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So why are we giving Nocturne an AP ratio again?

Pierce The Veal··4 votes·1,783 views

Nocturne got a 0.5 AP ratio heal per unit hit with his passive on the PBE. Edit: they released him with a 0.15 AP ratio instead, which, nonetheless, is an AP ratio on a primarily AD assassin/melee carry for the sake of promoting guinsoos. I mean, I understand they're trying to make Nocturne want guinsoos, but he was already a warrior jungler and not a devourer jungler. He doesn't like AP or ON hits as he prefers to hit hard with his autos. For quite a while Nocturne players have been going max cdr with bucketloads of AD and a couple defensive items. Never in any of his strong builds did he focus on on hits or build any AP, or even build devourer for that matter.

So now why are we giving him a 0.5 AP ratio heal per unit hit with his passive? I'm seriously afraid that this will end up becoming an important part of his power budget, and Nocturne will end up having his original playstyles and builds nerfed as a result, despite being at a perfectly balanced place (50% winrate and 4% playrate). The only real issue is that Nocturne only mains only see around a 52%-54% winrate, but this is definitely not the way to fix that.

It actually makes me consider building nashors tooth on him, which is not a good sign. Just a Nashors or a guinsoos alone would give around 40 healing per unit hit, making Nocturne amazing at splitpushing and skirmishes while not keeping his identity as an assassin/melee carry.

Instead of increases build diversity, this change actually serves to limit build diversity in the long run, as either his passive heal will be good enough to go fully hybrid, or it won't be in which case nothing changes. Odds are it will be good enough to warrant at least a gunblade or something.

TL;DR: New AP ratio on Nocturne's passive could kill off standard Nocturne buildpaths and take up a huge portion of his buildpath, leading to a new required and meta build on him in the future, one that acts contrary to his nature as an AD assassin/melee carry.

41 Comments

lightdragoon882 votes

0.5? The patch notes says 0.15.

Also the patch notes states that they did this so that when you get AP from baron, blue buff, and other items that may have AP if you want to buy them, then the AP won't be 100% useless on him.

Pierce The Veal1 votes

{quoted}

0.5? The patch notes says 0.15.

Also the patch notes states that they did this so that when you get AP from baron, blue buff, and other items that may have AP if you want to buy them, then the AP won't be 100% useless on him.

Ah, it was 0.5 on the PBE, I wasn't aware that they had already released to live. Of course a 0.5 would be broken, but a 0.15 nonetheless is very strong since it's easy to hit many enemies with his passive.

Let's give Riven an AP ratio then, cause she honestly doesn't benefit from Baron's AP. Actually now that you mention it, neither does Darius or Talon or Zed. How about we give them all AP ratios as well?

No, the reason they did this is because they want him to consider building guinsoos, even when the previous devourer was completely outclassed by warrior on him. Even now Nocturne doesn't build any on hits, and continues to build warrior. In fact, they literally listed guinsoo's as their first reason for doing so: "We know what you’re thinking, but let’s explain. There are an abundance of things in the game that give ability power incidentally (Guinsoo's Rageblade, Baron Buff etc), making a number of champions sad when they can’t utilize it. Giving Nocturne an ever so slight ratio should make him feel better when these cases arise."

lightdragoon882 votes

So continue to build warrior and when you get some random AP from buffs and stuff then it not going to be wasted.

Pierce The Veal1 votes

{quoted}

So continue to build warrior and when you get some random AP from buffs and stuff then it not going to be wasted.

Or watch as Riot sees people still aren't Building Guinsoo's, and then buff his ap ratio until people have no choice but to build Guinsoo's, as not doing so wouldn't do you any favors.

lightdragoon881 votes

[slayer-pantheon-popcorn]

Pierce The Veal1 votes

{quoted}

[slayer-pantheon-popcorn]

:'(

Serpents Embrace2 votes

All they did was add something. How does that take any of his power budget or limit his build paths? If you were fine with your build before, nothing changed.

If you want to play around with things like Runic Echoes, Trinity Force, Guinsoo's or hell even Protobelt - more power to you.

You're putting way to much stock in to what changes this MIGHT bring. My guess is it won't change anything.

Pierce The Veal1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Serpents Embrace,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cAOhB1GA,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2016-05-18T11:31:00.443+0000)

All they did was add something. How does that take any of his power budget or limit his build paths? If you were fine with your build before, nothing changed.

If you want to play around with things like Runic Echoes, Trinity Force, Guinsoo's or hell even Protobelt - more power to you.

You're putting way to much stock in to what changes this MIGHT bring. My guess is it won't change anything.

With its original AP ratio of 0.5 on the pbe, it was definitely going to be a major change.

However, it was released with a 0.15 AP ratio, which means its either going to never be taken advantage of, or it will be barely good enough to make guinsoos worth buying. If, however, it's not good enough to have people get guinsoo's, Riot will probably buff it until it is. And them bam the new optimal build on Nocturne becomes on hit and he's longer an ad assassin/melee carry, or, at least, not balanced around being one.

Abyssphere1 votes

There's no reason at all to expect Riot to continue buffing the AP ratio on his heal until he buys Rageblade, though. They have outright said that they don't expect the AP ratios to change anything at all and that they didn't intend for them to affect build paths in any way. I guarantee you that AP ratio is never going to change unless he's reworked.

Pierce The Veal1 votes

{quoted}

There's no reason at all to expect Riot to continue buffing the AP ratio on his heal until he buys Rageblade, though. They have outright said that they don't expect the AP ratios to change anything at all and that they didn't intend for them to affect build paths in any way. I guarantee you that AP ratio is never going to change unless he's reworked.

I would love to see where they said that. As for whether it's going to change, I don't really care. Point is, there's literally no reason for it to be there in the first place.

runedara2 votes

They said they wanted them not to feel bad getting gunblade rageblade and hybrid items in general.

Pierce The Veal1 votes

{quoted}

They said they wanted them not to feel bad getting gunblade rageblade and hybrid items in general.

But that doesn't make any sense!

That's like putting AP scalings on Darius, Riven, and Talon so they don't feel bad for building a gunblade! Nocturne is a champion that's always liked armor pen, cdr, ad, and crit. Attack speed, he only purchased, if it was sold at bullshit efficiency, which means basically never.

Tell me, are you telling me a champion other than AP tryndamere likes both armor penetration and AP? Are you?

runedara1 votes

{quoted}

But that doesn't make any sense!

That's like putting AP scalings on Darius, Riven, and Talon so they don't feel bad for building a gunblade! Nocturne is a champion that's always liked armor pen, cdr, ad, and crit. Attack speed, he only purchased, if it was sold at bullshit efficiency, which means basically never.

Tell me, are you telling me a champion other than AP tryndamere likes both armor penetration and AP? Are you?

Only one that really makes sense to me is shyvana. She already had some good ap ratios on her.

Pierce The Veal1 votes

{quoted}

Only one that really makes sense to me is shyvana. She already had some good ap ratios on her.

Yeah that made sense to me. She's also pretty hybrid in her damage, so it just sort of clicked that she could use ap. Nocturne? Not so much.

Actin1 votes

He's a wizard

Paroe1 votes

Because riot wants to cement "on hit" champions as a class. By making the focus of them "on hit" instead of "hybrid" you create an easily balancable champion in the hybrid spirit rather than a teetering over the edge true hybrid like jax or akali.

... in short words its so he can use guinsoos more effectively.

Pierce The Veal1 votes

{quoted}

Because riot wants to cement "on hit" champions as a class. By making the focus of them "on hit" instead of "hybrid" you create an easily balancable champion in the hybrid spirit rather than a teetering over the edge true hybrid like jax or akali.

... in short words its so he can use guinsoos more effectively.

It's honestly like giving, say, Annie AD ratios on all her abilities so that she can use hextech gunblade better.

In short, it's utter stupidity.

leafeon981 votes

Maybe more people are playing nocturne with an ap/ad build. I know when i first started playing nocturne recommend build was devourer I guess because of the increased attack speed.

Pierce The Veal1 votes

{quoted}

Maybe more people are playing nocturne with an ap/ad build. I know when i first started playing nocturne recommend build was devourer I guess because of the increased attack speed.

Recommended, but literally eveyone who had more than 5 games on him preferred warrior.

{quoted}

This is silly, Nocturne is better as a warrior jg than a devourer one if you ask me. This whole giving AP ratios to entice people into using rageblade is silly. What's next, giving Vayne AP ratios?

Exactly! It's silly, and it will also completely change how Nocturne works and his power budgeting if it works.

Paroe1 votes

{quoted}

Recommended, but literally eveyone who had more than 5 games on him preferred warrior.

Exactly! It's silly, and it will also completely change how Nocturne works and his power budgeting if it works.

Anyone who played nocturne period played him as a bruiser. Hydra and randys omen were once his core.

Pierce The Veal1 votes

{quoted}

Anyone who played nocturne period played him as a bruiser. Hydra and randys omen were once his core.

Well, there were the occasional assassin Nocturne's, but that literally only meant replacing the last two defensive items with offensive items when really ahead.

But nonetheless, Nocturne has never done well with on hit.

LadyRenly1 votes

This is silly, Nocturne is better as a warrior jg than a devourer one if you ask me. This whole giving AP ratios to entice people into using rageblade is silly. What's next, giving Vayne AP ratios?

Miror B1 votes

{quoted}

This is silly, Nocturne is better as a warrior jg than a devourer one if you ask me. This whole giving AP ratios to entice people into using rageblade is silly. What's next, giving Vayne AP ratios?

To be fair, they gave shyv it as well. I'm also worried about this whole shift. Giving AP ratios to ex-devourer users is only going to see people want AP nerfed, which in turn will render much of their "mid-season mage update" even more useless than it already has been.

Pierce The Veal1 votes

{quoted}

To be fair, they gave shyv it as well. I'm also worried about this whole shift. Giving AP ratios to ex-devourer users is only going to see people want AP nerfed, which in turn will render much of their "mid-season mage update" even more useless than it already has been.

I mean, it's not even that. Rather than nerfing AP, Riot's more likely to nerf the other aspects of the champions' kit to make it work. And the worst part of it is Riot themselves confirmed that these ap ratios will make it to live.

Miror B1 votes

{quoted}

I mean, it's not even that. Rather than nerfing AP, Riot's more likely to nerf the other aspects of the champions' kit to make it work. And the worst part of it is Riot themselves confirmed that these ap ratios will make it to live.

It also isn't the first time they've done this. Look at every significant character change in the past year, and the majority of them have consisted of "add ___ to a character, ___ becomes too overpowered, nerf a different part of character's kit to compensate, finally nerf ___ after rendering the rest of the kit weak". It happened to malz recently, it happened to tahm when his stickiness became too much of a burden, and it just recently happened to taric with his whole stun thing. I'm more worried that they'll take this "adding AP ratios to devourer users" as "AP ratios on these guys is OP, so let's nerf everything with AP so they can't abuse it as much". It sounds ludicrous, but knowing riot they'll find a weird way to justify it that only makes sense to them.

Pierce The Veal1 votes

{quoted}

It also isn't the first time they've done this. Look at every significant character change in the past year, and the majority of them have consisted of "add ___ to a character, ___ becomes too overpowered, nerf a different part of character's kit to compensate, finally nerf ___ after rendering the rest of the kit weak". It happened to malz recently, it happened to tahm when his stickiness became too much of a burden, and it just recently happened to taric with his whole stun thing. I'm more worried that they'll take this "adding AP ratios to devourer users" as "AP ratios on these guys is OP, so let's nerf everything with AP so they can't abuse it as much". It sounds ludicrous, but knowing riot they'll find a weird way to justify it that only makes sense to them.

I highly doubt they'll do that. They're more likely to just nerf the actual non ap part of these champions' kits. But then again, Riot might just nerf Guinsoo's, hextech gunblade, and nashors.

brisker61 votes

Fuck. This makes me sad.

Nocturne is my most played champ and i am 24 and 6 with him in ranked. I basically always go this build item 1400 item 3158 item 3748 item 3071 item 3022 and maybe a tank item or two if i want to get rid of the frozen mallet. He doesnt do good with on hit.

I don't think he is OP or UP at the moment, I think he is actually about as balanced as ya get.

Don't fix it if it aint broken Riot.

Pierce The Veal1 votes

{quoted}

Fuck. This makes me sad.

Nocturne is my most played champ and i am 24 and 6 with him in ranked. I basically always go this build item 1400 item 3158 item 3748 item 3071 item 3022 and maybe a tank item or two if i want to get rid of the frozen mallet. He doesnt do good with on hit.

I don't think he is OP or UP at the moment, I think he is actually about as balanced as ya get.

Don't fix it if it aint broken Riot.

EXACTLY THIS. Nocturne doesn't do well at all with on hit, and scales too well with AD. Riot's intention is to turn him into an on hit champion, and simply put, there are many other champions, like Warwick, who use on hit effects, and Nocturne isn't one of them.

Serpents Embrace1 votes

Their stated intention is to make AP sources less useless on Nocturne. That's not necessarily items. Blue buff and Baron give flat AP bonuses. Even keeping with your AD tank build, you're probably going to end up with AP for some of the game. This just gives you a little extra health while jungling with Blue, or in team fights after taking Baron.

Settle.

Pierce The Veal1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Serpents Embrace,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cAOhB1GA,comment-id=000500000000,timestamp=2016-05-18T11:33:16.856+0000)

Their stated intention is to make AP sources less useless on Nocturne. That's not necessarily items. Blue buff and Baron give flat AP bonuses. Even keeping with your AD tank build, you're probably going to end up with AP for some of the game. This just gives you a little extra health while jungling with Blue, or in team fights after taking Baron.

Settle.

Blue buff doesn't give you flat ap, it increases your ap by 15%. So if you get baron (40 AP) and blue buff, you will have 46 ap, netting you a bonus 7 (actually 6.9) healing per unit hit. That's such a useless buff that it's not worth putting in. Unless, drumroll, they want you to build Guinsoos.

Serpents Embrace1 votes

You're right, for some reason I thought blue was also flat AP. However, it seems like you're hellbent on this idea that they want you to do something when it seems all they did was present it as an option. I don't think there's a dev behind the curtain steepling their fingers and mutters "yesss, now they will have to build on-hit Nocturne".

Pierce The Veal1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Serpents Embrace,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cAOhB1GA,comment-id=00050000000000000000,timestamp=2016-05-18T19:25:03.952+0000)

You're right, for some reason I thought blue was also flat AP. However, it seems like you're hellbent on this idea that they want you to do something when it seems all they did was present it as an option. I don't think there's a dev behind the curtain steepling their fingers and mutters "yesss, now they will have to build on-hit Nocturne".

Ok, let me go back to my example. Does it make sense to give Annie ad ratios so that "she has the option" to build hextech gunblade? Regardless of whether it would break her or not, it doesn't make any sense.

All that this change accomplishes with Nocturne is encouraging him to build something that goes contrary to his nature and playstyle. And I'm not saying you should think there is a dev back there saying that, I'm saying that regardless of whether you think that or not, there are evidently some devs that want Nocturne to build guinsoo's, and, thereby, some devs that think he is an on hit champion.

And even if this change does absolutely nothing in the end, and Riot doesn't decide to push harder to make people consider guinsoo's, then in the end this change is still bad, because it takes up his power budget in case in the future he actually needs changes, which at the moment many agree he doesn't.

Serpents Embrace1 votes

That example is awful and you know it. Let's use a better one, shall we? How about Lee Sin? Like Nocturne (and unlike Annie) he is somewhere between Assassin and Bruiser, he often takes the position of jungler. And he has BOTH AP and AD scaling.

Hmmm. :\ I don't see a lot of AP heavy Lee Sin builds. If anything, it's usually ignored and just accepted as a small bonus for items that have incidental AP or what he gets from buffs.

And you've focused intently on Guinsoo's for this whole thing. There are other items that could give AP. Trinity Force is a big one, especially since it will soon be getting a change that seems favorable for champions like Nocture. Nocturne could now consider pretty much any Enchantment he wanted for his jungle item but, as you say, it's unlikely he'll abandon what works in favor of AP like Runic Echoes.

And finally, it's not taking up his power budget because they didn't take anything away from him to implement it. If they do, then YES, that's a valid complaint. But currently it's unfounded.

Pierce The Veal1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Serpents Embrace,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cAOhB1GA,comment-id=0005000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-05-19T22:21:43.807+0000)

That example is awful and you know it. Let's use a better one, shall we? How about Lee Sin? Like Nocturne (and unlike Annie) he is somewhere between Assassin and Bruiser, he often takes the position of jungler. And he has BOTH AP and AD scaling.

Hmmm. :\ I don't see a lot of AP heavy Lee Sin builds. If anything, it's usually ignored and just accepted as a small bonus for items that have incidental AP or what he gets from buffs.

And you've focused intently on Guinsoo's for this whole thing. There are other items that could give AP. Trinity Force is a big one, especially since it will soon be getting a change that seems favorable for champions like Nocture. Nocturne could now consider pretty much any Enchantment he wanted for his jungle item but, as you say, it's unlikely he'll abandon what works in favor of AP like Runic Echoes.

And finally, it's not taking up his power budget because they didn't take anything away from him to implement it. If they do, then YES, that's a valid complaint. But currently it's unfounded.

Lee Sin is a horrible example as his AD scalings are already ridiculous. Adding ap scalings would be stupid, oh wait, that's exactly what the fuck I was saying about Nocturne in the first place.

The fucking point is you're adding AP scalings to a champion who doesn't fucking want AP. It's the same thing as adding AD scalings to a champion thay doesn't want AD. It's unwarranted, and a pointless change/buff at the very least.

Nocturne however gets some pretty decent healing off of that buff. But there was no reason for it in the first place.

If you really think it was a good idea, then, ok, I think Riot should go and add AP scaling to all AD champions because Baron buff's AP is useless on many of them, and then go and add AD scalings to every AP champion because they don't make use of the AD on baron buff.

It's a fucking stupid idea and you know it. You're just arguing for the sake of arguing.

Serpents Embrace1 votes

No? All I did was tell you to calm down over this pointless change. You're the one pushing an argument. You're making bad examples like comparing Nocturne to Annie and getting upset over something hasn't and probably won't affect Nocturne in any way.

You also clearly have little concept on what "power budget" means if you think this is taking it all up.

Settle.

Pierce The Veal1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Serpents Embrace,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cAOhB1GA,comment-id=000500000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-05-20T02:18:57.984+0000)

No? All I did was tell you to calm down over this pointless change. You're the one pushing an argument. You're making bad examples like comparing Nocturne to Annie and getting upset over something hasn't and probably won't affect Nocturne in any way.

You also clearly have little concept on what "power budget" means if you think this is taking it all up.

Settle.

Never in this thread did I compare Nocturne to Annie. What I said is giving Nocturne that AP ratio is like giving Annie an AD ratio.

I compared the actions of giving ratios of stats not commonly used on a champion.

Anyway, I like how you just tried to dodge the bullet. Lol. I still expect you to explain to me how giving every AP champion AD ratios because of the AD on baron nashors and vice versa would be good.

As for being calm? I actually am. I'm not freaking out or anything. I am, however, iffed that people won't try to see my point of view without resorting to ad hominem.

Whatever, it was my mistake for trying to hold a legitimite conversation with people from the boards.

Serpents Embrace1 votes

{quoted}

Ok, let me go back to my example. Does it make sense to give Annie ad ratios so that "she has the option" to build hextech gunblade? Regardless of whether it would break her or not, it doesn't make any sense.

Pierce The Veal1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Serpents Embrace,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cAOhB1GA,comment-id=00050000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-05-20T03:14:32.810+0000)

Why are you giving me evidence?

That's lterally what I said that I said, which isn't what you said that I said, that said, nice try.

Giving AD ratios to an AP champion (e.g. Annie) to encourage them to build a hybrid item IS, in fact comparable to giving AP ratios to an AD champion (namely Nocturne) to encourage them to build a hybrid item.

TL;DR: reading skills might be required to properly understand a post. You might have to think a little too.

ProfDrDeath2 votes

Actually, with your build, the buff will have absolutely 0 effect for you, unless you get Baron.

These small added AP ratios are mostly there to make getting these effects or building AP-containing items (maybe current, maybe future ones) less superfluous. Maybe they will release, some time in the future, an item that works really well for Nocturne due to a desirable active, but that has AP as a component.

A 0.15 AP ratio will not make Nocturne suddenly go Guinsoo's, especially since the remainder of his kit does not actually work too well with it - he has only his passive for an on-hit effect, and that has a long cooldown even with Phantom Hit.

Shyvana is, imo, a different story. For her, Guinsoo's can be a decent choice, due to her ease of stacking it and her myriad of on-hit effects (fun fact, every single one of her basic skills has a form of on-hit). Another possibility is that it gives Shyvana a more viable option in Hextech Gunblade and its Omnivamp. Remember, all the way back in S2, Shyvana was one of the champions to break the original Lord van Damm's Pillager (the one with Spellvamp and building from Brutalizer/Heart of Gold) - her resistance steroids and generally high damage output make it a good form of sustain.

Abyssphere1 votes

Jesus Christ get a grip. If you seriously think that Rageblade is still trash on him after this buff then just don't build it - Riot does not give a fuck. If Riot seriously wanted Nocturne to be building AP they'd be going a lot more hard on it than this. A 15% AP ratio heal every once in a while is not enough to make a champion even consider going near AP if the item wasn't already arguable on them before and given Nocturne doesn't currently like Nashor's, he's not suddenly going to.

Just continue as you are and be happy the buff happened every time you get Baron and blue buff (maybe you have the scaling AP and AD mastery who knows) or accidentally purchase a blue elixir/take the wrong runes. Nothing is going to change.

The "It takes up his power budget!" stuff is complete nonsense too. The AP ratio on his heal has absolutely no value and that means it takes up... none of his power budget. If Nocturne is randomly weak in the future there would be literally zero chance of Riot thinking "but the AP ratio on his passive!" and deciding against buffing him as a result. It's even less a part of his power budget than the AP ratio on his E and that's hardly worth considering as is.

Pierce The Veal1 votes

{quoted}

Jesus Christ get a grip. If you seriously think that Rageblade is still trash on him after this buff then just don't build it - Riot does not give a fuck. If Riot seriously wanted Nocturne to be building AP they'd be going a lot more hard on it than this. A 15% AP ratio heal every once in a while is not enough to make a champion even consider going near AP if the item wasn't already arguable on them before and given Nocturne doesn't currently like Nashor's, he's not suddenly going to.

Just continue as you are and be happy the buff happened every time you get Baron and blue buff (maybe you have the scaling AP and AD mastery who knows) or accidentally purchase a blue elixir/take the wrong runes. Nothing is going to change.

The "It takes up his power budget!" stuff is complete nonsense too. The AP ratio on his heal has absolutely no value and that means it takes up... none of his power budget. If Nocturne is randomly weak in the future there would be literally zero chance of Riot thinking "but the AP ratio on his passive!" and deciding against buffing him as a result. It's even less a part of his power budget than the AP ratio on his E and that's hardly worth considering as is.

Sigh. The buff does almost nothing.

They wanted to it to be a 0.5 AP ratio back on the pbe. As for being happy about recieving 6 more health per target hit with my passive by the time I can get a baron buff, that's just ridiculous. Let me be honest here, I'm not freaking out, I'm incredulous at what Riot seems to think is a good idea. You seem to be freaking out more than I am.

But if there's one thing I can agree with you about, it's that >"Riot does not give a fuck."

Also, surprise, you only have to reply once to me to reveal that you have the intention to be a jerk, you don't have to push yourself to reply more than once. The bump is duly appreciated, but please help yourself out if you don't have anything productive to say besides "Jesus Christ get a grip."

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