Tanks will never be able to have individual power curves as long as %Pen items exist

FalconPawwwwnch·Feb 7, 2017·49 votes·2,367 views

With the vanguard update coming soon people are saying how tanks should have individual power curves within just like every other class does

But this will never be achievable as long as Last Whisper Items/Void staff exist. Their existence means all tanks suck ass late game by design, so they need to be compensated elsewhere. This is why tanks early/mid games are so absurd because their resists are jacked up to compensate for void staff/LW but this means normal champions can't really kill them ever.

Until we address this there will never be diversity among tank scaling

Things that need to happen: Remove %Pen items Nerf all armor/mr items by 25% or so

36 Comments

dunder killFeb 8, 201720 votes

Can we remove %HP True damage while we're at it?

AimléssFeb 8, 20172 votes

You Tank mains can get fed and not die till the 30 minute mark when the adc finally gets their items, but yeah even though you're unkillable pre 30, you guys would rather stay unkillable then too huh? Maybe if tanks lost some of their early tankiness they could have late game tankiness.

macromiteFeb 8, 20172 votes

that's when a tank is fed or when your team sucks ass.

DunkinNoobsFeb 7, 201711 votes

Tanks don't fall off late game. Their level of durability does, but the value of their CC is at an absolute premium. That's why teams without a frontline almost always lose late game.

Papa AndreiFeb 7, 20176 votes

Thats not the issue being discussed. Its a valid point but..

DunkinNoobsFeb 7, 20175 votes

If tanks durability didn't fall off late game, people would pick nothing but tanks in top, jg, and support.

XeroKimoFeb 8, 20176 votes

Well tanks alone can't win games, or else they'd be an absurdly broken class, there's no class that can win a game alone against a standard comp

5000000000000000Feb 8, 20174 votes

Divers? Pretty sure 5 divers can beat a standard comp, and not just from being overtuned like now.

Baron of BreadFeb 8, 20172 votes

The problem with the bruiser meta is that it tends to struggle in the early game against safe laners and struggles late game against Janna (and probably others like Gragas, but mostly Janna).

PB4UAMEFeb 8, 20176 votes

No, you'd see protect the carry comps again. We've seen this before back when Trist, Kog and Vayne where meta about 4-5 years ago. It's better to have an enchanter for AoE utility buffs, and some form of ranged carry, either for teamfighting or sieging/pushing, than a fourth and fifth tank due to sort of inherent diminishing returns of role stacking-- at a certain point you start getting less and less out of each additional point of EHP your team collectively has at the cost of damage and utility you could have potentially had instead. The Most Effective TActic is always an attempt to optimize those values of damage, durability and uttility. At no point has one of those aspects completely eclipsed the other, though lately damage has been tending towards masking durability.

5000000000000000Feb 8, 20171 votes

Who cares about protecting ADC when support does what ADC does anyway ADC in 2017

Big LincolnFeb 8, 20171 votes

didn't know supports could crit people to death and smash towers

would love a support like that though

AhristocatsFeb 7, 20178 votes

said multiple time that armor/mr should be balanced around not having lw//void staff in the game but people said that it would take too much work

RebonackFeb 7, 20176 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Sona x Rubick,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cjEEKvhQ,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-02-07T20:42:47.973+0000)

said multiple time that armor/mr should be balanced around not having lw//void staff in the game but people said that it would take too much work

I know several folks (myself included) were asking for this when Riot was hashing out the Marksmen update last year. Having %Pen on items means resists have to be so high that Tanks are immortal to people without Whisper/Void and feel soft against people with Whisper/Void. End result? Someone is always going to feel bad.

If %Pen/Shred were an effect limited to champion kits only then Riot could balance the game around sane resist values. That would also increase the value of spells like Kog's Q and Trundle's Ult against hard front lines. As it stands right now everyone resist shreds.

Sagan ForeverFeb 7, 20172 votes

Let's hope they do this for the tank update, I mean if there is a time to do the work it is when they are remaking all tank items.

EndlessSorcererFeb 7, 20174 votes

Healing and Grievous Wounds are in a similar situation.

Meep ManFeb 7, 20175 votes

I don't agree with you entirely, but can somewhat agree with your idea. I do think Tanks need a counter through % Pen, but I think that Tanks should have other ways besides just Armor and Magic Resist to reduce damage dealt to them through items.

RebonackFeb 7, 20174 votes

[{quoted}](name=Chicken Dynasty,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cjEEKvhQ,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2017-02-07T22:30:22.290+0000)

I don't agree with you entirely, but can somewhat agree with your idea. I do think Tanks need a counter through % Pen, but I think that Tanks should have other ways besides just Armor and Magic Resist to reduce damage dealt to them through items.

Riot could just put more emphasis on %HP damage, which honestly is a healthier mechanic all things considered. %HP damage soft-counters HP stacking while %Pen hard-counters resist stacking. %Pen is bad enough that when you're matched against a champ with both %Shred and cleaver you're better off building Tabi and then stacking the hell out of HP.

Meep ManFeb 7, 20173 votes

I personally find Black Cleaver to be the most unhealthy form of % Pen. It provides every physical damage dealer on your team with increased damage. That's STUPIDLY good and promotes all AD teams, especially when you compare it to the AP counterpart (abyssal). I find Last Whisper to be decently healthy, although the side effects might need to be changed slightly. Void Staff needs to be modernized if you know what I mean (Bonus Magic Pen not Base Magic Pen).

SpoofghoulFeb 8, 20171 votes

i agree with this

another change to make pen healthier is to apply flat pen before %pen to discourage stacking of both

then just something needs to be done about cleaver

yingwhyFeb 8, 20174 votes

Also, % health true damage

ZT XperimentorFeb 8, 20174 votes

And nerf damage across the board, so games require strategy again.

agbudarFeb 7, 20173 votes

what if item 3033 item 3036 item 3135 get removed and mages get a similar item such as item 3071 for them that stacks mr reduction.

item 3071 is imo a lot better for the health of the game then the 3 %ar/mr penetratrion who tripple handedly have warped all the tanks in the game to be as retarded as they are currently,

then with the vanguard update you could rebalance all the tank items without these three in the way rebalance tanks in a health way and bada bim bada boom healthy tank meta.

ow and please riot get rid of the absurd base damage scaling tanks have thank you.

majulitoFeb 7, 20172 votes

The problem with black cleaver for mages is that they rely on cds. So they would most likely have to blow all their spells just to get the reduction but then have nothing to follow up on a now weakened target. Combine that with the fact that most spells are skill shots so there is no guarantee you would ever stack it fully.

5000000000000000Feb 8, 20172 votes

Which would suggest we'd need some sort of active items that increase damage taken by the enemy temporarily... Oh wait.

Sahn UzalFeb 7, 20172 votes

https://clips.twitch.tv/wickd/TenderDuckPJSalt

Just leaving this here.

ElikainFeb 7, 20172 votes

Tanks will never be able to have individual power curves as long as %Pen items exist

That's not true at all. What tanks need is a Class Update respectively. What they should get in the update is pronounced kits to differentiate them between each other because the tanks we have now (at least the meta tanks) do the same stuff almost entirely and the best tank for the job is the tank that stat checks out. Same issue Assassins had prior to their class update.

If you eliminate resistance penetration items, that would mean tanks could get "infinitely" tanky at one point, completely starting to shut down damage champions.

5000000000000000Feb 8, 20174 votes

While tanks not being diverse is true (more or less, as there are definitely outliers), this post isn't really about that.

In ADC roles, there are early game ADCs, mid game ADCs, and late game ADCs. And mix of some too, of course. But for tanks, such distinction is difficult to balance for because late game is when offense outscales defense. 6 item ADC will shred through 6 item tank, because %pen exists. The game is balanced around that so it's not really that unhealthy. BUT, if we are to give tanks individual power curves (some early game tanks, some mid game tanks, some late game tanks), %penetration needs to change somehow.

ElikainFeb 8, 20171 votes

Riot did say that tank itemization, along with % pen itemization, is going to get looked at at the same time as the as the Tank Update.

EedatFeb 8, 20172 votes

What if..... they added an item that negated Pen?

Make an item that removes 10% off %Pen items. Like it would make Void only pen 25% total, LDR only pen 35% Bonus, and BC only pens 20% total??

It could have +55 Armor, +55 MR, the above mentioned passive, and cost like 3k? I dunno how it would work with flat pen tbh

duckarpFeb 8, 20172 votes

That could happen under one condition - tanks would actually be tanks. Not damage dealers who are extremely durable, which is the case for many champions out there. Until it changes, other classes need some means of dealing with them, otherwise everyone would just pick a tank, because it would be the best strategy... So sure, get rid of %pen items, but let's get rid of insane damage of tanks as well. If you decide to build as a tank, you shouldn't get more damage along the way and vice versa.

wishbone25Feb 7, 20171 votes

their tanks why not counter it ? then again u will ask for more nerfs !!! until no champ does any damage with any build u make ?

RookPusherFeb 7, 20171 votes

Maybe the power curve isn't the answer, but giving them more utility. I personally don't play tanks to kill. I play then to feel like Godzilla, and to make others feel like Tokyo residents.

WoonStruckFeb 8, 20171 votes

I've been saying this for yearsssss.

taken by sleepFeb 8, 20171 votes

I can feel this. Recently I feel like any tank is negated by Lethality and Armor/Magic pen. Even tank fighters suffer, I've been considering changing how I play Darius. Instead of prioritizing armor and health to sustain longer in combat, I should literally just build minor resistance and take items that deal damage along with building health. There's no point in building so much resistance if a power house with a Last Whisper and Duskblade can literally melt my 3,800HP despite having 200 armor and magic resist.

Unlucky47Feb 9, 20171 votes

I agree that percent pen is a problem but if they're going to reduce it that much then there needs to be a major reduction on damage based items with defensive stats by a lot more than 25%. If void staff barely goes through mr then Maw, edge of night, and mecurial are all going to need less mr.

And then on top of that tanks are going to have to do significantly less damage than they do currently because without percent pen they would be almost unkillable if they only nerf armor/mr that much. And I think tanks should be really difficult/take a long time to kill but not if they're going to kill me before I can do anything about it. This kind of change would make champions like renekton, nasus, darius, irelia, or any other tanky top lane fighter insanely strong because they would be unkillable and burst people.