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the REAL issue with nidalee

SwiftKitten88··2 votes·714 views

there is no TLDR... either read the whole post or don't bother to comment, because too much here can be taken out of context if you don't read the whole thing.

with all the 100% pick ban Nidalee at worlds, nidalee is getting a lot of hate that she really doesn't deserve.

does she have a 54% win rate in challenger.. YES she does.. i may be a nid main.. but when i got statistics in front of me i cant dispute.. so be it.. I'm not going to start spouting nonsense and saying she isn't "OP" in challenger or even in diamond +. when she CLEARLY has a 54% win rate there

But there IS something a LOT of people here are NOT taking into account.

yes nidalee has a 54% winrate in challenger.

but she ALSO has a 46% winrate in bronze a 48% winrate in silver a 49.5% winrate in gold a 51% winrate in plat that is 97% of the population right there.

reaching 54% in challenger and starting to become and issue at diamond + aka the top 3%

but when you look at this data you SHOULD also yes she is balance for 97% of the population..

but ALSO her winrate DIFFERENCE between bronze at challenger is 9% NINE PERCENT and ANY flat non compensation nerf to her is not only going to lower her challenger win rate.. its going to affect EVERY elo.

so when i see people calling for nidalee "NERFS" i call bullshit.. you CANNOT nerf her without DESTROYING her in the elos where MOST people play.

so what IS the solution... well the solution is to CLOSE the gap between bronze and challenger to a more REASONABLE level

I'm not asking for Syndra 's 0.2 differnce of 49.7-49.9%

but at LEAST keep her in the 4-5% difference range

because at THAT range

even if we keep her 46% winrate in bronze.. she will only reach 51% at the highest level.

granted i think that is wrong.. i think that by silver (which is my elo) she should have at LEAST a 48% winrate and what she has NOW in silver.

and honestly LOOKING at the 9% winrate difference she DOES need changes..

but a FLAT NERF is 100% wrong, to fix nidalee so she isnt either worthless at lower elos and or absurdly OP at higher elos the need to CLOSE THE GAP between the two.

now in patch 6.15 or 6.9this was done PERFECTLY

and infract changer her winrate from a 44% winrate in bronze and a 57% winrate in challanger to the current 46% winrate in bronze and a 54% winrate in challenger

but changes like 6.11 this was NOT done right

what i see on PBE is another nerf which is NEARLY IDENTICAL to 6.11 this is NOT what nidalee needs..

she needs to be BALANCED between the elos. not worsened across EVERY elo when she is already doesn't even REACH 50% until mid gold

does nidalee need changes.. YES.. but what i see on pbe right NOW is is WRONG. A flat nerf is going goign to be cause for another buff down the line.

BECAUSE a the end of the day, if you are GOING to destroy my mid nidalee.. if you are GOING to gut my top nidalee.. and you are going to freaking disembowel my support nidalee.. ALL to give me nidalee jungle.. YOU BETTER FUCKING MAKE HER BE ABLE TO JUNGLE IN MY ELO...

16 Comments

dunder kill6 votes

Your entire point is invalid because LoL is NOT balanced around Bronze and Silver

TheYordleGunner1 votes

{quoted}

Your entire point is invalid because LoL is NOT balanced around Bronze and Silver

Well that would suck for Riot if the majority of their players, AKA below plat stopped playing, then there would be no competitive scene

Dynikus5 votes

You didn't give a solution at all. You just reiterated the same thing over and over. Your solution is basically

you need to fix nidalee by fixing her!

Riot can't just simply "close the gap" between bronze and challenger. You're saying what the end result should be without actually saying how to get there.

Mimy2 votes

you need to fix nidalee by fixing her!

You mean to Spay her?

SwiftKitten882 votes

{quoted}

You didn't give a solution at all. You just reiterated the same thing over and over. Your solution is basically

Riot can't just simply "close the gap" between bronze and challenger. You're saying what the end result should be without actually saying how to get there.

first off yes, i did i specifically said.. FLAT nerfs will not fix her ,and i pointed out the PROPER way to nerf her is like how she was nerfed in patch 6.15 and 6.9

{quoted}

Your entire point is invalid because LoL is NOT balanced around Bronze and Silver

... again... wrong.. my point is CORRECT. because WHEN you try to balance around the higher elos it WILL NOT WORK when nidalee has a 9% winrate difference between bronze and challenger. you cant do a FLAT nerf to her higher elo wihout absolutely gutting her lower elo

the ENTIRE post is about how no FLAT buff or nerfs can be done to her without either destroying higher or lower elos as long as the 9% difference remains. she needs a nerf that will target her higher elo at the same time as a buff that will target her LOWER elo. at LEAST to the point where it has a net "zero" winrate loss of at lower elos.

EVERYTHING done to nid has to be around making the gap between lower and higher elo SMALLER so we can get to the point where she CAN be balanced around say "plat or diamond" WITHOUT dropping her lower elos sub 45%.

no champ in ANY ELO deserves to have a sub 45% win rate on their primary role. now it took me 2 years to finally give up that mid and top of also TWO of nidalee "primary roles"

but my god i am NOT going to let her JUNGLE winrate drop below 45%.. she already freaking has a 40% winrate top and a 36% winrate mid, which WERE her PRIMARY roles season 1-4.

if you are GOING to destroy my mid nidalee.. if you are GOING to gut my top nidalee.. and you are going to freaking disembowel my support nidalee.. all to give me jungle.. YOU BETTER FUCKING MAKE HER BE ABLE TO JUNGLE IN MY ELO...

LankPants4 votes

That lowest rank that LoL is balanced around is plat. When you're looking at champ balance you need to look at Plat/Diamond/Masters/Challenger/Competitive. Gold, Silver and Bronze are irreverent because they are complete and utter shitfests. Most players aren't Plat/Gold/Silver/Bronze anyway. Most players are unranked. If you're going to be balancing around the majority of players you should balance around an ~ lv 25 normal game. We don't do that because LoL is a competitive game and you can't balance around all levels.

SwiftKitten882 votes

{quoted}

That lowest rank that LoL is balanced around is plat. When you're looking at champ balance you need to look at Plat/Diamond/Masters/Challenger/Competitive. Gold, Silver and Bronze are irreverent because they are complete and utter shitfests. Most players aren't Plat/Gold/Silver/Bronze anyway. Most players are unranked. If you're going to be balancing around the majority of players you should balance around an ~ lv 25 normal game. We don't do that because LoL is a competitive game and you can't balance around all levels.

yeah and that WORKS when yo have a difference of LESS THAN 5% from bronze to challenger.. because WHEN you balance around diamond.. the champ is STILL generally not OP or worthless in ANY elo.

but when you have a champ with a NINE PERCENT difference between bronze to challenger YOU CANNOT balance around plat UNTIL you lower the gap difference.. becuase IF you balance around plat WHILE you have a difference of WELL over 5% the champ is going to be WORTHLESS at lower elos.

and like i said.. NO CHAMP in ANY ELO should have a win rate under 45% on their MAIN role.

IF you "balance" nidalee at diamond elo when she CURRENT has a 53% winrate at diamond as long as that 9% gap remains you are going to drop her lower elos winrates to completely absurdly unacceptable levels

balance arund diamond elo does NOT mean diamond elo is allowed to be balance and the hell with the other elos..

if diamond nid has a 50% win rate and bronze has a 34% win rate and silver has a 38% win rate and challenger has a 78% win rate.. THE CHAMP ISN'T BALANCED!!!

it doesn't freaking MATTER if she is balanced in diamond you balance her around ONLY diamond and say "to hell with everyone else"

when you balance a champ around a specific elo.. you ALSO need to keep SOME form of balance around the OTHER elo.

becuase if people are bting about nidalee having a 54% winrate in challanger and it being 4% too high.. then i have EVERY god damn right to bitch about bronze elo being 4% too low.

its 4% either way.

and you know what im NOT even bitching about nid 46% winrate in bronze, by all rights i COULD BE.

what im BITCHING about.. is you people think its "ok" to nerf that 46% winrate in bronze EVEN MORE just to lower the challenger winrate

if you want to NERf her challnger winrate.. you BETTER FREAKING GIVE A COMPENSATION NERF FOR LOWER ELOS.

becuase if nidalee JUNGLE winrate drops below 45% in bronze when i already have a sub 40% top support and mid winrate on her..

you are NOT goign to shut me up until it is fixed..

LankPants4 votes

you are NOT goign to shut me up until it is fixed..

I'll just keep downvoting you alongside everyone else then because you're incredibly stupid and blinded by your own bias.

Dominick Destine1 votes

{quoted}

That lowest rank that LoL is balanced around is plat. When you're looking at champ balance you need to look at Plat/Diamond/Masters/Challenger/Competitive. Gold, Silver and Bronze are irreverent because they are complete and utter shitfests.

This.

You always balance games around the people that know how to play, not around people that don't.

Banana Nations2 votes

Honestly after reading your post my position on whether nid needs nerfs or not has changed, may I ask what the nerf that is expected to come? Also what would you in particular change because riot does like to know what the mains of champions think a champ needs in terms of nerfs.

SwiftKitten882 votes

[{quoted}](name=Spln To Wln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=byKetpgL,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2016-10-07T01:32:10.108+0000)

Honestly after reading your post my position on whether nid needs nerfs or not has changed, may I ask what the nerf that is expected to come? Also what would you in particular change because riot does like to know what the mains of champions think a champ needs in terms of nerfs.

Nidalee

Pounce (Cougar W) 
    Cooldown increased to 7/6.5/6/5.5/5 from 5 at all ranks.
    [Hunted target reset adjusted to 3.5 - 2 seconds from 3-1.5]

as for what i would change.. right i woudl start with removing that nerf because it is COMPLETELY the wrong thing to do. nidalee kit is based entrily around landing a spear, going and and getting out..

not only with this change barely affect her clear speed it is goign to force nidalee further to the point where NO ONE wants her to go.. which is to JUST sit back and throw spears and to NOT pounce in.

becuase IF nidalee NEVER goes in.. she pretty much CANNOT be killed.

and at the same time it also mean that as the nidalee player you are only using human form and using 1 skill.. over and over.. and is really freaking boring compared to going in poucing into danger and then hoepfulyl getting out alive if you calculated it right

because as soon as "hopefully gettign out alive if you calucated it right becomes.. well if i EVEr go in im going to die becuase i can ever get out anymore.. then nid becuase hell to face, and boring to play and worthless for her team.

that is why i think increasing the pounce reset and cooldowns is a HORRIBLE idea. even if it did get counterbuffs

what i would change well as i have pointed out the MAIN issue with nidalee is her differnce between lower and higher elos.. so if i was riot i would spend my time focuign on WHAT exactly hgiher elos nids do that lower elo nids do NOT do.

they removed the auto attack reset from chaning forms and yes that was fantastic

it hurt higher elos who abused the mechanic and the compensation buff that same with it buffed lower elos.

yes i REALLY miss the ability to instantly kill a ward the second it was placed with an auto swap forms, auto then takedown

but that was a small price to pay

what can be changed right NOW? idk, i would have to give it more thought.

i mean i can come up with lots of different ways to buff her (the vast majority of those being reverts to things she previous had, like % hp on traps)

but as to what she absues at higher elo that makes her OP? well honestly idk.. i am NOT a higher elo player. idk what the abuse and what i don't.

but i DO know one thing. out of ALL the champ i have EVER played.. including all my supports and every champ i have ever even tried.

nidalee is by FAR the one most affected by how good you can communicate with your team.

i know it sounds simple.. but nidalee is VERY team-comp reliant,

most junglers either bring tankiness or CC, nidalee brings neither.. she brings straight up damage.. but she can apply that damage press accross the map very fast. and from a early point in the game

however to make nidalee work at her best, you team to work with you,

nidalee's gap closer realies on her hitting a spear and while lower elo payers are worse and dodgeing skillshots.. they are also worse at landing them

but if the enemy champ is hard CCed for even .5 seconds that ids enough time for a max range spear to hit. and if that max range spear hits then you have a 2v1 and with nidalle being pure damage.. you are almost guaranteed a kill.

at the same time.. at lower elos.. if you miss that spear, your gank did absolutely nothing no damage.. no summoners burned, you cant pounce in.. you cant do ANY damage.. you might force the enemy to cs under turret if you stay here but you failed your gank.

i think the simple fact that making a team that works with nidalee instead of blindly picking her every game has a HUGE factor in her winrate difference. and that if you can CC and enemy of even .5 second to guarentee that spear lands.. you can snowball really hard until you drop off late game.

the problem with this is.. i really have NO idea how to fix this. nidalee biggest strength comes from her team being able to set up cc on a target to nearly 100% guarantee a kill

and that really isnt somthing you can hit with a nerf to nidalee.
if the reason nidalee is better at hgiher elos than lower elos.. becuase of her reliant on teamwork

the only solution i can think of it to somehow make her less reliant on her team.. but stronger by herself.

and making her stronger b herself can be acoombiled by almost anything.. btu making her WORSE with her team? i have no idea how to do that.

as to what i would do, honestly if i was riot i would do one of two things. i would either leave her as she is right now.. untouched and let the 4 extra ban coming in season 7 make her get banned more.. until they can FIND some sort of mechanic that higher elos abuse that lower elos dont so that make make another change like 6.9 or 6.15 (this is what i would do right now given the choice)

OR i would just revert nidalee to her last know state where she was balanced across every elo.

which HAPPENS to be patch 4.17, BEFORE she was let into the jungle.

i woudl leave her like that for a patch or two so iverify that she remains in the same balanced state that was was during that patch with every change in the change as it is currently.

if she DOES remains balanced.. and cannot jungle i would then add in the 6.9 and the 6.15 changes and let thoe sit for a patch or two.

and again if she remains balcned and nothing goes wrong.. i would THEN and ONLY THEN attempt to give her SOME way to jungle that will not cause the fiasco of season 5, a way that will NOT remove her ability to top mid and support, and even then if nidalee HAS a 45% win rate as jungle.. it would be OK because as long as she has 1 viable role at a 48-50% win rate its fine.

the issue i have is not JUST that her Winrate is goign to plummet below 45% if this pbe changes goes through.

its the fact that riot REMOVED her ability to mid lane.. REMOVED her ability to top lane, REMOVED her ability to support just so they could "balance" her in the jungle.

she has THREE balanced roles. if you are going to take away THREE roles. by ability to first pick nid into almost ANY comp becuase even those nid has 20 really common counterpicks. if i first pick nid.. good luck trying to guess what lane im going to be in so you can counterpick me.

i lost all of that so nid could jungle.. and i first i didn't even like her in the jungle.. and while i DO really liker her in the jungle now. the point remains.

i lost THREE of my balanced roles so i could get jungle and have it "balanced" if you CAN'T make it so she is "balanced" in my elo... then give me my other 3 roles back.

right now in my elo she sits a 48%, now obviously i would like 50%, but im not stupid enough to ask for that when i see she already has a 54% winrate in challenger because any flat buff to her would just riase her higher elo winrate too.. which does NOT need to be done.

what pisses me off is people saying that "we needs to nerf her becuase she is op in higher elos" YES she is op in higher elos.. YES she needs a nerf at higher elos... NO i dont have a problem with nid being balanced around diamond or plat.

but there are a few VERY SIMPLE THINGS that need to be done.

any NERF done to her at higher elo needs to make sure that her lower elso does NOT drop, and will ideally if at all possible, INCREASE. any BUFF done to her needs to insure that it wont break higher elos again the BEST way to fix her would be to find a way to drastically nerf higher elos while SLIGHTLY buffing lower elos but like i said.. i cant figure out a way to do this and IF she is balanced around diamond or plat.. or ANY elo for that matter she CANNOT go above 53% or below 46% in ANY ELO, no exceptions this goes for any and EVERY champ. this is what i would call and acceptable range obviously i would LIKE to have her between 48% at 51% from bronze- challenger as , in a perfect world she would be flat 50% across the board

but the fact remains.. UNLESS the changes don't to her can KEEP her within the 46-53% range they CANNOT be done (or rather put her in the 53% range because she is already at 54)

Mimy1 votes

I started to pick up Nidalee as a support.. she's super fun!

I like to use laugh in cougar form... say "Nyaa~~~~~" and ask people to rub my belly.

Dominick Destine1 votes

She's completely broken.... overpowered as hell.

GULAG 4 U1 votes

You're telling me we should balance the game around the asshats and garbage like me and everybody in my Elo? No thanks

SwiftKitten881 votes

DOES ANYONE HERE READ????

[{quoted}](name=Dominick Destine,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=byKetpgL,comment-id=00030001,timestamp=2016-10-07T03:10:01.338+0000) You always balance games around the people that know how to play, not around people that don't.

{quoted}

You're telling me we should balance the game around the asshats and garbage like me and everybody in my Elo? No thanks

lets read...

{quoted} balance around diamond elo does NOT mean diamond elo is allowed to be balance and the hell with the other elos..

if diamond nid has a 50% win rate and bronze has a 34% win rate and silver has a 38% win rate and challenger has a 78% win rate.. THE CHAMP ISN'T BALANCED!!!

it doesn't freaking MATTER if she is balanced in diamond you balance her around ONLY diamond and say "to hell with everyone else"

when you balance a champ around a specific elo.. you ALSO need to keep SOME form of balance around the OTHER elo.

balanced around plat means the 50% should occur AT PLAT. NOT that every other elo can be in an absolute hell hole or be stupid OP as long as "plat" remains ok

LankPants1 votes

balanced around plat means the 50% should occur AT PLAT.

Balance isn't strongly correlated to winrates. There are champs who are flat out broken at a 50% WR and champs who would be utterly terrible, Lee Sin and Sona respectively would be the best examples.

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