy and that's fine but not when it's the only one. Lane dominance means nothing because it inevitably leads to being ganked non stop with the jungler really not suffering major consequences for it. Meanwhile, whatever work I've done or skill I've displayed in lane is for nothing and that's totally frustrating and makes me want to quit this game.

This isn't exclusive to top lane. Every lane is like this. I don't even know how bot lane players are sane anymore. Mid lane players must be bored out of their minds. And top lane players get the thankless task of being the teams bitch. "Okay cool I'll just get dove 6 times, die and be starved out while you guys 4 man bot." I realize that sounds silly but neither case is fun. Getting dove over and over while camped but still winning doesn't feel thrilling at all. It makes me glad my wasted time at least didn't lose me LP and that's never how a game should feel, but it does. And again, I'm sure this is true for every lane.

When it boils down to it, roaming has lost its risk, ganking is no sweat to a jungler and limitation on vision has stagnated the lane phase so hard that when you combine all of these things above, lane phase feels like it's a game of waiting to have ganks or be tanked and watch the snowball rapidly roll downhill from there. Nothing about that is satisfying, even when I'm the one snowballing.

I understand you want faster paced games and I understand that. I truly believe you can achieve that without making the game so snowball intense. I realize that sounds absurd but I don't believe that notion is that far-fetched if the right things are balanced appropriately. And honestly, even f you can't achieve that, who cares if games go on for averages of 10 minutes longer? Instead of shortening the games, get rid of all the extra garbage you have when broadcasting your pro games. Reduce champ select time, shorten analysis time and make LCS opening/closing shorter. Don't compromise the health of the game for an industry you swear loses you money. I'm fine with that approach in general champion balance because it ensures the game is balanced around the highest level of play, thus a higher quality game. But for game dynamics and such? Nah, that starts feeling a imposing.

Tl;dr please give laners control over lane phase again

132 Comments

How Do You Meta25 votes

We need to let players have the option to upgrade their trinkets and/or buy individual wards again, I am sick of being limited to just one ward and one control per player other than the support.

Also wards, including control wards, shouldn't take up an item slot, especially late game when you can't buy control wards because you have 6 items.

HateDaddy15 votes

[{quoted}](name=How Do You Meta,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cmtpscGZ,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2017-02-22T02:19:48.203+0000)

We need to let players have the option to upgrade their trinkets and/or buy individual wards again, I am sick of being limited to just one ward and one control per player other than the support.

Also wards, including control wards, shouldn't take up an item slot, especially late game when you can't buy control wards because you have 6 items.

At this point, I'm totally for an additional slot for wards only.

jaymc11302 votes

[{quoted}](name=How Do You Meta,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cmtpscGZ,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2017-02-22T02:19:48.203+0000)

We need to let players have the option to upgrade their trinkets and/or buy individual wards again, I am sick of being limited to just one ward and one control per player other than the support.

Also wards, including control wards, shouldn't take up an item slot, especially late game when you can't buy control wards because you have 6 items.

Seconded.

2Charmnot2Charm2 votes

This because i can't trust the rest of my teammates to ward shit as the mid laner.

Melondrama2 votes

[{quoted}](name=How Do You Meta,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cmtpscGZ,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2017-02-22T02:19:48.203+0000)

We need to let players have the option to upgrade their trinkets and/or buy individual wards again, I am sick of being limited to just one ward and one control per player other than the support.

Also wards, including control wards, shouldn't take up an item slot, especially late game when you can't buy control wards because you have 6 items.

Why did they remove pink trinket? I thought that was unnecessary

Elikain1 votes

We need to let players have the option to upgrade their trinkets and/or buy individual wards again, I am sick of being limited to just one ward and one control per player other than the support.

But you do have that option. There are only two trinkets now - Warding Totem and a Sweeping Lens. Warding totem (if left as is) is automatically upgraded with your levels while the other upgrade is Farsight Alteration. Warding Totem either gives you the ability to ward (yellow) or scout (blue) while Sweeping Lens and it's upgrade (Oracle Alteration) serve as vision clearing and denial tool.

Control Wards serve a different purpose now. They allow you control an area and deny vision in it. Which means as long as your team is in the control of a point where the control ward sits, the enemy can't reliably get vision. That's why they last indefinitely and are visible. When the enemy manages to shoo you out of their jungle, they can easily clear it and set up their vision again.

The maximum carry potential of control wards in the inventory is 3, while there's a limit of only 1 control ward on the field, per player. I can only agree on control wards having their own special slot in the inventory (carry potential still limited to 3, set potential still 1). I do not agree however, that Riot should reintroduce regular wards into the game.

Vision is information and information has value. If Riot started handing out free vision, where would risk of any action be?

jaymc11301 votes

{quoted}

But you do have that option. There are only two trinkets now - Warding Totem and a Sweeping Lens. Warding totem (if left as is) is automatically upgraded with your levels while the other upgrade is Farsight Alteration. Warding Totem either gives you the ability to ward (yellow) or scout (blue) while Sweeping Lens and it's upgrade (Oracle Alteration) serve as vision clearing and denial tool.

Control Wards serve a different purpose now. They allow you control an area and deny vision in it. Which means as long as your team is in the control of a point where the control ward sits, the enemy can't reliably get vision. That's why they last indefinitely and are visible. When the enemy manages to shoo you out of their jungle, they can easily clear it and set up their vision again.

The maximum carry potential of control wards in the inventory is 3, while there's a limit of only 1 control ward on the field, per player. I can only agree on control wards having their own special slot in the inventory (carry potential still limited to 3, set potential still 1). I do not agree however, that Riot should reintroduce regular wards into the game.

Vision is information and information has value. If Riot started handing out free vision, where would risk of any action be?

Vision wasn't free, it had an income cost tied to it and was balanced upon that for seasons. You want a look at where the problems with junglers started, look at threads like this that point out the slippery slope Riot started down 2 years ago with the changes after season 5.

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/9H4KqONg-please-for-the-love-of-god-bring-back-stealth-wards-in-the-shop

Elikain1 votes

And what of stealth champions that were either oppressive or useless, depending if the players were willing to buy pinks or not? The game wasn't balanced even then but people do love to put their nostalgia on the line and reminisce about the "good ol' times".

You want to know which of the changes almost made me quit? When trinkets were first introduced. I just didn't want to deal with it and i was a support player at the time. But i persevered, i played under the changes and they didn't even feel half bad or forced. It was something that League needed, considering that all before this, supports were dedicated ward bots.

League was always like this. The only difference being from someone's perspective is if they were invested enough in the game to notice. Most likely, this wasn't the case because we were all new players and were preoccupied with experiencing the game in it's fullest, whereas we don't have that luxury anymore. Us seasoned players are most likely min/maxers at this point in time or have quit.

AninLegions7771 votes

No stealth champ was useless because of pinks. Maybe when oracle was still in SR but not pink. Get your facts right.

Elikain1 votes

No stealth champ was useless because of pinks.

Akali and Vayne are all the evidence i need to prove your argument wrong. Vayne just thinks she can juke you in the ult or make a play, a support pops a pink near her and she's dead because the stealth was useless from the start. Akali was in the same position. If she even thinks to hide in her shroud, one pink removes that option.

Apply pinks to the rest of the stealth cast. Pinks weren't good for some champs - like Eve and Rengar but that's besides the point.

AninLegions7771 votes

This vayne? :https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xkW0m-jkCR8

You amuse me. And if you go 1v3 and die thanks to a pink AS a SQUISHY, then yes! You deserve it. You aren't meant to 1v9 alone. Jeez.

Elikain1 votes

It's irrelevant against how many people you want to go up against. The point of the pink vs stealth argument is that stealth was made entirely useless from the "intelligent" use of pinks. And by intelligent i just mean putting it on the ground to deny stealth champions their kit strength.

I am a support main and i knew exactly how to shit on a Vayne and Akali. I pick a CC champ, i wait for her ult to pop, i pink and CC. Then she's dead in a 2v2 situation. If stealth champions could have never had a reliable use of their stealth (which was an intended ability in their kit), they had to be compensated with a lot more aggressive kits than they needed.

Both pinks and stealth had problems. Pinks could easily counter close range stealth and it was completely useless against long ranged stealth. That's why stealth was reclassified and vision game was simplified.

AninLegions7771 votes

Did you watch those videos? If you did, you'd see that even with pinks still in the game, the first thing on someone's mind wouldn't be to pink. The first thing is, how to cc her. And good luck CC'ing her when she has QSS. And by the time she gets 3 items, it's pretty much gg. Also late game when everyone is full build, you couldn't buy pinks.

Mizaya10 votes

Junglers just scale up too well for how much impact they already have early game imo. There should be early game pressure dominance OR strong scaling, not both.

HateDaddy4 votes

[{quoted}](name=WE Mizaya,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cmtpscGZ,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2017-02-22T01:22:52.009+0000)

Junglers just scale up too well for how much impact they already have early game imo. There should be early game pressure dominance OR strong scaling, not both.

It's not about scaling as much. I don't mind junglers scaling well. And let's not blame only junglers, it's the nature of the game. You don't lose much for roaming anymore because everything has wave clear and can just insta-shove when ahead. Junglers don't risk much when ganking because losing a buff or a camp isn't that consequential anymore. These are a few examples but the list goes on and I don't want this to be shit on the jungle role post because every form of roaming/ganking is guilty of this with the exception of Teleport because you blow a huge cooldown and miss a ton of exp/cs if your TP gank fails.

Mizaya4 votes

{quoted}

It's not about scaling as much. I don't mind junglers scaling well. And let's not blame only junglers, it's the nature of the game. You don't lose much for roaming anymore because everything has wave clear and can just insta-shove when ahead. Junglers don't risk much when ganking because losing a buff or a camp isn't that consequential anymore. These are a few examples but the list goes on and I don't want this to be shit on the jungle role post because every form of roaming/ganking is guilty of this with the exception of Teleport because you blow a huge cooldown and miss a ton of exp/cs if your TP gank fails.

The reason I dropped jungle as a secondary role this season is that one of my two junglers became permaban, while there was no reason to play the other over any meta jungler. The current meta junglers really don't have a weakness... they are usually always a threat even by theselves, take little risks, and are as relevant as ever as the game goes on. It might not be the champions but rather the way the jungle is set up this season and with other changes. In mid lane, at least, I don't as often feel that I am completely outclassed because I didn't pick a meta champion.

SpecterVonBaren2 votes

It's not that they scale too well, it's that even if they DID fall behind because of ganking it wouldn't impact the outcome of the game because getting two or three of your allies ahead of two or three of the enemies greatly outweighs one person on your team being behind. You not only put an ally ahead, you put an enemy behind.

If blue jungler gets his laners ahead then he also makes it so red jungler now has nothing to do because he can't gank a lost lane because it can mean an even greater snowball if him and/or his laner die because of it. There needs to be something the enemy jungler can do to get his team back on track without needing to rely on an enemy laner messing up their lead.

BluePolarizer9 votes

How is this a jungler problem when junglers that aren't Graves, Kha'Zix, Lee Sin, Shaco or Rengar being invaded in their own jungle and unable to clear their own camps because they cannot duel the current OP junglers? You can't really play AP, tank or carry junglers because you'll get destroyed in your own jungle and have no pressure because even with good ganks, you'll have 0 gold and will just feed in counterganks.

HateDaddy6 votes

{quoted}

How is this a jungler problem when junglers that aren't Graves, Kha'Zix, Lee Sin, Shaco or Rengar being invaded in their own jungle and unable to clear their own camps because they cannot duel the current OP junglers? You can't really play AP, tank or carry junglers because you'll get destroyed in your own jungle and have no pressure because even with good ganks, you'll have 0 gold and will just feed in counterganks.

Because if you deleted the junglers you named, the next junglers in line would do the same thing the OP junglers of now are doing.

BluePolarizer7 votes

no they wouldn't because they'd have slower clears, forcing them spend more time in the jungle or trading their personal farm for ganks. They'd be less bursty and allow top laners to walk away from their ganks, or they're less reliable which adds counterplay.

The current OP junglers are heads and shoulders above other junglers because of their combination of high gank uptime, super fast clearing with low resource usage, high burst, high reliability and strong scaling.

HateDaddy5 votes

{quoted}

no they wouldn't because they'd have slower clears, forcing them spend more time in the jungle or trading their personal farm for ganks. They'd be less bursty and allow top laners to walk away from their ganks, or they're less reliable which adds counterplay.

You're making the assumption that Riot wouldn't have already buffed their clears, which they would've. And yes, tank junglers aren't as bursty but for what they lose in damage, they make up for by being impossible to get away from. This is a universal problem from a philosophical standpoint because what I'm complaining about now was just as prevalent a problem when tank junglers were good. It's just gotten a bit worse this season, which I'll grant you has something to do with the current picks. But the problem remains the same regardless of champions.

The current OP junglers are heads and shoulders above other junglers because of their combination of high gank uptime, super fast clearing with low resource usage, high burst, high reliability and strong scaling.

I am not sure id say strong scaling. Tank junglers tend to be the best scaling junglers. And I think tank junglers only weakness currently are slower, unhealthier cleartimes. If you buffed those, they'd be right in line with current junglers.

LankPants2 votes

Let's just assume for a second that with no further changes we nuke Rengar, Lee Sin, Graves and Kha'zix from orbit, with some smaller nerfs to Vi, Elise and Ivern for good measure.

Do you think after that junglers would be strong or impactful? The next tier of junglers under that is fairly fucking garbage. You'd have an entire role which was shitty with 0 impact.

Yes you have to buff other junglers, because other junglers are so far bellow the power curve of the game that they can barely function.

Tank junglers also don't lose out on their clears, they have weaker bases and can't pressure as well early, they have worse early game durability and can't fight early, they lack the BS mobility of the current junglers and they scale worse. Look at who the current junglers are, Graves, Rengar, Kha'zix, Lee Sin, what do these guys bring? BS oneshot potential. Tanks just can't compete with the damage they can lay down.

HateDaddy4 votes

{quoted}

Let's just assume for a second that with no further changes we nuke Rengar, Lee Sin, Graves and Kha'zix from orbit, with some smaller nerfs to Vi, Elise and Ivern for good measure.

Do you think after that junglers would be strong or impactful? The next tier of junglers under that is fairly fucking garbage. You'd have an entire role which was shitty with 0 impact.

Yes you have to buff other junglers, because other junglers are so far bellow the power curve of the game that they can barely function.

Tank junglers also don't lose out on their clears, they have weaker bases and can't pressure as well early, they have worse early game durability and can't fight early, they lack the BS mobility of the current junglers and they scale worse. Look at who the current junglers are, Graves, Rengar, Kha'zix, Lee Sin, what do these guys bring? BS oneshot potential. Tanks just can't compete with the damage they can lay down.

That's not true. Tank junglers have been guilty of the same thing in the past and many tank junglers have access to mobility. And in the early game, nobody is really super durable so that doesn't hold much water.

Can we stop romanticizing tanks? I understand this board as a natural bias but tanks have been just as busted as current junglers - see cinderhulk meta.

LankPants2 votes

That's not true. Tank junglers have been guilty of the same thing in the past and many tank junglers have access to mobility.

Not on par with what meta junglers have. Grave's E basically resets after his combo, Lee has 2 dashes one of which he can basically make ground targeted, Kha'zix has a fairly short CD leap with the potential to reset and Rengar has an absurd MS boost which can cross half the map and lead into a jump out of stealth.

Even Zac's E, which is the strongest mobility spell any tank in the game has on a non ult spell, and possibly even on par with Shen's R doesn't compare to the majority of these, and most tanks don't have anything as good as that.

And in the early game, nobody is really super durable so that doesn't hold much water.

Champs with strong regen, steroids and shields tend to be durable in the early game. Some tanks do have these but 2 of the 3 most viable jungle tanks do not. Meta junglers on the other hand have these things in spades, Lee has his shield and W2 regen, Graves has his absurd E steroid, Rengar has his roar heal. All of these champs are tankier than tanks in the early game.

Can we stop romanticizing tanks? I understand this board as a natural bias but tanks have been just as busted as current junglers - see cinderhulk meta.

After the first patch of Cinderhulk it was the best meta that has existed in LoL since season 2. I'd happily go back to playing in mid S5 any day over the shit hole that LoL has become since.

HateDaddy5 votes

{quoted}

Not on par with what meta junglers have. Grave's E basically resets after his combo, Lee has 2 dashes one of which he can basically make ground targeted, Kha'zix has a fairly short CD leap with the potential to reset and Rengar has an absurd MS boost which can cross half the map and lead into a jump out of stealth.

Even Zac's E, which is the strongest mobility spell any tank in the game has on a non ult spell, and possibly even on par with Shen's R doesn't compare to the majority of these, and most tanks don't have anything as good as that.

Champs with strong regen, steroids and shields tend to be durable in the early game. Some tanks do have these but 2 of the 3 most viable jungle tanks do not. Meta junglers on the other hand have these things in spades, Lee has his shield and W2 regen, Graves has his absurd E steroid, Rengar has his roar heal. All of these champs are tankier than tanks in the early game.

After the first patch of Cinderhulk it was the best meta that has existed in LoL since season 2. I'd happily go back to playing in mid S5 any day over the shit hole that LoL has become since.

It's almost as if tanks have to pay a significant price for their CC and durability. And regardless, most of these tank junglers have plenty of steroids. Sej has her passive and aoe clear, amumu has E passive and aoe clear. And they outscale these current junglers by a mile, but as I stated their current clears are too weak to compete because the new jungle did tank junglers no favor and Riot didn't buff them to compensate.

And none of that matters because that's not even my point. Even during some of the more balanced patches we've had, the problem I'm complaining about still existed and that's simply that ganking and roaming has lost its risk so lane phase has become so stale and boring. Play like a bitch, wait for ganks, rinse and repeat.

AMYS GRAVE8 votes

Because camps respawn on longer timers the junglers have to gank, there's nothing else for them to do. In other words there is no opportunity cost for ganking because all their camps will respawn regardless.

HateDaddy5 votes

{quoted}

Because camps respawn on longer timers the junglers have to gank, there's nothing else for them to do. In other words there is no opportunity cost for ganking because all their camps will respawn regardless.

Very fair point and I hadn't even considered it. But it's one of many problems I suspect.

Linna Excel1 votes

I think it's the most important. Riot wants teams fighting each other more. Having 2 people not engaging in constant PvP isn't good enough for them.

HateDaddy6 votes

[{quoted}](name=Linna Excel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cmtpscGZ,comment-id=000a00000000,timestamp=2017-02-22T02:36:35.042+0000)

I think it's the most important. Riot wants teams fighting each other more. Having 2 people not engaging in constant PvP isn't good enough for them.

It might be important to this jungle but it doesn't change the fact that this has been an ongoing problem for years. People overrate being counter jungled, it's not the worst thing in the world anymore and it's been that way since season 4 really. There just comes a point where ganking has not become a risky move at all and that really was a big part, too.

Linna Excel2 votes

Yeah, I think a gank should be both a risk and a reward that you have to decide on and not an automatic thing that you do while waiting for camps to respawn. However it seems like the game is devolving into start top and gank bot right away.

TBH riot can't seem to get income and XP right for either junglers or supports. Nearly half of the players in a match are at riot's whims and terrible decision making. I wonder if riot even knows what they want from those two roles or if they are just playing whack-a-mole.

LankPants7 votes

Just bring back a farming jungle with relatively high gold and exp rewards. There has to be an actual tradeoff for ganking, you should lose out on your gold/exp if you fail compared to a jungler who just sits and farms.

This would fuck with the bronzies of course, because they have no idea how to deal with a Yi who just sits and farms for 20 minutes and then comes out and pentas them, but it's worth it to keep the game balanced.

HateDaddy4 votes

{quoted}

Just bring back a farming jungle with relatively high gold and exp rewards. There has to be an actual tradeoff for ganking, you should lose out on your gold/exp if you fail compared to a jungler who just sits and farms.

This would fuck with the bronzies of course, because they have no idea how to deal with a Yi who just sits and farms for 20 minutes and then comes out and pentas them, but it's worth it to keep the game balanced.

The bronzes are going to be mad at the world regardless

chipndip12 votes

If we used that mentality, quite a few champs would be way stronger than we're allowing them to be.

Linna Excel1 votes

Okay, just to look at it from the other angle, what happens if you've got one jungler who power clears, gets ahead and can hard carry and another who has terrible clears and can't really gank before 6?

LankPants3 votes

what happens if you've got one jungler who power clears, gets ahead and can hard carry

The same thing as what happens if an enemy lane gets farms, gets ahead and can hard carry. You try to shut them down. You ward their jungle and try to catch them at a high risk camp like Raptors. You contest their camps and make it hard for them to farm. There's always options to try to shut down a jungler.

another who has terrible clears and can't really gank before 6?

Why are you trying to jungle Sona?

Seriously, which jungler are you talking about here? Fiddlesticks? If so I'll cede that he has major problems, but because of how bad his problems are he can't be a focal point for systematic changes.

Ultimately what this comes back to is the game cannot be balanced around Bronze. There is counterplay to farming junglers, more counterplay than to gank heavy junglers in fact, it just doesn't get exploited in Bronze. The way you should look at this is "if I learn to exploit this weakness I will have an edge on the other people I am playing with, win more, rise in ranks and be equipped to deal with the other people at higher ranks also exploiting this on at least even footing". Don't look at it as something that's unfair because you're not used to it, look at how you can exploit it.

Linna Excel2 votes

The same thing as what happens if an enemy lane gets farms

The point I'm trying to make is that laners can be expected to be constantly interacting with each other while junglers are relatively free of each other during the early clears.

Why are you trying to jungle Sona?

HOW DARE YOU CONFUSE A JUNGLE SORAKA MAIN WITH A JUNGLE SONA MAIN!!! RAGERAGERAGE!!!

I was talking hypothetically, but I think there are relative differences. I think the best example of this is the pro scene where the junglers with good first clears and early ganks rule. I know this isn't a typical problem for most players, but it is an example of a meta where only a single style of jungler can survive.

LankPants2 votes

The point I'm trying to make is that laners can be expected to be constantly interacting with each other while junglers are relatively free of each other during the early clears.

In Bronze. Invades are a thing and you can do them. It's entirely possible for a jungler like Lee Sin to shut out a jungler like Yi.

I know this isn't a typical problem for most players, but it is an example of a meta where only a single style of jungler can survive

This is a problem for most players. Let's take a look down the list of the most picked junglers.

  1. Lee Sin, Gank jungler
  2. Graves, Gank jungler
  3. Kha'zix, Gank jungler
  4. Hecarim, Gank jungler
  5. Vi, Gank jungler
  6. Shaco, Gank jungler
  7. WW, Mostly Gank jungler
  8. Elise, Gank jungler
  9. Evelynn, Gank jungler
  10. Rengar, Gank jungler

This list goes on until

13 Nocturne, farm jungler and 15 Yi, farm jungler.

Gank junglers are insanely dominant right now, it's not even a question of where you play.

HateDaddy7 votes

{quoted}

In Bronze. Invades are a thing and you can do them. It's entirely possible for a jungler like Lee Sin to shut out a jungler like Yi.

This is a problem for most players. Let's take a look down the list of the most picked junglers.

  1. Lee Sin, Gank jungler
  2. Graves, Gank jungler
  3. Kha'zix, Gank jungler
  4. Hecarim, Gank jungler
  5. Vi, Gank jungler
  6. Shaco, Gank jungler
  7. WW, Mostly Gank jungler
  8. Elise, Gank jungler
  9. Evelynn, Gank jungler
  10. Rengar, Gank jungler

This list goes on until

13 Nocturne, farm jungler and 15 Yi, farm jungler.

Gank junglers are insanely dominant right now, it's not even a question of where you play.

I don't really consider Graves a gank jungler.

You pick him for counterganking/farming/skirmishing. Labeling him a gank jungler is extremely misleading.

jaymc11305 votes

{quoted}

In Bronze. Invades are a thing and you can do them. It's entirely possible for a jungler like Lee Sin to shut out a jungler like Yi.

This is a problem for most players. Let's take a look down the list of the most picked junglers.

  1. Lee Sin, Gank jungler
  2. Graves, Gank jungler
  3. Kha'zix, Gank jungler
  4. Hecarim, Gank jungler
  5. Vi, Gank jungler
  6. Shaco, Gank jungler
  7. WW, Mostly Gank jungler
  8. Elise, Gank jungler
  9. Evelynn, Gank jungler
  10. Rengar, Gank jungler

This list goes on until

13 Nocturne, farm jungler and 15 Yi, farm jungler.

Gank junglers are insanely dominant right now, it's not even a question of where you play.

I play exclusively gank junglers and can regularly average better than laner cs. No kidding. In diamond level play none the less. There's nothing "farm" style junglers have ever been able to contribute to a match really, for the entire duration of the game's history it's been predicated upon early jungler/lane interaction.

The thing I am (with my own play) trying to point out here (and also with pro play in today's game) is that competitively skilled junglers can power farm and interact in the lanes a meaningful percentage (svenskaren is a good example) of the time, to the point that jungling champs that brought no built in gank tools lackluster for all of leagues history. Those junglers and that style being weak and inefficient isn't a result of the current meta, that's always been true. So today's issues in the jungle with farm rewards is a trivial or non factor. It would probably be a very bad ideas to put shy and Yi and udyr style things in position to abuse this tactic of power farming as it creates an inherently imbalanced game state.

It would likely do more harm than good to do as you would like based on the factors you limited yourself to considering.

LankPants2 votes

So today's issues in the jungle with farm rewards is a trivial or non factor. It would probably be a very bad ideas to put shy and Yi and udyr style things in position to abuse this tactic of power farming as it creates an inherently imbalanced game state.

No more than letting cancer like Graves and Lee Sin gank without ever losing a camp has.

jaymc11307 votes

{quoted}

No more than letting cancer like Graves and Lee Sin gank without ever losing a camp has.

Graves can't gank for a damn. He's got no tools, he's not a problem for the ladder and he's barely a concern in pro play this long now after his rework.

Lee sin is busted but he's the golden boy. Deal with him.

As a Jg I absolutely punish both for everything they do an do so at a 1% player rate. There are much better early gankers than either. Next thing you know you'll tell me rengar can gank pre 6 with ease. He's something that's almost exclusively a professional level issue alone.

If you can't punish them for missing a camp that's on you. I do. I beat these chump jgs all day so the real issue is how am I beating even that kind of cheesiness. The answer isn't anything to do with farm at all but ease of gank, which has been set at a floor that is determined by outside factors that is so low it makes not doing it the wrong thing because it's simply less efficient. Junglers just have access to too many tools, the plants, hunters pot, easy clears with good income rates, clear and obvious correct pathing choices based on respawn times, ease of drake, difficulty of herald, ease of invasion, lack of purchasable wards in shop, etc.

You can't solve those issues by just boosting farming numbers, you'll throw the whole balance of the game out of whack even further than it is now.

LankPants2 votes

Graves can't gank for a damn. He's got no tools, he's not a problem for the ladder and he's barely a concern in pro play this long now after his rework.

Graves not a problem for pro play? Not a problem for casual play? Are you fucking serious?

In casual play he's the second most picked jungler with a 51.91% winrate. He's fucking absurd.

He's also a top competitive jungler right now, I don't know what fantasy world you're living in to not see that.

If you can't punish them for missing a camp that's on you.

They don't have to miss camps to gank. The jungle respawns so fucking slowly that they can be in lanes almost all the time and still not miss a significant amount of farm.

You can't solve those issues by just boosting farming numbers, you'll throw the whole balance of the game out of whack even further than it is now.

You can easily solve the issue. Just revert the jungle to the last time it actually worked. Late season 6.

jaymc11305 votes

{quoted}

Graves not a problem for pro play? Not a problem for casual play? Are you fucking serious?

In casual play he's the second most picked jungler with a 51.91% winrate. He's fucking absurd.

He's also a top competitive jungler right now, I don't know what fantasy world you're living in to not see that.

They don't have to miss camps to gank. The jungle respawns so fucking slowly that they can be in lanes almost all the time and still not miss a significant amount of farm.

You can easily solve the issue. Just revert the jungle to the last time it actually worked. Late season 6.

No.

Because the issue started in the previous pre season. (S5-6, that transition)

This is precisely why gold players should have posting restrictions in gameplay, lol. You don't even understand what the issue is mate.

LankPants2 votes

This is precisely why gold players should have posting restrictions in gameplay, lol. You don't even understand what the issue is mate.

Unranked player who was silver 4 in the last season he played ranked, get the fuck out of here you pleb.

jaymc11305 votes

{quoted}

Unranked player who was silver 4 in the last season he played ranked, get the fuck out of here you pleb.

Lmao looks up this account to trash talk a 4 time diamond and former master tier player. Lol.

Here's just last season's distilled jungling exclusive credentials: https://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=OOBestEveNaOo

You, however aren't even qualified to be involved in this conversation.

Incarceration1 votes

This is the reason why I always get Ghost and Flash. As long I can't be killed to a gank, I'll win my lane even if they are Goldies.

HateDaddy10 votes

{quoted}

This is the reason why I always get Ghost and Flash. As long I can't be killed to a gank, I'll win my lane even if they are Goldies.

That also puts a huge target on your back in top lane. Guess what I'm pointing out in game? "No TP, easily starved."

MrHaZeYo2 votes

What if hes mid?

Linna Excel1 votes

In other words, can we significantly reduce the power and frequency of jungler ganks?

butbutbut AFK farming...

HateDaddy8 votes

[{quoted}](name=Linna Excel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cmtpscGZ,comment-id=000c,timestamp=2017-02-22T02:28:34.016+0000)

butbutbut AFK farming...

The only time AFK farming bothered me is when the enemy jungler came out of the jungler with 4 items and 2 levels up lol. Other than that, farm junglers haven't been a problem minus a few outliers

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