Tank Items When Behind in Lane

RookPusher··6 votes·4,504 views

I'm not asking for anything here, because this is more of a feeling than a constant problem, but when you fall behind in lane for any reason - counter picked, spectacular early gank, screw up - tank items seem a world away from reasonable. I don't feel this problem exists when the lane is a stalemate or when I'm winning, but it is sheer misery when you get camped, can't buy items, and your team either won't respond or doesn't know they should.

I'm wondering a few things:

  1. Is this a prevalent feeling with you top-laner tanks?
  2. Is there a reasonable way to shake off a double-gank barring team support?

Some of this is obvious. If you're behind, you shouldn't be building items as if you were ahead. I get that. But also it shouldn't feel like a slow decent into oblivion. One of the major problems with this game is the snowball, FF @ 15 mentality that's all too common. Full disclosure, I'm in Bronze, trying earnestly to carry myself out, and if I'm being honest, you can often quickly assess that the enemy knows how to rotate, communicate, and read a map, while our team is asking what an objective is. Those games are just practice-mode improve-yourself situations. But we need to do more in terms of turn-around options.

As a top-lane tank, I'd love a system-wide acknowledgement that comeback are possible. And I feel as if getting the utility of tank items is a barrier that prevents this, at least in one aspect of the game.

14 Comments

sneakydoug5 votes

If you build damage and your opponent has a lead, then you will consistently continue to die in fights and give them a wider lead. If they build damage and you build resistances, you can (hopefully) survive to farm and keep pace. Additionally, high damage players will inevitably try to tower dive you. If you don’t have resistances, you can and often will die to these dives. But if you’ve built your defences up, you can often survive and let the tower do its work, giving you a kill, breaking even.

ForFoxSakes4 votes

When you build tank items you can still survive and farm properly against a bad matchup or when behind. Can just hold the tower and let the rest of your team do what they need to without having to worry about holding top waves consistently when you die or need to go back from being so low from picking bad fights

When ahead or good matchup you build damage to try to kill the other laner. You don't and cant try to kill the other laner when you're behind or hard countered yet low elo players still do which is why they get stomped and hard feed when going damage then try to keep fighting over and over

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

Except that tanks have terrible farming patterns when behind, and with how useless towers are, won't be long for either being tower-dived or shoved out and loose the tower.

Need Gold 4 Tent3 votes

The idea of tank items when behind is that they tend to be cheaper than damage. Typically, the winner buys damage with his lead, and the loser buys defense with what he has (assuming 1 or 2 kills and not a total stomp). At least for the early game, this means that the winner doesn't exactly have a lead yet - if they were to fight again, the loser with a defense item still has a chance to come up on top. This will obviously taper off as the winner buys more and more damage which will outscale the defensive player.

Like, a finished Deadman's is probably stronger than unfinished pieces of a triforce.

Paroe3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Need Gold 4 Tent,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bykMgx6H,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-10-18T15:16:11.664+0000)

The idea of tank items when behind is that they tend to be cheaper than damage. Typically, the winner buys damage with his lead, and the loser buys defense with what he has (assuming 1 or 2 kills and not a total stomp). At least for the early game, this means that the winner doesn't exactly have a lead yet - if they were to fight again, the loser with a defense item still has a chance to come up on top. This will obviously taper off as the winner buys more and more damage which will outscale the defensive player.

Like, a finished Deadman's is probably stronger than unfinished pieces of a triforce.

Thats actually a fallacy though. Tank items are 2900g with 8001100 combine costs while being 6080% gold efficient without their passives.

If you want to go bang for you buck, you actually want to go split push with marksmen items like item 3095 which has a whopping 270% gold efficiency including its passive.

5050BS2 votes

I need to take this to heart. I do it sometimes but often just stick to my normal build path. My builds have Tanky items just they get finished later. Need to switch that up if I miss play early with no help.

ChaddyFantome2 votes

imho, tanks just need to stop being balanced around top lane all together because they aren't healthy by design as sololaners.

Iota Theta2 votes

{quoted}

imho, tanks just need to stop being balanced around top lane all together because they aren't healthy by design as sololaners.

Here’s a question for that: around what role would you balance them and their items? Where would you push them? Jungle or Support most likely, but supports, nor really jungles unless they et a lot of kills, don’t really have the income to purchase full tank items as they are, and reducing their cost could open possibilities of non-tanks picking up their items and using them better.

ChaddyFantome2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Iota Theta,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bykMgx6H,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2018-10-18T20:32:49.032+0000)

Here’s a question for that: around what role would you balance them and their items? Where would you push them? Jungle or Support most likely, but supports, nor really jungles unless they et a lot of kills, don’t really have the income to purchase full tank items as they are, and reducing their cost could open possibilities of non-tanks picking up their items and using them better.

i don't really agree. Tank items are already cheaper than damage items as is. to the point where supports already buy regular tank items. And Junglers while they dont get the income of a solo laner, aren't so gold deprived that they are significantly far off, especially when they are performing well.

The mere concept of a Sololane tank is inherently flawed. a Tank, be design, is made to soak of damage for the rest of the team. If you make a sololane tank you aren't really making a tank. You are making a duelist/fighter that also out tanks you.

Imagine a juggernaut with the initiation of a diver. that's what all sololane Tanks end up being and why they always either underperform toplane or phase the entirety of toplane out when they are able to sololane. You can't make a champion that is designed to take tons of damage and live healthy in a 1v1 environment if they have respectable/good offense to go with it while also making them good at protecting/initiating.

Its just too much of a generalist pick at that point.

Iota Theta2 votes

{quoted}

i don't really agree. Tank items are already cheaper than damage items as is. to the point where supports already buy regular tank items. And Junglers while they dont get the income of a solo laner, aren't so gold deprived that they are significantly far off, especially when they are performing well.

A factor in the cost to take into account are what stats they’re getting. Tanks can get armor and health, but also usually need MR for later. Many damage dealers in toplane focus AD/AP and health, which are on most of their items, prior to picking up defenses if that is what they usually get. Some of the core damage items are also designed to reduce the effectiveness of tank items, like Cleaver and Whisper items. Not that that’s bad, just pointing out.

This also points to a different factor, tanks have a very different role in the jungle, and don’t really get as fed as damage jungle champs. They can assist well, but most have slower clears, and often need level 6 to properly gank, although they aren’t the only ones. Plus, when tanks have been pushed into jungle more, or support more, we tend to get complaints from other types of junglers that tanks are too strong there. Toplane has some of the better anti-tank measures with clears, duelists, and a number of early Cleaver champs.

The mere concept of a Sololane tank is inherently flawed. a Tank, be design, is made to soak of damage for the rest of the team. If you make a sololane tank you aren't really making a tank. You are making a duelist/fighter that also out tanks you.

Imagine a juggernaut with the initiation of a diver. that's what all sololane Tanks end up being and why they always either underperform toplane or phase the entirety of toplane out when they are able to sololane. You can't make a champion that is designed to take tons of damage and live healthy in a 1v1 environment if they have respectable/good offense to go with it while also making them good at protecting/initiating.

Its just too much of a generalist pick at that point.

You are correct, though, that tanks are designed to soak damage. But to make a sololane tank is still a tank, at least by kit. Ornn is a great example in his original design, lower damage, higher impact, and could lane decently. Tanks don’t need to fight, mainly farm. They could likely shift to deal damage to minions and monsters, but that doesn’t seem always favorable.

A big thing though is no tank can outdamage a fighter. You can say if you give a juggernaut initiation, you have a tank, but that’s not true. A tank is defined not just by soaking damage, but also by their crowd control. A tank’s base damage is mainly to farm and trade, but damage dealers still should and will outdamage them. Early game, Renekton, Panth, and similar and easily push a tank out, while Jax and some other late-gamers outscale them. Tanks also lack tower taking power that fighters have because most of them don’t get stronger autos, further differentiating them in their roles. But tanks damage is mainly for farming.

Clockwork Mouse2 votes

If ADC and you see lots of burst damage forget your stupid meta build. Get item 3047 at least! What good is that 35% attack speed if you can't even get off more then 1 attack anyway?

RookPusher1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Clockwork Mouse,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bykMgx6H,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2018-10-18T21:02:52.570+0000)

If ADC and you see lots of burst damage forget your stupid meta build. Get item 3047 at least! What good is that 35% attack speed if you can't even get off more then 1 attack anyway?

Well, AS is a huge problem with ADCs as well. If you hit the mid-game with 3 AS items, it's curtains, and I see this is slightly less than half of the games I play.

dogehkiin1 votes

Mainly because building damage when you don't even have the opportunity of damaging your enemy before dying is worse than building sustain to be able to farm and hold your lane.

Also because against certain champs armor/mr is extremly efective even when they have conqueror and black cleaver and it will give you the upper hand if she/he isn't very ahead.

pmn19901 votes

I'm noticing people aren't comparing a tank to a support. Which is what a true tank is doing. You survive in lane and your jungle ganks and either gets you a kill or an assist. Either way it gets you fed.

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