I feel that some changes to how shielding works needs to come soon after these Marksmen changes.

Electro522·May 1, 2018·49 votes·13,790 views

I'm an ADC main, and everything I read on the marksmen changes seem pretty good so far. However, on Reddit, there was one comment line talking about how assassins may have more time to actually kill their target before being bursted down by the ADC (around 1 to 2 seconds.......which is a VERY long time in League). However, that line ended with a comment saying "God Bless Lulu."

And that made me realize.....all these changes not only make assassins better, but also, in turn, make shielding supports better. If these changes go through......not much may change except for which support is taken. We may very well not fall into the World's Ardent meta again, but the strong scaling ADCs we have today may still stick around due to having a "get-out-of-jail-free-card" in their back pocket.

Take Janna for example. All of these changes could be indirect buffs for her, since she has notoriously been a "mid to late game support". Her laning sucks.....ALOT, but once you start getting into teamfights is where she truly starts to shine. According to the changes, ADCs will "turn on" later in the game.......right where Janna wants to be. Pair her with a Twitch or Tristana, and, well......we're right back to where we are now, just slightly later in the game.

Just my 2 cents......I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

49 Comments

Athenes LuluMay 1, 201810 votes

I thought that's been a problem that people have overlooked throughout the years, especially since Riot basically gave them shield/heal stats for almost free...

I'm just waiting for that to be nerfed/changed so enchanters can have some skill expression again. Timing and using it on the right target should feel rewarding, autobinding to the same teammate 24/7 does not.

BoltonatorMay 1, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Cancerous Lulu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=c5OfQJNX,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-05-01T00:56:25.223+0000)

I thought that's been a problem that people have overlooked throughout the years, especially since Riot basically gave them shield/heal stats for almost free...

I'm just waiting for that to be nerfed/changed so enchanters can have some skill expression again. Timing and using it on the right target should feel rewarding, autobinding to the same teammate 24/7 does not.

Eh...I feel like if I dont shield at the right time the enemy team will just back off and wait for it to fall off. There is a matter of timing to deal with and anticipation as to when the enemy team might engage but, aside from that, the pressure of shielding is much less late game than it is early game, where you can’t cast a shield nearly as often and need to save it to safeguard your adc from early lane poke.

Athenes LuluMay 1, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Eh...I feel like if I dont shield at the right time the enemy team will just back off and wait for it to fall off. There is a matter of timing to deal with and anticipation as to when the enemy team might engage but, aside from that, the pressure of shielding is much less late game than it is early game, where you can’t cast a shield nearly as often and need to save it to safeguard your adc from early lane poke.

Except with how long shields last (due to being outdated in comparison to how much quicker fights are nowadays), their cooldowns, and how massively strong they are, there should be no downtime unless you somehow couldn't get 45% CDR. Shorter fights and longer shields give players smaller windows to make mistakes, meaning it is more intuitive to just bind a shield to a designated ally, especially topped with how much power Ardent Censer still gives.

In the cases of laning, that's where it becomes somewhat more understandable, but trading/burst are still much shorter compared to before. Additionally, with items and runes that encourage players and allies to save themselves so they can stay safer (FF and ancient coin), it only encourages enchanters (namely Lulu) to rather just shield instead of actively poking and engaging with the enemy.

Teridax68May 1, 201811 votes

Personally, I feel the issue with the support changes over recent times is that they've focused exclusively on increasing their defenses, to the detriment of everything else. As a Lulu main, you likely know far better than I do that she's actually a really versatile champion with a ton of offensive effects (in fact, her combination of offense and utility is what allowed her to solo lane), yet since the introduction of the healing/shielding stat she's been relegated to the same spot as Janna, where she exists purely to save the marksman's life, shut down incoming assassins and divers, and otherwise do little else. Moreover, Lulu as a champion has immense potential to synergize with melee allies, due to her bonus health/size/slow aura on ult and increased movement speed buff on W, but her ult has ended up being treated as a pure heal, whereas her W was changed by Riot themselves to synergize primarily with marksmen.

Because of this, while I agree shields and heals need to be pared down significantly overall, I think enchanters should also have their offensive playmaking abilities buffed and valued more in compensation. Ideally, "offensive playmaking" should not necessarily mean more damage, as was the case with Janna's horrendous mini-rework, but should involve the ability to enhance the offensive potential of allies, as well as set targets up with CC. Nami is a popular champion precisely because she has such a great balance between her capabilities for both offensive and defensive plays, and I think even the most defensive of supports could opt into this as well. Having support items that encouraged offensive plays, namely by rewarding offensive power and synergizing with setups, instead of the current selection that offers almost exclusively defensive effects like heals and shields, could go a long way towards allowing enchanters to thrive, without having to exist purely as a provider of extra health bars and items for only one champion on their whole team.

ChaddyFantomeMay 2, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Personally, I feel the issue with the support changes over recent times is that they've focused exclusively on increasing their defenses, to the detriment of everything else.

Eh, idk if i agree with that. generally Enchanters are overpowered is specifically WHEN they become to offensively efficient. Janna's reign recently in particular was due to Summon Aery giving her a lot of free poke damage for example.

As a Lulu main, you likely know far better than I do that she's actually a really versatile champion with a ton of offensive effects (in fact, her combination of offense and utility is what allowed her to solo lane), yet since the introduction of the healing/shielding stat she's been relegated to the same spot as Janna, where she exists purely to save the marksman's life, shut down incoming assassins and divers, and otherwise do little else.

That's not true at all. She was relegated to this ever since they nerfed her out of solo lanes. The introduction of the stat simply allowed her to be viable as an actual support.

Prior to the solo lane Lulu fiasco, Lulu primarily was Poke oriented with her Q into 1 point wonder oblivion This was nerfed because it was her most powerful sololane tool.

Moreover, Lulu as a champion has immense potential to synergize with melee allies, due to her bonus health/size/slow aura on ult and increased movement speed buff on W, but her ult has ended up being treated as a pure heal, whereas her W was changed by Riot themselves to synergize primarily with marksmen.

Agreed. this greatly pisses me off too. It is so much more interesting speed boosting my Udyr or Shyvana or Ulting my Malphite or Nautilus than using it as as just a "save the ADC button".

The upcoming changes to ADC should help with that tho. looking forward to it.

Because of this, while I agree shields and heals need to be pared down significantly overall, I think enchanters should also have their offensive playmaking abilities buffed and valued more in compensation.

Assuming you are talkign about damage and poke, I disagree. If you do that, you risk making them to generalist, and by extension to generally powerful. Right now, you CAN opt into making Enchanters damage threats but it comes at the cost of their defensive options. And this is largely why these items were introduced in the first place. Before this, after the Season 4 changes to Supports, enchanters were strictly better as solo laners than supports, because they simply scaled better off AP, a stat they couldn't afford to actually obtain as a support, especially back then.

Then they were repeatedly nerfed outta solo lanes.

While I am not opposed to Enchanters having more damaging power inherently, i don't really think it is healthy for the game as opposed to the paradigm we have now where you focus on one or the other, because otherwise you just get a champion with all the boons at no cost.

Ideally, "offensive playmaking" should not necessarily mean more damage, as was the case with Janna's horrendous mini-rework, but should involve the ability to enhance the offensive potential of allies, as well as set targets up with CC.

Oh? Then i take back my previous statements. It seems i didn't get what you meant.

I generally agree for the MOST part, tho this is rather ambiguous. "Offensive CC" what do you mean by that? Because generally, all types of CC can be used both offensively and defensively.

Perhaps you mean pick potential?

Nami is a popular champion precisely because she has such a great balance between her capabilities for both offensive and defensive plays, and I think even the most defensive of supports could opt into this as well. Having support items that encouraged offensive plays, namely by rewarding offensive power and synergizing with setups, instead of the current selection that offers almost exclusively defensive effects like heals and shields, could go a long way towards allowing enchanters to thrive, without having to exist purely as a provider of extra health bars and items for only one champion on their whole team.

Eh, this isn't really true.

item 3504 item 3905 item 2065 item 3174 all encourage and reward offensive play and playmaking.

That said, i DO agree with your general premise, and it largely aligns with ideas i had for minor reworks for both janna and Lulu.

Teridax68May 2, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Oh? Then i take back my previous statements. It seems i didn't get what you meant.

This particular sentence leads me to think you simply replied to my post phrase-by-phrase, gave immediate, reactive answers to each one out of context, then didn't go back to your previous points after said context completely changed their significance. The first half of your reply assumes I want to give supports more damage, whereupon you completely change your tune after reading the part where I mentioned I specifically didn't want that to happen (and so because I knew that the first reaction many people would have was that I was advocating for more damage). As such, it is difficult for me to reply to this comment, because I'm not quite sure if what I'm quoting still corresponds to your latest opinion. Here goes anyway:

{quoted}

Eh, idk if i agree with that. generally Enchanters are overpowered is specifically WHEN they become to offensively efficient. Janna's reign recently in particular was due to Summon Aery giving her a lot of free poke damage for example.

Janna's reign existed long before Runes Reforged. Her win and play rates have been consistently very high for the near-totality of League's entire run, and so because she excels so much at providing defenses. Summon Aery gave too much poke to certain champions, many of them non-supports, but it is not this kind of offensive power that has made enchanters overpowered. Moreover, as mentioned above, I am not advocating for more damage, and more generally, offense does not equate to damage in every case.

{quoted}

That's not true at all. She was relegated to this ever since they nerfed her out of solo lanes. The introduction of the stat simply allowed her to be viable as an actual support.

Literally none of this contradicts my point about Lulu being popular in solo lanes due to her mix of offense and defense, and at no point did I say that the introduction of the healing/shielding stat is what pushed her out of there. Prior to the stat's creation, support Lulu was herself infamous for being a rather aggressive support with good poke and trading power, as you yourself mentioned. Her nerfs certainly toned down her rewards for aggression, but it is the extreme focus on defenses brought about by the support item changes that pushed her, along with every other enchanter, into a far more defensive role overall.

{quoted}

Assuming you are talkign about damage and poke, I disagree. If you do that, you risk making them to generalist, and by extension to generally powerful.

So I know that you realized soon after that this is not what I was actually talking about, but I do think it's worth noting that I think giving supports more damage is a valid option in certain very specific cases. Karma, for example, deserves to have a much better balance between her mage and support sides, as currently she tends to deal below-average damage compared to other supports. Lulu I think already has the tools to be an offensive threat purely on her own, and I'd personally support enabling that in a healthy manner, which may likely involve changes to her kit to make her W less frustrating to play against, and hopefully allow her to solo lane once more.

{quoted}

I generally agree for the MOST part, tho this is rather ambiguous. "Offensive CC" what do you mean by that? Because generally, all types of CC can be used both offensively and defensively.

It is indeed usually difficult to discern the meaning of a point when one stops right in the middle of it. In the very excerpt you have quoted, I literally mentioned "the ability to enhance the offensive potential of allies, as well as set targets up with CC" as examples of offensive power. A steroid that gives movement speed when moving towards enemies, for example, is a form of offensive utility. I agree that most crowd control can be used both offensively and defensively (though even then, that differs from healing and shielding), but one can still find plenty of ways to bias that CC towards offense: for example, Ivern's root is more offensive because it gives champions a free dash to the rooted target, and Leona's CC tends to be more offensive because it marks targets for bonus damage. By contrast, Janna's CC tends to be more defensive, because her displacement originates from her location, and tends to be more difficult to dodge for opponents moving directly towards her or a nearby ally, while only much more rarely being good at making picks. In view of this, I'd support making crowd control on some supports more offensively-oriented via these kinds of effects, or by giving them items that would similarly enable better offense using this kind of utility or CC (for example, an item that caused your hard CC to temporarily reduce the target's resists).

{quoted}

all encourage and reward offensive play and playmaking.

Ardent is an item that primarily operates through heals and shields, while also boosting them, so even though its effects are offensive, it still contributes to the excessive amount of healing and shielding we have now, even without the ridiculous sustain it used to have. Similarly, Athene's provides healing. Athenes, Twin Shadows and Shurelya's are also all far less popular than the current Ardent + Redemption + Locket combo, a combo picked by all enchanters in spite of Locket's frequent changes to make it less attractive to squishier users. For sure, we have some offensive support items, or at least some support items that can be used offensively, but currently the most prominent and popular support items contribute to a very protection-oriented build. The fact that it's picked even on supports intended to be more offensive is evidence enough that that kind of build is far too strong, or at least that builds with more offensive utility aren't nearly as popular by comparison. This is what needs to change.

ChaddyFantomeMay 3, 20181 votes

{quoted} This particular sentence leads me to think you simply replied to my post phrase-by-phrase, gave immediate, reactive answers to each one out of context, then didn't go back to your previous points after said context completely changed their significance. The first half of your reply assumes I want to give supports more damage, whereupon you completely change your tune after reading the part where I mentioned I specifically didn't want that to happen (and so because I knew that the first reaction many people would have was that I was advocating for more damage). As such, it is difficult for me to reply to this comment, because I'm not quite sure if what I'm quoting still corresponds to your latest opinion. Here goes anyway:

Yea, I was working off of my phone. I didn't actually see the last part until after i started typing.

Janna's reign existed long before Runes Reforged. Her win and play rates have been consistently very high for the near-totality of League's entire run, and so because she excels so much at providing defenses. Summon Aery gave too much poke to certain champions, many of them non-supports, but it is not this kind of offensive power that has made enchanters overpowered. Moreover, as mentioned above, I am not advocating for more damage, and more generally, offense does not equate to damage in every case.

Oh I am aware Janna has always been historically a powerhouse. My point was more around her recent reign specifically. While janna has always been a hot button issue, it has never been to quite the level it is now, nor stimulated the level of contempt and scrutiny.

I apoligize for the lack of clarity.

Literally none of this contradicts my point about Lulu being popular in solo lanes due to her mix of offense and defense, and at no point did I say that the introduction of the healing/shielding stat is what pushed her out of there. Prior to the stat's creation, support Lulu was herself infamous for being a rather aggressive support with good poke and trading power, as you yourself mentioned. Her nerfs certainly toned down her rewards for aggression, but it is the extreme focus on defenses brought about by the support item changes that pushed her, along with every other enchanter, into a far more defensive role overall.

Not outside fo lane phase tho. By and large she retained the very same defensive oriented playstyle she has now. She just wasn't all that adequate.

So I know that you realized soon after that this is not what I was actually talking about, but I do think it's worth noting that I think giving supports more damage is a valid option in certain very specific cases. Karma, for example, deserves to have a much better balance between her mage and support sides, as currently she tends to deal below-average damage compared to other supports. Lulu I think already has the tools to be an offensive threat purely on her own, and I'd personally support enabling that in a healthy manner, which may likely involve changes to her kit to make her W less frustrating to play against, and hopefully allow her to solo lane once more.

Imho, i just wanna see a karma revert, but that's a story for another time.

As for changing lulu, i LARGELY disagree. Lulu doesn't really HAVE any offensive utility outside of buffing/enabling her allies with the ability to better perform offensively, which i personally don't have a problem with, but i digress.

As i mentioned before, Lulu used to be more poke oriented, but that was largely just in lane phase. After that, she was largely considered an inferior Janna actually. I don't think that really ever was completely true tho, especially nowadays.

As for Solo Lane Lulu, changing her W isn't what is gonna make or break her solo lane. not even by a long shot. Her E being Point and Click largely is, as it provides undodgeable poke and a setup for her Q that while not truly uninteractive (there is a mind game involved with dodging it via your character movement) is still rather one sides.

Personally, I don't find bringing Solo lane Lulu back to be of any remote priority to begin with. I still have nightmares of the never ending stream of nerfs to her after I started spamming that back in late Season3 and throughout season 4.... I don't really think it is worth changing her just to do, but i digress.

"Offensive CC" what do you mean by that? Because generally, all types of CC can be used both offensively and defensively.

It is indeed usually difficult to discern the meaning of a point when one stops right in the middle of it. In the very excerpt you have quoted, I literally mentioned "the ability to enhance the offensive potential of allies, as well as set targets up with CC" as examples of offensive power. A steroid that gives movement speed when moving towards enemies, for example, is a form of offensive utility. I agree that most crowd control can be used both offensively and defensively (though even then, that differs from healing and shielding), but one can still find plenty of ways to bias that CC towards offense: for example, Ivern's root is more offensive because it gives champions a free dash to the rooted target.

and Leona's CC tends to be more offensive because it marks targets for bonus damage.

Eh, that's not a good example. The damage it provides is equally useful in defensive scenarios as offensive ones, tho this is largely a moot point. Leona is an engage tank. The only time she is played defensively is when playing offensively stops working, lol.

By contrast, Janna's CC tends to be more defensive, because her displacement originates from her location, and tends to be more difficult to dodge for opponents moving directly towards her or a nearby ally, while only much more rarely being good at making picks.

I mean, this can be just as much said for Thresh, really. His E and hook are much harder to dodge at point black and chaining off one another than when simply free aiming them. His Q is still primarily used as a pick took tho, because the rest of his kit complements using it that way.

In view of this, I'd support making crowd control on some supports more offensively-oriented via these kinds of effects, or by giving them items that would similarly enable better offense using this kind of utility or CC (for example, an item that caused your hard CC to temporarily reduce the target's resists).

Again, while i like the idea on paper, i do think this is rather dangerous way of looking and is largely dependant on what exactly we are providing, especially when it comes to itemisation.

Putting anything CC oriented on items with the express purpose of making them better pick tools is extremely dangerous, as it could create an innumerable amount of abuse and fringe cases, especially on non-intended users.

Even just in terms of general changes to these champions, it is dangerous. I wouldn't be too keen on essentially making it so enchanters can all be more like morganna with her 3 second Q as it were. that is a whole other can frustrating by itself.

Whatsmore is i feel the delineation between Enchanters and Catchers becomes blurred as a result.

Ardent is an item that primarily operates through heals and shields, while also boosting them, so even though its effects are offensive, it still contributes to the excessive amount of healing and shielding we have now, even without the ridiculous sustain it used to have.

I mean, sure, but it is still biased in favor of offense no? Similar to your previous examples? I don't see how it operating through said means invalidates that.

Similarly, Athene's provides healing.

But it only provides said healing by means of reward for offensive play. Athenes also provides AP for Mana-regen, which increases the potency of enchanters Utility on their spells.

Athenes, Twin Shadows and Shurelya's are also all far less popular than the current Ardent + Redemption + Locket combo, a combo picked by all enchanters in spite of Locket's frequent changes to make it less attractive to squishier users.

Locket+Redemption combo is actually not all that common anymore, nor is it all that potent on Enchanters specifically. Ive had more success with it on Tankier supports who actually build HP myself.

The reason it still gets use is because the item itself is just to reliable stat check and always has been. To my knowledge, Riot was playing with Changes to rework the item all together, so i wouldn't preoccupy myself with the item too much.

In any case, Athenes is honestly very underrated imho. As for Twin Shadows, while ive seen some fringe purchase cases, it doesn't get bought for the same reason i said it wouldnt when Riot thought bringing it back would be a good compromise for removing FQC. It just doesn't complement these champion's skill set. Instead, it offers situational isolated power purley on the active, as opposed to something like Shurelias which is has more general usefulness. when ti was FQC, it was an optional upgrade for an item you were already gonna get, which incentivised actually getting it.

But some people insisted I was wrong so i brought it up anyway.

For sure, we have some offensive support items, or at least some support items that can be used offensively, but currently the most prominent and popular support items contribute to a very protection-oriented build.

But here is the thing. Ultimately, Enchanters and Wardens as supports ARE primarily intended to be protection oriented in general. The reason protection oriented items have historically, (yes, historically, even before Forbidden idol items) been the most effective on them is because these items actually help these champions do what they are trying to do primarily.

While I don't think adding additional options in the spirit of giving these champions more build options, I don't think steering them away from performing their primary function is exactly what the intent should be.

(cont)

ChaddyFantomeMay 3, 20181 votes

The fact that it's picked even on supports intended to be more offensive is evidence enough that that kind of build is far too strong, or at least that builds with more offensive utility aren't nearly as popular by comparison. This is what needs to change.

Its again, largely because there aren't really any good options for your kind of idea that actually synergises with the champions kits. I looked up Bard, and apparently Twin Shadows is popular on him, which makes sense with his roam focused playstyle and the fact he benefits from the MS.

It also isn't something that is easy to come up with without it being abused by others.

At one point I had come up with an alternative item to Ardent Censor (Shares the same unique passive name) that instead allowed the users slowing effects to stack (like before the Slow change), so getting something like Rylai's would actually be an attractive option. but people shot the idea down saying it would be to abusable.

If this needs to change, it would take a far larger systemic change than simply introducing a few new items imo. Tho again, i don't think it is all that pressing an issue when it comes to the overall balance of the role.

If all these champs are building these items, then if the role is to strong, the items are too strong.

tho i still ascribe to the idea that supports benefited from runes more than most champions in the game. Runes are largely responsible for the increased early power supports have right now, and that was only made more potent with purchasing Sightstone not being a thing, saving them on 800g.

Teridax68May 3, 20181 votes

{quoted}

It just doesn't complement these champion's skill set. Instead, it offers situational isolated power purley on the active, as opposed to something like Shurelias which is has more general usefulness. when ti was FQC, it was an optional upgrade for an item you were already gonna get, which incentivised actually getting it.

Except Redemption's active is, at the very least, as isolated as FQC's, and the former item continues to be popular. It's not simply a question of champion synergy, so much one of defenses generally being much more valuable than a comparable amount in offense right now.

{quoted}

But here is the thing. Ultimately, Enchanters and Wardens as supports ARE primarily intended to be protection oriented in general.

Here is the literal quote from Riot's own definition of enchanters:

Enchanters focus on amplifying their allies’ effectiveness by directly augmenting them and defending them from incoming threats. Enchanters themselves are often quite fragile and bring relatively low damage to the table, meaning they really only shine when grouped together with others.

So, as a matter of fact, augmenting the potency of allies is put on equal footing with protection. This is also putting aside how these class definitions are retroactive and can easily be subject to change depending on the class's health.

{quoted}

The reason protection oriented items have historically, (yes, historically, even before Forbidden idol items) been the most effective on them is because these items actually help these champions do what they are trying to do primarily.

Actually, offensive supports, including mages and vanguards, have frequently been the dominant subgroup in bot lane, during times where support-based protection wasn't as plentiful. Also, which non-protection items are we talking about here? When exactly have support items not focused on protection? It's easy to say protection items have always been dominant when they have essentially been the only kind of itemization allowed on supports.

{quoted}

While I don't think adding additional options in the spirit of giving these champions more build options, I don't think steering them away from performing their primary function is exactly what the intent should be.

Alright then, let's just flatly nerf supports instead and call it a day. Because that is the only alternative here: at the end of the day, supports output too many defenses, and regardless of whether or not that is their "intent", that is unhealthy to the game. What I am proposing here is to avoid this kind of situation by shifting power from defense to offense, instead of simply removing it. Enchanters simply cannot remain in this current state where they output huge amounts of defenses with perfect reliability, so they will inevitably need to have that power reduced, as Riot themselves mentioned in their own recent design thoughts. Whether or not you want them to have better offensive power in compensation is up to you.

{quoted}

Its again, largely because there aren't really any good options for your kind of idea that actually synergises with the champions kits. I looked up Bard, and apparently Twin Shadows is popular on him, which makes sense with his roam focused playstyle and the fact he benefits from the MS.

... so you just provided an example of a support synergizing with a non-defensive item. Where is the problem then, exactly?

{quoted}

It also isn't something that is easy to come up with without it being abused by others.

... so let's not bother doing any further work to research the matter, all because one Boards user could not personally find an idea they liked. /s

{quoted}

At one point I had come up with an alternative item to Ardent Censor (Shares the same unique passive name) that instead allowed the users slowing effects to stack (like before the Slow change), so getting something like Rylai's would actually be an attractive option. but people shot the idea down saying it would be to abusable.

Right off the top of my head, I feel the idea of letting slows stack is too technical and lacking in especially interesting gameplay ("pile all of your CC onto this target at once" is generally not a sign of great play), so I can understand why the idea was shot down. I still fail to see how that invalidates the possible existence of any other viable offensive support item in League.

{quoted}

If this needs to change, it would take a far larger systemic change than simply introducing a few new items imo.

I can agree with this, and I think part of why we're in the current situation is because it's generally difficult to make support power scale innately, other than through shields and heals. Increasing slow values tends to be kind a meh, and increasing the duration of CC is a complete no-no. Beyond that, there may be something that could be done with scalings on stat steroids, debuffs, etc., but I agree that it is difficult to implement stat-based power on a class that is fundamentally not designed to require that many stats to function.

Teridax68May 3, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Yea, I was working off of my phone. I didn't actually see the last part until after i started typing.

Sure, but the issue was with your mode of replying, not the medium you were working with. Phone or not, you should've taken the time to read my whole post first, before starting to quote-reply.

{quoted}

While janna has always been a hot button issue, it has never been to quite the level it is now, nor stimulated the level of contempt and scrutiny.

That's fair, but at the end of the day, damage is not at the core of what made Janna too strong overall. Her current damage is certainly both inappropriate and often excessive, but she was strong long before her rework attempted to reduce her defensive power.

{quoted}

Not outside fo lane phase tho. By and large she retained the very same defensive oriented playstyle she has now.

Even outside of the laning phase, though, there was a time where Lulu could get more aggressive. She was a champion who could supply a lot of offensive power and also perform clutch saves, rather than just focus almost exclusively on protection as she does now.

{quoted}

As for changing lulu, i LARGELY disagree. Lulu doesn't really HAVE any offensive utility outside of buffing/enabling her allies with the ability to better perform offensively, which i personally don't have a problem with, but i digress.

I was talking about boosting her damage in that particular paragraph, as her innate is an on-hit effect. Damage is innately something Lulu is designed to apply, and that deserves to be brought out, in addition to the more offensive power she can provide with her ally W.

{quoted}

As for Solo Lane Lulu, changing her W isn't what is gonna make or break her solo lane. not even by a long shot. Her E being Point and Click largely is, as it provides undodgeable poke and a setup for her Q that while not truly uninteractive (there is a mind game involved with dodging it via your character movement) is still rather one sides.

Both are uninteractive, but it is her W that is most especially known for shutting down certain champions and forcing her into duo laning. Her E was nerfed several times already to the point where it was not very effective on solo lane Lulu, so while it was certainly a problem, it isn't the main problem with her lack of interactivity.

{quoted}

Personally, I don't find bringing Solo lane Lulu back to be of any remote priority to begin with. I still have nightmares of the never ending stream of nerfs to her after I started spamming that back in late Season3 and throughout season 4....

She was nerfed because her playstyle there was unhealthy, hence me proposing to make her healthy first before reintroducing her there. Diversity I think is a valid enough reason to enable more positions for champions, as long as they can be made healthy, and solo lane Lulu had a pretty solid fanbase.

{quoted}

Eh, that's not a good example. The damage it provides is equally useful in defensive scenarios as offensive ones,

How is bonus damage a defensive effect, exactly?

{quoted}

I mean, this can be just as much said for Thresh, really.

When did I say Thresh wasn't a versatile support? As a matter of fact, my opinion is that Thresh is too versatile a champion, precisely because he has some of the best tools for both picking and peeling. What you pointed out is evidence of this.

{quoted}

Putting anything CC oriented on items with the express purpose of making them better pick tools is extremely dangerous, as it could create an innumerable amount of abuse and fringe cases, especially on non-intended users.

Dangerous how? Any kind of meta change is "dangerous", that does not mean we should stagnate forever.

{quoted}

Even just in terms of general changes to these champions, it is dangerous. I wouldn't be too keen on essentially making it so enchanters can all be more like morganna with her 3 second Q as it were. that is a whole other can frustrating by itself.

Where exactly did I mention increasing CC durations?

{quoted}

Whatsmore is i feel the delineation between Enchanters and Catchers becomes blurred as a result.

Considering how this delineation is arbitrary and poorly-drawn to begin with, what exactly is the issue? Subclass labels fit the playstyle, not the reverse, and if enchanters are innately capable of making picks, then I don't see why we should pretend that's not a thing, just for the sake of keeping the little boxes we have right now.

{quoted}

I mean, sure, but it is still biased in favor of offense no? Similar to your previous examples? I don't see how it operating through said means invalidates that.

It provides offensive bonuses via its passive, but is primarily picked due to its healing + shielding stat and general efficiency. It is by no means a pure offensive item, and the prevalence of the healing + shielding stat in support builds should be enough of an indicator of what the actual priorities are in support itemization.

{quoted}

But it only provides said healing by means of reward for offensive play. Athenes also provides AP for Mana-regen, which increases the potency of enchanters Utility on their spells.

... except it doesn't actually empower the offensive play, other than through the AP it provides. At the end of the day, it serves to enhance the wielder's defensive capabilities, not their offense.

{quoted}

Locket+Redemption combo is actually not all that common anymore, nor is it all that potent on Enchanters specifically.

Locket + Redemption + Censer is still the most common item combo across all enchanters, and is still prevalent. You may prefer it on tank supports, but it's still a thing on enchanters.

{quoted}

The reason it still gets use is because the item itself is just to reliable stat check and always has been.

The item has had its potency on squishy users nerfed multiple times over time. The issue isn't simply that it's stat-efficient (though that is indeed part of the problem), but that its effect is plainly too attractive to pass up, even on a support champion not intended to use it. This is why we need to pare down the amount of defenses in itemization overall, especially support itemization.

{quoted}

To my knowledge, Riot was playing with Changes to rework the item all together, so i wouldn't preoccupy myself with the item too much.

Riot briefly did some experiments, then dropped the project entirely. Perhaps it may see more work in the future, but that may take a while, considering how we're seeing nothing of the sort in these big recent updates.

ChaddyFantomeMay 2, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Cancerous Lulu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=c5OfQJNX,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-05-01T00:56:25.223+0000)

I thought that's been a problem that people have overlooked throughout the years, especially since Riot basically gave them shield/heal stats for almost free...

this isn't true. Enchanter Supports were nerfed before the introduction of the stats back in season 4.

I'm just waiting for that to be nerfed/changed so enchanters can have some skill expression again.

implying they don't have any.
implying they had some that was somehow lost.

I don't think you know what skill expression means.

Timing and using it on the right target should feel rewarding, autobinding to the same teammate 24/7 does not.

ADC nerfs should help this by making it less effective to do so.

The Yetii RiderMay 1, 20189 votes

It's okay, they gave Irelia 300% damage against shields.

300%. That's the number they figured they needed during testing for her to actually kill a priority target.

BattalionMay 1, 20181 votes

Yeah you're right, not enough, r-tard Rito...

450% damage against shields.

YuGiHoMay 1, 20181 votes

i wish they put in a shield killer marksmen item in since they are the ones fighting vs shield users for most of the game

Seer of MindMay 1, 20187 votes

Have to agree, if shielding supports get better, it makes the Overheal rune and item 3174 way better for healers as well. This could be a indirect buff to item 3504 supports in general.

jocomotionMay 1, 20186 votes

If they want to push other champions bot lane they could.... Make Janna shield give AD AND AP, but less of each than currently, Make Lulu shield weaker but make pix’s damage buff stronger. Push for specific comps by increasing seemingly random abilities power Ivern has extra range on rootcaller, kill multiple birds with one stone

sho ayaneMay 1, 201824 votes

Lulu does not need more damage xD

SpecterVonBarenMay 1, 20181 votes

Make the increased damage only apply to allies that use it.

BattalionMay 1, 20184 votes

Lulu is Nunu levels of derpy about how weak they seems and feel, but then you realize you're half health. It's more passive than AurelionSol because you get a big pop when you get booped. With Lulu and Nunu you just get a particle effect and it feels like nothing happened, until your screen turns gray.

darkevilshadow17May 1, 201815 votes

I would prefer if they gave Janna's shield adaptive AP/AD instead. AP AND AD would be really strong on champions like Varus, Kai'sa and Kog'maw.

Athenes LuluMay 1, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Make shield weaker but make pix’s damage buff stronger.

That would actually render her support more useless and encourage her to go back to solo lanes, if anything.

What it could provide is meaningful utility purposes. Right now, it's just some point-and-click "free damage" that allows almost instantly better trades early on, despite it being able to do so much more, like giving true vision of the targeted enemy that most players overlook.

ChaddyFantomeMay 2, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Cancerous Lulu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=c5OfQJNX,comment-id=00030002,timestamp=2018-05-01T05:52:12.047+0000)

That would actually render her support more useless and encourage her to go back to solo lanes, if anything.

What it could provide is meaningful utility purposes. Right now, it's just some point-and-click "free damage" that allows almost instantly better trades early on, despite it being able to do so much more, like giving true vision of the targeted enemy that most players overlook.

I mean, if you ignore the short range, sure.

That said, I still propose that they make her passive provide some form of utility. Currently it's just a damage tool.

VerxintMay 1, 20181 votes

If they want other champions in bot lane they need to make it so the """"""""""weak early game"""""""""" ADC's don't have good wave control and level 2 zoning/all in

Snowman ArcMay 1, 20181 votes

Janna shield can grant adaptive AD or AP :)

ChaddyFantomeMay 2, 20181 votes

That change wouldnt do what you think it would. The damage from her Passive is n every auto attack. The change wouldn't nerf her for ADC and make her better on other champions att all.

It would just make her a better solo laner.

Lulu already has the weakest shield of all the shielding enchanters as is after ti was nerfed last season. Personally Im fine with Lulu staying DPS focused. It's her thing.

She already synergised with AP DPS champs like Azir Teemo Kayle .

warmcorntortillaMay 2, 20181 votes

Eh, Lulu's shield is pretty garbage. If you took it away and made her do more damage, I guarantee you she will go back toplane, because Lulu poops on melee champions hardcore.

SõnaMay 1, 20184 votes

Shield decay mechanism, let the shield stays strongest in 1 seconds, and slowly decay afterwards just like bloodthirster's.
make Shield stack works like tenacity's , the higher you stack the shield, the lesser the shield power would be after the first shield. E.G when Janna's shield:300HP + locket 200HP, so the shield should be make of 400HP.
Add shield piercing item OR add shield piercing mechanism into armor penetration item. (like XX% of damage ignores shield and stab enemy)

Otherwise, nerf support's item.

I hate to say this as a support player, but they needs to get nerf with point+click shielding. Especially when shield items are providing too much utilities with efficient bald stats. Just look at Ardent Censor's passive stats and the price, and look at the locket..

y0r1ckMay 1, 20186 votes

Decay* Etc. = I have more items to list but I'm too lazy to list them all E.g. = for example

I agree, except I don't think a shield breaking item will be good. Why complicate things like that when we can just nerf shields themselves?

EleshakaiMay 1, 20184 votes

you know... multiplicative doesn't mean what you think it means.

If I had a 300 shield and a 200 shield, additive that'd be 500... multiplicative, it'd be 60000. I don't think you want that. (the reason multiplicative sometimes yields smaller numbers is when dealing with percentages)

I believe what you want is diminishing returns on shields... ie where if one shield is applied, any subsequent shield applied for x seconds shields for % less.

SõnaMay 1, 20182 votes

You are right, since I don't speak in English frequently so I could be wrong at picking words.

ChaddyFantomeMay 2, 20181 votes

This is fine to an extent. but would still need SOME compensation buffs somewhere.
this is just bad. It'd be like punishing Burst Mages for using all their damage in a short window. Shields are basically just opposite equivalent of damage on the spectrum where power budgeting is concerned. The primary purpose of it IS to block Burst and poke. Shield Stacking by itself isn't a problem.
This is ALSO terrible. As I've said before on this board, shields, unlike heals have no use outside of combat, since a shield is only as useful as the damage is successfully blocks., whereas healing can be performs in the neutral. a Shield pierce item wouldn't promote the same gameplay pattern that GW does, where it encourages you not letting the healer stay back and heal. Instead, it would strictly be a stat check that is engaging for neither party.

All in all, if shields REALLY are a problem atm, either just nerf them or make em last less long.

DraehlMay 1, 20184 votes

I hope they broadly do a support balance pass. Support items are largely too strong, while individual champion kits feel lopsided.

As a Bard main for instance, I feel like he does too much damage at the expense of the rest of his kit. Would like to see his Meep & Q damage scaled back a bit but increase his armor/resists somewhat, and cut his W mana cost a touch since it is way too high. If you look at his kit the "burst mage" archetype doesn't exactly jump out at you aside from ratios and how the kit interacts so well with Electrocute. He really should be more of a "utility catcher/offtank", sort of like a ranged version of Taric or Thresh .

AMYS GRAVEMay 1, 20184 votes

And that made me realize.....all these changes not only make assassins better, but also, in turn, make shielding supports better.

Support itemization is built such that their power comes from multiplying the ADCs power, so ADC nerfs are an indirect nerf to supports too. The AS that ardent gives is lower which reflects back into how well its passive can be used, with less AS ADCs can't use the Zeke's passive burn as well, you'll get less healing from knights vow, and that's not to mention that with less AD, AS, and crit any of those stats given to them by a supports kit won't go as far because adcs power is multiplicative across these stats. Supports protecting adcs may become more crucial to the ADCs success, but the value of the ADCs success is going down, so overall the importance of that job goes down.

Hopefully this means supports can get to supporting the teams success, instead of just one individuals.

BoltonatorMay 1, 20182 votes

If they nerf shields we’ll just work around it with more cc uptime. I rarely see Lulus shields get too ridiculous until we get to 40+ minutes when I can afford to buy a deathcap item 3222 + resolve tree runes. Even then I can barely get the shield over 700hp, and it covers a ton of investment that, to be frank, late-game mages and adcs can melt through like it’s wet toilet tissue.

TLDR: I don’t disgaree utterly with your premise but I think shields are a very minor issue when compared to the current tank meta

InfernapeMay 1, 20184 votes

What tank meta?

Mokuto BunshiMay 1, 20182 votes

There was a really good suggestion in another thread:

Make shields have a lower duration and more importantly, decay.

That way putting a shield on ON TIME and not early is skill expressive in its self and to make it better you can have each shield applied decay at its own rate so that timely shield stacking is a thing, but heavily penalized if done over the top.

Another idea (that should only be done if needed, my idea :P) could also be have all enchanter shields decay at the same time (after 3-4 seconds and not after 5-6) so the bigger the shield ehem Karma ehem the more it decays per second.

Iffy JarlMay 1, 20182 votes

I don't really see that happening mostly because the way I see it you are saying shielding supps are going to get better from the balancing of the adc class, if you wnna say that enchanter supports are a problem now and will be a problem in the future despite these changes then yeah I could see that argument. I just don't see how these changes will bring more power to the enchanter class.

The main changes I think i saw were nerfs to lane sustain and the pushing back of ad items effectiveness and more focus to dealing dmg to tanks and not squishes

I see tanky vanguards as the ones to really make these new changes work in their favor being able to more absolutely protect the adc with cc as opposed to shields and being able to help them into the now prolonged late game, and seeing as dmg to squishier targets is being reworked the need for shielding in ad vs. ad battles is lessened since you have less of a chance of being blown up

Spice POWAHMay 1, 20182 votes

I remember seeing a board suggestion that healing/shielding an ally causes you to be considered "In combat" so characters that rely on being out of combat like janna can't shield someone without slowing down.

remakoroMay 1, 20182 votes

Holy shit. It made me think really hard and i still dont understand how nerfing adc indirectly buffs supports. People literally saying that supports just sucking ADCs #@%&s to win. Thats how much they are related.

warmcorntortillaMay 2, 20182 votes

I think you say "God bless Lulu" because of that point-and-click polymorph.

Lemme tell you, if that Zed has been doing ANYthing, and gets a full rotation off on my adc? That Lulu shield is probably not gonna be the deciding factor. But my point-and-click polymorph? That's the real biter.

2nd ChanceMay 1, 20181 votes

Soon after?

It needs to come with the marksmen changes if anything

DysnomiaMay 1, 20181 votes

I feel like Riot needs to release more flashy skins and cosmetic crap, so no one really cares what they do with "balance" in "big patches". They are that amazing.

RyrynounetMay 1, 20181 votes

Her laning sucks

Spamm W on you mindlessly and use E on his adc to prevent her to get dammaged

FilDaFunkMay 1, 20181 votes

Supports are considered powerful because they can peel well or save their adc. That is where their power lies. By decreasing the potency of ADCs, supports' power is indirectly nerfed.

ADCs were always supposed to be powerful lategame, when they have all their items. I think a major problem currently is that assassins can't do their job quickly enough, since they seem to have delays built in.

To sum up changes, ADCs' power curves are being moved towards lategame, rather than them being more powerful.

To make on last point, you said Janna will be better since she's good at mid to late game. Why is that? This is when you have teamfights beginning, so she can protect adcs well to be able to dominate a fight - she's weak at laning but strong in fights.

I'm not sure how you think any of this is a buff to supports.

2 Cute for VIMay 1, 20181 votes

all who downvoted this great post are janna/lulu mains

ChaddyFantomeMay 2, 20181 votes

its the opposite. ADC nerfs means supports that glue to the ADC and only the ADC are strictly weaker. Support utility acts as a multiplicative force to the unit they are assisting. if you nerf ADCs, you nerf the supports that are helping said ADC.

This is good, because now supports will be pushed and forced towards thinking more about how they are assisting other members of the team as opposed to just the ADC, which not only makes the role more fun to actually play, but also makes it so there is more windows of opportunity to play around for everyone involved.

It also lets us evaluate the power of supports from a more holistic viewpoint going forward.

xelakerMay 2, 20181 votes

you have it all wrong. now that the adc is finally stepping down someone has to take their place at the top [sg-syndra]

notice me Sin piMay 2, 20181 votes

i think an overhaul on shield mechanics is needed. What if shields only absorbed partial damage? Shields would not shut down pokes entirely ~~laning against lulu doesnt have to be uninteractive anymore~~, while having big impact against burst damage. At same time, squishies with silver of HP left would still be killable regardless of shield amount with enough burst.

It would go against what shields did since beginning of LoL, but if Riot wants to keep current CDR creep and support gold creep, such a drastic change would be needed.

Ale non è maleMay 2, 20181 votes

Dear OP (and other people debating Lulu as well), Janna strength does not rely on mere numbers - unless she is ridicouloulsy underpowered -, it rely on a pretty simple on a simple concept of how you can win game in League that often get lost into discussion

Since what, season 3(?), LoL is not a game where you can carry alone to a win in a 1vs9 fashion...but if you are a far superior player than your opponent you can win with just the help of atleast 1 guy(2 is better, though) that even if not particularly skilled does his job in a competent way to help you do your carry job. That's why someone like Janna remains at the top of WR% (at least, in soloQ) regardless of what changes happen to her in terms of power levels.

Both when Ardent Censer and Janna was OP and now that Janna is shit looking at her raw numbers, Janna remained strong regardless because as a champ she can ALWAYS help some hard carry as long as she or the carry doesn't screw up. When people say "Jana is super easy and freelo", I challenge you to prove it and try to cary AS JANNA when your teammates sucks and there is no one who can actually carry (or the ones who can carry are stupid enough to not ending up carrying). You can't - as well as with the majority of the supports considered "OP" -

What you can do is not screw up and help one of those 1 vs9 players to actually play 2 vs 8 and by the virtue or doing it so win you the game

To the point of the topic: No, these changes are not going to make Janna better, if anything they are making champions who can deal a big amount of damage stronger in the short term because Janna partner will have less damage to trade and make shielding champs worthwhile

For Lulu the thought is similar, evene though she is quite a different champ from Janna, but I guess you can apply some general principles