http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/XuAJPHo1-some-follow-up-marksmen-thoughts
Jhin nerf Corki nerf Warlord nerf Crit adc adjusted (not straight buffs) %armor pen stacked with lethality looked at Other mages encouraged to go botlane
thoughts?
RiotMeddler30 votesAnd, if you want to do the other side of it:
Ahristocats4 votesi was talking about in this thread the changes that you plan to do, i know what you did before and i thank you for it especially the lethality buff that everyone is bashing when no one was buying it before
Now i still have a question that everyone asked in this thread, what is going to be done for melees? this is the forbidden subject since the only answer we had in the past 7 years was repertoir in 2015/2016
you're encouraging mages to go bot, but what about other carries that are melee?
Dreadlocks1 votesI think it's somewhat bad to encourage mages bot as ADCs generally need to go there for support. Most don't survive in lane alone or jungle well. Obviously there are exceptions like Quinn, graves jungle twitch etc... but someone like Draven, jhin, Caitlin etc would probably end up feeding in most cases especially the higher up in ranks we go.
LordOfTheLeague3 votesThere are no reason to remove from bot lane marksmen that can't go in others lane.
The point is to have some mages and some marksmen in a healthy eco system at the farmer with a support position with balanced match ups etc.
Just like what we have for solo lanes.
Dreadlocks1 votesexcept then adcs get less optimal lanes and mages get more ?
Qeun3 votesTop: Graves, Quinn, Vayne, Urgot MId: Corki, Varus, Ezreal, Quinn, Graves, Urgot JG: Graves, Kindred, Quinn, Twitch Suport: MF
An adc can go in to every lane atm soooo I don't know what you're talking about "less optimal lanes" and if riot did make mages viable bot who says they won't make some adcs more viable in sololanes.
Dreadlocks1 voteswith an argument like that every champion can go to any lane...
Qeun1 votesActually No, the only viable set of champs that can go botlane and WORK right now are adcs (fringe cases of 1 mage and 1 bruiser working for a patch don't count.)
SomeOneButNoOne1 votesYea and now lets look at those realisticly, in a setting where junglers aren't braindead:
Top: Free feed, Quinn, Free feed, Free feed. Mid: Corki, Potential free feed, free feed, Quinn, free feed, free feed. Jg: Graves, free feed, Quinn, free feed. Support: Mf.
Look at how that worked out pretty well.
The problem of having a marksman in another lane is that mages are far stronger in the early game, and mostly have a higher range for poking. Due to jungle presence on top of that, and marksman being unable to dish out enough damage that early into the game to either go for a 1:1; and with being squishy, mages can either zone them, or at the mere second AD goes for a CS, he gets ganked and gives up that free kill cause he's squishy & mostly has no CC/escape tools (ezreal is the exception).
Quinn is NOT an ADC also. She is more of a "rengar" type of champion, then Ezreal/jinx/vayne/etc. She roams the map with her ult, until a squishy gets into her sight, and she kills or ends up killed as simple as that.
Currently, adc's are in an insanely bad spot due to everyone scalling insanely, and them either dealing damage, or opting for a 3rd def item and dealing literaly no damage (unless they get fed). And botlane is a fiesta of it's own at the very moment, since if you don't get 5manned on botlane by 7th minute, you're either in low elo, or enemies have an autofilled jungle+top.
LordOfTheLeague2 votesWhat does that even mean?
RiotMeddler16 votesSome of those buffs are planned, or on PBE. Regardless, listing purely nerfs without context of recent buffs paints an incomplete picture of change that affects marksmen.
We'd like to get melee champs into bot someday too. That's a much bigger task than getting mages in though, given mages tend to be closer in functionality to marksmen to begin with. Additionally we've got a functional, healthy seeming example of a mage as farming bot lane right now, which should make it easier again.
Ahristocats4 votesSome of those buffs are planned, or on PBE. Regardless, listing purely nerfs without context of recent buffs paints an incomplete picture of change that affects marksmen.
i see, now i understand i won't do it again
{quoted} We'd like to get melee champs into bot someday too. That's a much bigger task than getting mages in though, given mages tend to be closer in functionality to marksmen to begin with. Additionally we've got a functional, healthy seeming example of a mage as farming bot lane right now, which should make it easier again.
Thank you for this, you're definitly amazing there Looking for melee champs into bot is a bigger task indeed, but i think it's the only way to make them viable as they need tanks to work, a lot of them are squishy and picking them toplane will cripple their team
But what you said makes sens, i wish you good luck to make mages working botlane i can only hope you look to make 
botlane someday (without an xp passive please)
Stars Shaper1 votesAny plans of giving Artillery mages some diversity? Right now is just Ziggs or gtfo, with Xerath being at the bottom of the bucket.
Also... can we talk about those buffs to Fizz?
Sèx Craved Eve2 votesSome of those buffs are planned, or on PBE. Regardless, listing purely nerfs without context of recent buffs paints an incomplete picture of change that affects marksmen.
We'd like to get melee champs into bot someday too. That's a much bigger task than getting mages in though, given mages tend to be closer in functionality to marksmen to begin with. Additionally we've got a functional, healthy seeming example of a mage as farming bot lane right now, which should make it easier again.
Yeah, Meddler. You tell these guys to drop their bias in a subtle way that also makes them look dumb. I'm proud of you.
Critmaster Garen4 votesSome of those buffs are planned, or on PBE. Regardless, listing purely nerfs without context of recent buffs paints an incomplete picture of change that affects marksmen.
We'd like to get melee champs into bot someday too. That's a much bigger task than getting mages in though, given mages tend to be closer in functionality to marksmen to begin with. Additionally we've got a functional, healthy seeming example of a mage as farming bot lane right now, which should make it easier again.
first of all, let me say that im happy to hear that bot lane (or better duo lane) diversity is on the list of goals youre trying to accomplish in the long run. i do understand how you want to take one step at a time, and how apc are easier to fit into that position than melee champions, as a first step.
and second. have you thought about achieving that goal by increasing the xp stream to the duo lane via support itemization, similar to how its done with the gold stream? if items like 
for example wouldnt just share minion gold, but also xp. the basic requirement of making these items only effective with a partner nearby is pretty good design to limit their boons to these duo lanes.
not falling behind in levels compared to solo lanes would go a long way of increasing mage and fighter viability in the farm position in the duo lane.
this would also buff duo lane marksmen somewhat, but the impact on more level dependent champion types should still be comparably larger.
Sexy Jack Rabbit1 votesCan we just not solely balance mages for bot. Some people liked Ziggs, Zyra, Brand, Karma and Vel'koz mid. I'd hate to see Lux, Syndra, Ahri and Orianna forced there permanently as well. Forcing Mid-lane champions to go bot is not going to solve the issues with Support. Just fix the Support champions instead of ruining Mid-lane ones.
Meep Man1 votesI have some recommendations for Mage candidates that could be good APCs for Bottom Lane:
Of course, all these can't just be able to be in Bottom Lane. I was just naming some of the Mages with good potential for Bottom Lane success considering their play styles. The main ones to me that could be good candidates for this line of work are Azir, Cassiopeia, Karthus, Twisted Fate, and Veigar in particular.
EinarUlfar1 votesQuestion from a laning n00b that doesn't want to read every comment here; what sort of things give them good potential to be an APC Bot?
Spoofghoul1 voteswith range being an inherent advanatge, especially when laning vs melee, whilst simultaneously allowing for ranged champions to scale harder into late game with a plethora of counter defensive item choices available
no i do not ever see melee champions bot happening without them being ''broken''
However there are 2 that do work in botlane very well, depending on their supports
&
i have played + 
botlanes and this works great, i imagine he would also work with 
works with different champions, his best bot mate is 
their synergy is amazing, Sion can shoot zilean's bombs their combined ranged cc is very strong and sion can be sped up by zilean, this includes his passive ofc with extra bomb attached
Other supports that work well with Sion that i know of are 
& 
Both champions have their own ways of dealing with ranged match ups and the cool thing is they serve very different roles in a team composition
Many people do not really like playing vs yasuo because thye feel he has some ''bullshit mechanics''
However none have ever made that complaint about Sion
so if you want a melee botlaner i suggest you look at Sion for inspiration since he tends to do well provided he has a synergistic support
Albertoplus1 votesWould be awesome if 
and 
could go bot lane as the "old time melee adcs". :D
Sp33d Zer01 votesI'm interested as to why you feel Ashe is in a reasonable spot. I understand that she is strong in pro play right now (the only adcs that are are high utility) but she is at a 45.6% win rate right now https://na.op.gg/champion/ashe/statistics/adc. Any plans that will make her a better pick for solo/dynamic queue while not breaking her for competitive?
I am an Ashe main myself, and at about a 60% win rate on her, but I still feel like she isn't in a particularly good spot herself.
Ultîma3 votesSeems like the 50% increase to initial Lethality value was a massive overcompensation; any plays to lower the initial value from 60% to 50% to make it less snowbally than it is currently? Flat Lethality users are basically dealing true damage right now.
Dessem1 votesLethality buffed
Yeah, I'm a little worried that just buffs the marksmen who can buy lethality, whereas carries like Kalista, Jinx, Kog'Maw, Tristana, these aren't better off because they typically don't buy lethality. (Or do they now?)
GigglesO1 votes
- ADCs still the only regularly class as bot lane farmers with a single exception.
What is the exception?
AMYS GRAVE2 votesZiggs
LankPants1 votesJunglers nerfed benefiting botlane more than others
So uh, can we do something about the fact that this destroyed about half of junglers? Where are the Sejuani buffs, Amumu buffs, Shyvana buffs ect. There's a lot of very bad junglers right now who need help, when are they going to get it?
Thefrostyviking1 votesHello! Nice seeing that you guys are looking at the botlane^^
And i have question, a short while ago i found myself playing Ashe, i was doing moderately well for a casual but the rest of my team was doing very well. And as i was hanging onto their backs for dear life and success i suddenly got jumped by the enemy Rengar. He and i were quite even but he killed my Ashe in under 1,5 seconds before anyone in my team even had the chance to react. He died right after but it felt quite bad since i didn't really feel i could have done anything to stop him. And there are similar things with other assassins currently.
What are your thoughts? To me the lethality buffs seems to have pushed the "traditional" adc's and builds like ashe and crit far into the back in favor of those who use it. Because anything else doesn't quite work in comparison. It already felt difficult to play say Ashe or Jinx in the botlane due to constant and often huge harass from mages while also trying to farm without losing all ones health. Now with the rising assassins and lethality users it feels ....very difficult to even survive a minute without something like a thresh or Braum hugging you.
And please do something for malz, i am well aware that his old kit was very, very unhealthy in terms of counterplay but i can't even get his current one to work in the midlane anymore, and his passive discolors any skin that isn't purple except the snowday one. My biggest issue was in a AOE heavy teamfight when my voidlings kept dying of random shots here and there which seems to cripple Malzahar's damage. I felt very useless and my damage in the end was among the lowest in that game. It was not a good experience to play him and many on the forums seems to have the same issue.
Thank you for reading and i hope you´ll have a nice day/night/morning.
Frius2 votes
??
Frius2 votesnot cool nerfing assassin itemization because markmen abuse lethality ,then they switch to reaver/infinity edge/shiv/pd back.
Chromatic Eagle1 votesWhat's the single exception?
ForgiveColour1 voteslucian buffed
Ecks dee
Big Lincoln7 votesriot will push mages to go bot lane but melees will continue to be forced top/jungle
when is this injustice going to be addressed?
Ahristocats3 votes[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cjhHlGTK,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-02-10T19:48:24.024+0000)
riot will push mages to go bot lane but melees will continue to be forced top/jungle
idk, he didn't even talk about morde
Big Lincoln3 votesDisgusting bias tbh
Justice for melees I'm sick of it
ilý6 votesHaving more mages bot lane worries me.
LordOfTheLeague1 votesOne thing at a time please, I want to see some mages (more than 1) being played bot lane in LCS as carries and then we can start asking for melee.
I actually don't think melees will ever be played there tho.
Big Lincoln2 votesyou guys are already populating mid and top
addressing melee v ranged would be far more impressive than making more shitdesign mages take over another lane
LordOfTheLeague1 votesYou think I ask that because I play mages? Yeah no.
And melees are present as the rule in two lanes already with top and jungle. They are played mid a lot aswell.
But meddler just commented and just said the same thing as me.
It will be way easier to put some mages bot than melees.
Big Lincoln2 votesIt will be way easier to put some mages bot than melees.
and it will make the game worse, just like we've seen with 
replacing ADCs and replacing supports. low counterplay, low interaction champs that do a lot of damage with not a lot of effort or risk. you think that's healthier? you want more of that?
And melees are present as the rule in two lanes already with top and jungle
because they can't survive mid or bot
They are played mid a lot aswell.
only assassins with poke and gap closers.
LordOfTheLeague1 votesIf it will make the game worse is only your opinion.
Ziggs being bot lane is far from unhealthy, you can dodge his skills and he lacks damage in long fights.
Malzahar going bot is just a problem with malzahar and his point and click auto win and CC immunity.
And don't think what is the problem with mid melee being assassins.
Jorencice1 votesThe problem is i simply dont think its possible.
Either the ranged has enough escapes to out play melee which makes them worthless
OR melee can 1 shot ranged which makes ranged worthless.
There is no way to make them play nice.
ForgiveColour1 votesWhy do they want more mages in bot lane? Its not diversity if mage supports are pushing everything out lmao
doublelift fg6 votes"not straight buffs" don't touch twitch then, i know well riot that this means there is a 80% chance their change ends up being a nerf (cough veigar first rework)
they want mages to go bot? what about melee carries? when is jax going to return to botlane that he left 5 years ago when he was reworked? wtf i prefer fighting melees than any mages except maybe ziggs if cass ends up bot i delete this game in the same day
Best princess EU4 voteswell i'm ready to play ahri botlane then
Slythion2 votesAhri adc is something I've been considering for awhile, she has a lot of self-peel and decent utility to the point where I can imagine it working :3
Best princess EU1 votesi don't think it will ever work
you give me the choise between bot and mid i will take mid anytime because ahri's waveclear--->gank is strong i don't know what riot will do to "encourage" mages to go bot
Dolasaur1 votesI don't think Ziggs would be bot right now if he hadn't had his MYMU. They could make certain spells affects towers (not necessarily hurting them, but at least interacting with them in some way). I could see things like Syndra E or Veigar W having that functionality added to some extent.
THE RlVER KlNG4 votesUmm Caitlyn where?