Give me one reason Zed should retain his % AD bonus on W

Hibeki·Dec 17, 2014·17 votes·1,846 views

title

48 Comments

Cale017Dec 17, 201418 votes

"Because fuck you."

Sincerely, Zed mains.

Ashes AriseDec 17, 20149 votes

Because he is the most well designed pure assassin champion in the game.

I would classify the following champions as pure assassins, and I will give a reason/s why I feel they aren't designed as well as Zed. I'm not calling these champions unbalanced or OP. I'm just stating why I feel Zed is better designed, and should be rewarded for it.

-Akali I don't need to go into detail on this one. Pretty universally agreed that she is one of the worst designed champs in the game. From the synergy of over the top spellvamp and heavy stealth to being un-kiteable due to R

-Evelynn Constantly being nerfed to unviablility because of the lack of counter play. Her nearly infinite stealth allows her to pass by wards and sneak up on people a little too well. When she does ambush a person she has very strong chase and misleading escape. Chasing an Evelynn is very similar to chasing a singed. She can damage you with hatespikes by spamming it during her escape, and can turn on you with nearly unparalleled chase.

-Fizz Massive aoe damage and one of the highest bursts in the game (Veigar exists). Extreme mobility, burst and high sustained damage. He is also one of the most difficult champions in the game to attack even in meelee range. He has no stealth, but does that really even matter with this champion?

-Kassadin R R R R R R R R R R R R R R R R R

-Katarina Oh dear god. The Queen of aoe assassination. When I hear the term "assassin" I picture someone quickly taking out a single target. This champion can assassinate an entire team. Her resets give her power in ways that it shouldn't. There are situations where 1 person can easily duel her but the presence of a squishier team mate can put the odds in her favor instead of the other team. It is really strange that there are situation in most games where she has a better chance of going 1v3+ than she does in a 1v1 against one of the same champions.

-LeBlanc LeBitch

-Shaco The King of deception and stealth. This champion laughs in the face of Riot's philosophy on clarity. His entire kit is based on destroying clarity.

-Talon His single target assassination has the least counterplay attached to it of any other assassinate in the game. That is pretty much it. Rengar used to be a close 2nd, but since his rework he can be viably played closer to a bruiser. This is why I'm leaving Rengar off this list.

Remember, I'm not saying I have a problem with these assassins. I'm merely showing how Zed is the most well designed champion in the role that has most of the worst designed champions in the game.

In the end, Zed is a single target assassin, without stealth, that has very well established counter play. He can be frustrating to play against, but that is because of his role. It isn't because his individual champion design.

Troy242621Dec 17, 20144 votes

Zed has entirely too much escaping power on top of being impossible to fully shut down to be considered perfect. His capacity to farm and split push are incredible. He's insanely hard to gank, and can snowball ridiculously hard.

That isn't perfect. I'm not saying he's some OP king of assassins, but I AM saying that the people that herald him as the perfectly designed assassin are overlooking some very serious design flaws.

Epilogue of LifeDec 17, 20146 votes

Same reason why Zhonya's and QSS and Kayle ult retain their abilities to render Zed absolutely fucking useless.

Chaotic ReksDec 17, 20148 votes

and every other champion...

Ashes AriseDec 17, 20145 votes

[{quoted}](name=NyX Reks,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=chfr1quZ,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2014-12-17T11:22:19.486+0000)

and every other champion...

You obviously have never truly played Zed if you don't understand how devastating Zhonya's and Kayle's ult are to Zed.

Chaotic ReksDec 17, 20146 votes

i used to play zed, so i understand the problem. I was stating that those counter EVERY OTHER CHAMPION as well, so it's nothing special. It's just like people saying that CC is Yi's counter...

Ashes AriseDec 17, 20143 votes

No. It really isn't. It is literally the strongest counter interaction in the entire game. The only other situations that even compare are things like Yasuo blocking an Ashe ult.

ExiledTyrantDec 18, 20141 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ashes Arise,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=chfr1quZ,comment-id=00010000000000000000,timestamp=2014-12-17T17:00:13.604+0000)

No. It really isn't. It is literally the strongest counter interaction in the entire game. The only other situations that even compare are things like Yasuo blocking an Ashe ult.

Mordekaiser negated by item 3026 item 2003 item 3140 item 3157 Kayle Tryndamere Yorick Zilean Aatrox Zac

The biggest slap in the face possibly being potion and it's effectiveness to negate a morde ult all game outside of ignite. A champ who faces lower numbers and ratios simply for the possibility that his ult succeeds and we want to shed a tear for Zed? Strongest counter in the entire game is a major overstatement.

Epilogue of LifeDec 17, 20142 votes

But it still counters Zed

Knight DevoutDec 17, 20145 votes

Because CertainlyT shouldn't be allowed nowhere near champion creation after the first sketch ;_; his ideas are cool, but maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan, does he err on the overpowered side. I mean,it's basically the same steroid riven has on his ult, except she only has it for the duration, and it's ult cooldown was nerfed last season.

SaiannaDec 17, 20142 votes

I dunno why you got downvoted by telling truth...

But w/e. Sooner or later CertainlyT will add another freak-like champion with overloaded kit (that could be distributed to 4 other champions), that will steal Zeds shiny throne.

Knight DevoutDec 17, 20141 votes

OR he will get the Thresh treatment . I.E. they choose to keep his damage but nerf everything else, from shadow vision to the shadow slash slow.

SaiannaDec 17, 20141 votes

Have in mind that Thresh even after all his reworks is still solid and strong support-tank. So nerfing him just like thresh would take some time (few patches) and in end he'd still be strong (which i don't really mind, but considering how long he was on top, being bit UP wouldn't hurt)

Knight DevoutDec 17, 20141 votes

he would be a strong melee assassin that can assassinate properly, but that cannot splitpush, and cannot bust tanks.

SaiannaDec 17, 20141 votes

I believe you wanted to say burst. But i like your version :D I don;t really see where nerfing vision or slow would be meaningful though. It's not vision or slow but his combo-wombo that kills afterall :/

Knight DevoutDec 17, 20141 votes

nah, bust, as in, with enough armpen, the damage from Botrk being reprocced by shadow mark is enough to make Botrk look obscene. Since, you know, when he lands 3 or 4 autos for 8% current health when the target has 4k max health, it's like 600-900 bonus damage from the autos alone, then he procs his passive, then he uses the active, and he deals another 900 physical damage+600 magic damage.... yeah, that's enough to make even a tank have to back up (if he even survive).

SaiannaDec 17, 20142 votes

I think you might have forgotten his passive has... about 8s cd on same target. Unless i got something wrong.

EDIT:

DON'T MAKE ME DEFEND ZED, YOU BASTARD!

Knight DevoutDec 17, 20141 votes

Umh, yes, but with death mark , if the target falls below 50% health, and the passive procs while death mark is active, that damage will be applied again in a smaller %. Rank 3 Death Mark, passive deals 10% max health, then 5% max health when the mark procs.

Same with blade of the ruined king. And it's passive effect on autoattacks. The only thing not factored is true damage.

SaiannaDec 17, 20141 votes

Didn't know that..

causeimdabatmanDec 17, 20144 votes

To everyone who thinks zed is OP and needs a nerf: Fuck you. You obviously don't know what you're talking about and you blatantly suck at this game and you're blaming it on the champ. Zed can be fucking destroyed by almost any form of cc, he is easily countered here's 4 champs that counter him for you because you're an idiot Katarina Akali Malzahar Fizz and you can fucking itemize against zed and negate hes whole kit, just buy item 3157 and when he ults you hourglass and his deathmark doesn't do shit.

HayaishiDec 17, 20144 votes

Plebs actually think Zed is well designed.

He's the Lee Sin of assassins.

Earl EulrichDec 17, 20143 votes

It encourages to not just go for the Botrk/Ghostblade/rightclick to win build.

PsyFi SamuraiDec 17, 20143 votes

It's what brings him together in my opinion. He is easily countered in lane by positioning and even an item that almost negates his whole kit. Also, how does it overload his kit as you've said; I don't understand.

Hasztalan2Dec 17, 20143 votes

There is absolutely no reason and one of the main reasons he is op as fuck.

But you know rito is well known for their balancing knowledge so whatever.

KingsgraveDec 17, 20143 votes

CertainlyT said that he put it on there last minute because Zed had crazy weird power curve issues, so he put that on there and lowered most of his bonus AD ratios and bases to accommodate for it.

I'm curious to see how Zed would play without it, but I doubt it would be any better for the game. If anything we just get more insane random power spikes like Talon but on an actually mobile champion.

Yeah no thanks.

Blade of JusticDec 17, 20143 votes

I don't get the Zed complaints. When I fight a Zed, I just rush a Zhonya's and play Malzahar.

That being said, why does Darius get armor pen on his apprehend?

Why does Yi and Fiora get added AD in their skills?

I can't answer those questions, but if you can, then we might be a step closer to answering yours.

redniwediSDec 17, 20142 votes

The main reason I can think of is because there's no balance reason to get rid of it. Why make Riot do extra work when it's not required?

HibekiDec 17, 20146 votes

Because it's just overloading his kit?

If there is no reason for it to be there that's a perfect reason to get rid of it.

redniwediSDec 17, 20143 votes

There are plenty of reasons for it to be here, however even though you're asking a question in your OP it's said in a way that makes a statement. You're stating that Zed should not have it.

I don't really want to pull the whole burden of proof thing on you, but if you're just going to use conjecture as your evidence I'll have to do it.

Fed by Snu SnuDec 17, 20149 votes

{quoted}

There are plenty of reasons for it to be here, however even though you're asking a question in your OP it's said in a way that makes a statement. You're stating that Zed should not have it.

I don't really want to pull the whole burden of proof thing on you, but if you're just going to use conjecture as your evidence I'll have to do it.

Burden of proof: Zed shouldn't be able to split push that effectively while being far behind, on top of the assassinating power he has.

There, done.

redniwediSDec 17, 20142 votes

That's not at all how it works... Not even remotely close. Making a statement means evidence, if it is required, is only required by the one who made the statement. All you did was make another statement.

Fed by Snu SnuDec 17, 20142 votes

Zed has strong assassinating power. Zed has strong split push potential, even when behind.

Those are facts. Those don't need any burden of proof.

Zed shouldn't be able to have both. That's a statement.

Said statement stems from the general average power of what other champions have as their strong points. The reason for it is that noone else gets to excell at both of these, to such an extent, from so early in the game. (except pre-rework rengo, but guess what, he got reworked exactly for that reason.)

Under other circumstances, i.e. all champions being much stronger, zed might have been fine to have both of these strengths.

I don't think you understand what burden of proof means. There's your evidence. 2 facts and the whole champion roster having no equal to excel at both of these areas. And the one champion who did use to got reworked exactly for that reason.

redniwediSDec 17, 20143 votes

So Lee Sin, Master Yi, Nocturne, Udyr, and Wukong don't have split push potential and assassinating power? Should none of them have both? You're bending facts to support your argument.

I do not believe how early these champions become strong in either area actually matters, as split pushing is not an early game tactic, and assassinations typically only require a lead over your opponents. All of these champions, including post-rework Rengar, have both of these attributes. The only one that might be argued is Udyr, and that is simply because he is not an assassin, even though he can do the same thing that an assassin can.

And yes, I know what the burden of proof means. It means whoever makes a statement is required to provide evidence that supports it. Your argument here is that no other champion has strong assassinating power and strong split push potential, and as such Zed should not have both. Unless you're planning to pick at each of the champions I've mentioned and make a very, very overly specific argument I do believe you're going to need a new one.

Fed by Snu SnuDec 17, 20142 votes

Split push potential also means a necessary level of safety. Half of the champions you mentioned lack the safety levels of Zed and the other half lack the assassinating power. Some of them also require MANY more items before they can even come close to having any assassinating power to begin with. Zed only needs a botrk.

If you even try to claim that Nocture, Yi or Wu Kong can assassinate with 1 item, then please go ahead so that I stop bothering with your pretentious ass already.

In fact, Wu kong can't assassinate in general, he always duels.

I do not believe how early these champions become strong in either area actually matters

Ye, see, I'm not obliged to play by your rules. But it's always fun to apply them to you. Now, you still haven't met your burden on proof over why it doesn't matter early on a sufficient level, since split pushing can have a significant impact as soon as the change from early to mid game in order to secure dragons.

Two can play this game.

redniwediSDec 17, 20142 votes

You really don't understand the burden of proof... Why do people not look these things up and at least pretend that they know.

I did say why timing doesn't matter. Assassinations are not time based, and split pushing is mid-late game only. By the time both of these are in full effect any champion on my list will be able to do both of these things. This should not be something that requires evidence to support, these are facts.

Now, instead of attempting to say the champions I mentioned can assassinate with one item I will instead say that it does not matter. Assassins can assassinate with one item, however all champions I mentioned can assassinate at certain points of the game. I've already said why timing doesn't matter for our conversation. Unless you're going to add on unnecessary things to the term assassinate I think we can both agree it involves dropping someone from full health to dead before they are allowed to properly respond.

On the topic of split pushing safety I have to point something out, safety is not an inherent part of split pushing. Yi and Udyr can split push harder and faster than a Zed ever could, even though they are not as safe. They instead get what safety they have from their killing potential. If you do not send enough team members to stop them they will all in and kill whoever was unlucky enough to show up.

Pointless addons aside every champion I have mentioned has great split pushing speed and great 100-0 potential. If you want to talk about safety in general you will have to also deal with champions like Fizz, Lee Sin, Kassadin and Gnar, as they have similar if not better levels of in lane safety than Zed does.

On top of all this you're focusing only on the strengths of Zed. No other champion should have the same exact strengths as another champion, and so comparing two together in an attempt to show that one is overly strong is honestly impossible. You can compare champion attributes, but to do so you have to ignore all other attributes. You cannot compare champions based on their safety, and say one is stronger because of their split pushing. I'm not using the word cannot lightly here, and if you don't understand why I doubt you'd be interested in figuring it out. I'll give you a hint, I'm not playing by my rules here.

I've been in plenty of arguments with people like you in the past. If you reply with anything more than insults and nit picking I'd be pleasantly surprised. However if you're just like everyone else who doesn't understand how to have a legitimate argument I'll just say good day to you.

Fed by Snu SnuDec 17, 20141 votes

Well, you wrote all of that for no reason at all I guess.

If you disregard anything as "it doesn't matter", then you have no clue whatsoever of what you are talking about, because it does matter.

It isn't any different no matter how much you try to claim otherwise. The timing of your power spikes DOES matter. That's a fact. No matter how much you repeat it will make it true, so by default your entirety of statements are false.

redniwediSDec 17, 20141 votes

Does it matter in the actual match? Yes, of course. Does it matter for the sake of our discussion? No.

If you want to talk about early game Zed there's no need to mention split pushing. If you want to talk about late game Zed you'd be unable to ignore other champions that do what he does in a better way. For the sake of discussing the attributes themselves timing does not matter.

Fed by Snu SnuDec 17, 20141 votes

Actually, it matters for the sake of the discussion as well.

Which is why you pretty much lost me at trying to argue with you.

When you talk about balance, everything matters. Sorry to burst your bubble.

redniwediSDec 17, 20141 votes

Saying "everything matters" doesn't actually explain why you think a discussion on split pushing strength and assassinating power needs to take timing into account.

If everything matters then you can't ignore the champions I mentioned before. If you're looking at Zed's split pushing you have to look at all split pushers. If you're talking about Zed's assassination capability you have to look at all champions who can assassinate. If you're talking about Zed's safety you have to look at all safe champions.

What you're doing is looking at all three at once, and since you're looking for champions with similar capabilities in each you will be left with only Zed. If we had, say, 500+ champions this might be something worth doing, but as we are each champion has a unique combination of attributes. You cannot look at every strength a particular champion has and say it's too strong because no other champion is close to all of them.

I've said my opinion on timing well enough, so I won't touch that matter again. Instead I'll turn this conversation back on it's proper course. If you're willing to actually read my posts you will hopefully see that you cannot compare champions in the way you originally attempted to do, and so your original statement is left unsupported. If you're done poking at my responses perhaps you'd like to try again.

AMYS GRAVEDec 17, 20141 votes

zed has safety when split pushing which many of those lack and only needs one item all game to be a killing monster.

NarasimhaDec 17, 20142 votes

So what about MasterYi or Fiora ?

Fed by Snu SnuDec 18, 20141 votes

Fiora doesn't have safety and her split pushing can be easilly punished.

Yi is plain shit without snowballing and his main job is cleaning up and becoming a monster. Yi also requires many more items in order to be dangerous.

metaworldpeace10Dec 17, 20142 votes

I don't think Zed needs to be nerfed persay, but I do believe tanks need better itemization so that Zed/Fizz/LB/Akali can't one shot tanks late game like they can now.

Leblancs BoobDec 17, 20141 votes

He doesn't need it

Hard PenetratorDec 17, 20141 votes

Zed needs some tuning but taking away his W passive will only force Riot to buff his ratios and that won't change anything for us. If you want to nerf champion in more creative/smart way you need to find out what part of his kit should be toned down so that he can still be good but not as problematic.

For me Zed is way to strong on early lvls. His cs is always really high even for ranged character not to mention melle one. Plus dmg amp from Bork is stupid and it should be removed. It forces him to buy this item because there is no better choice where characters like riven can go either hydra, or bt, or cd reduction pen build.

HibekiDec 31, 20141 votes