Riot says they want Assassins to have higher windows of vulnerability aka risk for their huge reward

Kingsgrave··6 votes·952 views

With the following 6 4 changes I plan to do just that. Reducing the range that Zed may escape and close the gap onto someone and giving the opponent more time to react in general.

I personally do not think that Zed's problems lie in his damage, his poke, his waveclear or his trading in any way. I think his problems lie entirely in the safety of his passive and Ultimate and by stripping away some of the safety from both I think he would be a lot less stressful to play against and give the opponent more room to be skillful in their retreat and defensive maneuvers against the Shadow Master.

  1. Zed can only teleport to a shadow if he is within 550 range of the shadow (this is specifically made for his R shadow)

  2. Ultimate range reduced to 550 from 625

  3. Ultimate shadow duration reduced to 4 seconds from 6 (it is now the same duration as his W shadow)

  4. Zed's passive triggers at 25% health or lower reduced from 50% reduced health

5. Zed is untargetable for .5 seconds upon R activation reduced from .75 seconds (to give the person facing him slightly more time to react)

6. Per Target CD of Zed's passive is increased to 16 seconds from 10

10 Comments

Clint Orris3 votes

Upvoting anything that nerfs zed!!

Sightless662 votes

Way too much all together. #1 would be a terrible change. #6 probably won't help much. The others are worth individual consideration.

Kingsgrave3 votes

{quoted}

Way too much all together. 1 would be a terrible change. 6 probably won't help much. The others are worth individual consideration.

Noted and I agree on number 6. 1 seems highly important honestly. The fact that he can Ult someone that flashes away and teleport like 1100 or so range away from his R shadow seems a tad ridiculous.

Sightless662 votes

The ability to travel significant distances is a major factor in what makes the skill work as an escape, and it's not actually that terrible to play against because it's only a factor once he's already traveled a significant distance. Limiting the distance that much kills a massive number of things that the skill can be used for, including a ton of the uses for the ult shadow. Having it be that limited isn't necessary to balance him, it won't do that much to make him more fun to play against, and it would absolutely kill a lot of the fun in him. It's way too restrictive, and I don't think it's a suggestion that has any eye towards keeping him enjoyable to play. It just has way too much potential to be extremely frustrating to play with.

The fact that he can Ult someone that flashes away and teleport like 1100 or so range away from his R shadow seems a tad ridiculous.

I don't really agree that it's ridiculous. They flashed away while he was in the ult. It's not unreasonable for him to keep the same jump point and be able to use it. I think it would be much more ridiculous if someone flashing or dashing away effectively cancelled his ability to use the R shadow to jump out. That's way too easy of a counter to manipulate.

Kingsgrave1 votes

{quoted}

The ability to travel significant distances is a major factor in what makes the skill work as an escape, and it's not actually that terrible to play against because it's only a factor once he's already traveled a significant distance. Limiting the distance that much kills a massive number of things that the skill can be used for, including a ton of the uses for the ult shadow. Having it be that limited isn't necessary to balance him, it won't do that much to make him more fun to play against, and it would absolutely kill a lot of the fun in him. It's way too restrictive, and I don't think it's a suggestion that has any eye towards keeping him enjoyable to play. It just has way too much potential to be extremely frustrating to play with.

I don't really agree that it's ridiculous. They flashed away while he was in the ult. It's not unreasonable for him to keep the same jump point and be able to use it. I think it would be much more ridiculous if someone flashing or dashing away effectively cancelled his ability to use the R shadow to jump out. That's way too easy of a counter to manipulate.

If anything it makes you think of when to ult a lot more than you do currently on live. If they just flash you can go "welp worth" and just ult back to your shadow instead of having to use your W to go back or using ghostblade or anything of the sort. He needs to be riskier to play. Remember the days when he didn't even have an ult shadow placed where he was before ulting?

Sightless662 votes

If anything it makes you think of when to ult a lot more than you do currently on live.

It doesn't change the amount of thinking I have to put into whether or not an ult is worth using. It just changes the point at which I determine that specific outcomes are likely. There isn't any additional thought that goes into it.

It's a very easy thing to think about. "Does this Corki have his dash? Well, I'll die if I ult him and he's even remotely competent because I'm going into his team and I can't get out". I don't have to do a ton of assessment about how I'll play if that happens because I have very few options if I get pulled into an enemy team or too far away from my shadow. Zed doesn't have a response if someone pulls him in a dash. His only thoughts at that point are "can I kill this guy before I die?", because you don't really have other choices. With the current iteration, it causes you to reassess whether or not trying for the kill is worthwhile in comparison to the risk of fighting. With your proposal, that isn't something I have to think about, because it's not an option.

It's too much control to an opposing player without any opportunity for Zed to react to it. If he has a flash, Zed gets carried away and can't do much of anything to react. If he doesn't, it plays out as normal. Not really a more interesting paradigm. And that's just for the scenario with the ult. For general usage, it's even less appealing because it often isn't an opponent making an active decision to take Zed away from his escape shadow, it just kind of happens. That's a recipe for frustrating gameplay.

Like I said, it's going to be extremely frustrating to use because this has been one of the primary functions of the skill, and I don't think it's going to be much more satisfying for the opponents in most situations. I don't like it. I think it's unnecessarily damaging to what makes the champion fun without actually making the experience much more enjoyable for opponents. Changes do need to be at least somewhat aimed at preserving fun for the champion.

Remember the days when he didn't even have an ult shadow placed where he was before ulting?

Yes, and I remember people would throw shadows behind them before they ulted if they needed an escape. It wasn't a very different situation, and to be honest, I liked it less. Having the shadow thrown behind him was a good change.

steelblacksky1 votes

1 reduce attack animation wind down so overall he can get off his attack faster but not repeat attacks. this protects a major element of his mechanics.

2 change the scaling on q and e to depend directly upon the percentage granted by w. no more bonus damage to q and e until points placed in w. no massive ramp on q and e until multiple points in w.

3 w passive no longer applies bonus ad to zed. instead provides a figure to use for q and e ratios with a still based on bonus ad % per point in w. ad bonus that would go to all attacks including autos now applies bonus damage instead in some way to his passive below x% health execute. probably by increasing the threshold % health.

result: huge reduction in tower pushing power. requires more skilling choices than hurr durr max q e and 1 point wonder w.

requires more work maximizing more limited early damages from q and e and use of shadow. executions still go cleanly if properly executed due to being able to get those shadow swap/dash empowered first aa's off, but more work to set them up and less chance to get a second aa off if you misjudge it. max level/lategame should be pretty much even, less the turret wrecking power.

example. rank 1 q gets some ratio here of w passive bonus. no w, and its just the flat damage per level no matter how much ad is built.

passive bonus adds ratio of w passive increased health threshold for applying execute damage.

1 point in w 1 point in q 20 bonus ad.

w passive grants 5% of 20 so 4. this does not apply to his total ad anymore and is instead added as probably flat damage on execute passive.

the ratios for q are based on that 4 figure in the example. the extra threshold for the passive is also based on that 4.

with a goal that at maximum w ranks damage for q and e should be as per live, and not before.

does this sound totally unreasonable given the goals they have?

i was thinking to leave the total ad (100% ad) ratio on his ult alone, but i am unsure there.

doing it this way uses mechanics they have used for the same reasons elsewhere like the animation change to autos. and provides an additional balancing lever by adjusting the w passive value unique to him while, the impact on his execute passive via new ratio mechanic that also employs threshold health values, his q and e based on ratios unique to him via the w passive value over simply bonus ad, and forces him to skill less dummy spam oppressively early on, leaning to more skill or more midgame strength over super early and always thanks to the need for w ranks. that in turn promotes use of shadow more, and additionally cuts down on waveclear strength early as well due to reduced damage on q,e.

i see possible issues with clarity of design, but it would ultimately be no different in communication than health champs or those with things like mana or armor or mr ratios to learn overall. % from ranks in w based on bonus ad gives number. number is ratio on q,e, passive.

APrinnyDood1 votes

The problem I have with your number 2 and 3 is that it the skill that is being tested by this change is your math, not anything actually related to league. It just changes it so that there is a point where increasing your scaling damage by leveling W will increase your damage more than levels of your E or Q. Knowing that point is not an interesting skill to balance someone around, and it conflicts heavily with League's design. If I want a more effective E, I should be able to level E, instead of doing math to figure out if leveling W will give me a better E. That's just silly.

I mean, if you really want to reduce his tower pushing damage that bad, there are better solutions. Even just giving him a passive that says "Zed only does 25% damage to towers" would be a better option.

Champion Skin1 votes

Well why not I guess.. they did it to Thresh... Thresh only gains 1/4 value from attack speed.... (I don't really see why as Thresh doesn't really have much opportunity to buy attack speed anyways)

APrinnyDood1 votes

He doesn't only get 1/4 value from attack speed. His animation only speeds up by 1/4 as much as normal. He still gets just as many extra attacks per second from building attack speed items as anyone else with his base stats would.

You know how when you buy attack speed, your autoattack comes out faster? That's all they modified for Thresh, and he actually wasn't the first.

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