Boards›Gameplay

Doran's Blade should have 5% life steal for melee champs

FalconPawwwwnch··161 votes·6,820 views

Before, Doran's blade used to have 5 life on hit for melee champs, and 3 life on hit for ranged champs.

When Riot changed doran's blade to give 3% lifesteal, this wasn't a big deal for ADCs because they would even out at 100 AD

However, melee champions wouldn't even out until 166 AD, making doran's blade pretty worthless early game for melee champions compared to what it used to do. And remember, life on hit bypasses armor, so it's only 166 AD against a target with ZERO armor. This was a massive nerf to melee dps top lane and Riot never addressed this. Every single melee champ that would start with doran's blade was nerfed very hard and no explanation or compensation was made.

Basically means that AD champs cant really compete with tanks in lane right now because doran's shield is far superior, unless you have stupid mechanics and lane power like Irelia and Riven. Doran's blade is currently the weakest of the 3 doran's items by quite a margin; long sword outclasses blade by quite a margin

Also, at the people saying "don't buff all of the doran's blade users because you'll buff the ones that are already strong," nobody plays AD champs in competitive now unless you're Irelia. If champs like Irelia and Riven are too strong, then just nerf them individually afterwards. Most doran's blade users need a buff right now as is because people pretty much play nothing but tanks

132 Comments

LaserDeathBlade18 votes

Tryndamere Tryndamere Tryndamere Tryndamere Tryndamere Tryndamere Tryndamere

I am your worst nightmare

Penta Penguin10 votes

irelia building 7 Tryndamere's is pretty OP

DorkunedAuras1 votes

I laughed for 3 minutes at that, that is hilarious. I love you

Slamurai Jack15 votes

I can't remember the last time I saw someone start with Dorans shield.

ModWulf Helhammer1 votes

Errr, top lane tanks that are actually full tanks

Slamurai Jack9 votes

What full tank starts dorans shield? Sion Malphite Singed start item 2041 3item 2003 . Maokai Chogath start item 1056 2item 2003 . DrMundo Nasus Gnar start item 1029 5item 2003

The only real tank champion that starts item 1054 is Shen, and other options are still often better.

LICENSED HOOKER2 votes

Garen

Slamurai Jack11 votes

{quoted}

Garen

What kind of pussy ass Garen starts Dorans shield?

LICENSED HOOKER2 votes

The ones in ever single goddamn ranked game i play.. (ofcourse they're on my team and they suck..)

magic pole7 votes

real men start with sword

EzJyka7 votes

But if your a badass you start Sion with item 1056

Z Statistic1 votes

You get shield if you are facing an AA based champion. Like Vayne. It actually makes you VERY durable.

Slamurai Jack3 votes

I think you could have made that argument before TP was nearly mandatory in top lane. Shield does give you more defense and sustain over a longer period of time. But, with TP being an every game thing, it's almost always better to just start cloth 5 and then TP back to lane a while later with chain vest and a ruby crystal, or in the case of Nasus, a glacial shroud. Cloth 5 gives you good short term sustain and dorans shield gives good long term sustain, but long term sustain doesn't mean much when you can TP back to lane every 4 minutes.

Z Statistic1 votes

Doran's shield gives more effective armor than cloth http://puu.sh/5zjVe.jpg

Slamurai Jack3 votes

{quoted}

Doran's shield gives more effective armor than cloth http://puu.sh/5zjVe.jpg

Except you're not comparing dorans shield to cloth armor. Of course Dorans is better in that scenario. What you're really comparing is is Doran's shield and 1 health potion to Cloth armor and 5 health potions. And Cloth 5 gives a far great amount of effective health against AD champions except over a very long period of time, like 8+ minutes of laning. It's also more gold efficient since you can use the cloth armor to build into a better item wheras you're stuck with shield.

Z Statistic1 votes

edit: forgot to factor in armor from cloth. It's about 5 minutes and 30 seconds.

Assume we have 600 HP and 31 armor from runes and masteries. Then the EHP at lvl 1 with 5 red potions is 1768.5. Even if we assume the worst possible scenario of the enemy Vayne at lvl 1 having 100 AD, the effective armor increase is +42. So, the amount of time required to make Doran shield1 better than cloth5 is entirely based on the hps shield gives. So the equation can be found as such:

(680+1.2x+150)*1.73=1977

X is the amount of time needed for the regen to eclipse. The solution to this equation is 192 seconds.

So unless you expect to DIE in 3 minutes top lane vs a full AD Vayne, Doran's shield is 100% better than cloth five on most top laners because it gives so much effective armor than you don't need chain vest and instead can start building BoRK or Hydra or something more offensive oriented.

Slamurai Jack3 votes

I honestly have no idea where your numbers are coming from. The way I see it, you're comparing 2 seperate things; the value of 15 armor vs. 80 health and 8 less damage from autos and single target spells; and the 6 per 5 regen of shield to 4 health potions. From a purely sustain standpoint, 4 potions are worth 600 health, and 6 per 5 regen, or 1.2 per second is worth 600 health after 500 seconds, or 8 minutes and 20 seconds. From a pure sustain standpoint, it takes a very long time for shield to surpass what 4 potions would give you.

So from a pure sustain standpoint, cloth 5 is clearly superior to Shield except after a considerable amount of time. But how does the damage reduction between cloth armor and shield compare? Let's take your example of 600 hp and 31 armor. Now lets slap on a cloth armor and bring up up to 46 armor. 600 hp x 1.46 armor modifier = 876 effective health against physical damage without accounting for any sustain. Let's assume that the enemy Vayne walks into lane with a dorans and 77 AD. It will take her 12 auto attacks to kill you assuming you just let her wail on you and she didnt use any abilites. Now lets compare it to dorans shield. 680 hp x 1.31 armor modifer = 891 effective health against physical damage without accounting for sustain. However, Dorans shield reduces auto damage by 8, so lets just say that Vayne's autos will do 69 damage instead of 77. With 891 effective health, it will take vayne almost exactly 13 auto attacks to kill you, so we'll go ahead and make it take 1 extra auto to account for shields sustain.

So 14 autos versus 12 is definitely in favor of shield in early fights. But how often do those 2 autos make a difference against a ranged champion in lane? Vayne isn't going to auto you 14 times in a row, she's going to pepper you with 1-2 autos at a time until you are low enough for her to zone you. And in that situation, the extra potions from a cloth start as always going to be worth more than the 6 per 5 regen of shield. I personally don't think dorans shield is a terrible start, but I do think that it is only worthwhile if you're running defensive runes and masteries to better synergize with shields damage reduction passive. I would not recommend dorans shield on more offensively oriented champions like Garen, Riven, or Jax; other options are simply better. But if you want to run a ton of armor runes on Nasus with 21 defensive masteries, feel free to rock that dorans shield. I still think that starting cloth 5 so you can get glacial shroud earlier is probably better in most cases, but shield can definitely work if you feel you can avoid getting low enough to be zoned early in lane. One champion that I think does particularly well with shield is Shen, the damage reduction combined with his own sustain and harass can make it very easy to slowly push less sustain oriented champions out of lane. Generally speaking, that is the kind of champion I like to get Dorans on, whether it be shield or blade. Alot of arguments are made for the superiority of longsword 3 pot over dorans blade 1 pot, but I think Dorans blade is better if you can realistically wear through enemy sustain and then force them out of lane with your now effectively free lifesteal.

DJ Di015 votes

Irelia item 2041 item 1055 item 1075 Never leave lane.

Z Statistic8 votes

Well, 5 LoH was pretty strong anyway. I think we want to avoid edge cases like Fiora and Trundle where the amount of healing they already have is around the amount to keep them in lane conservatively. Buffing doran's to 5% may be enough to make them be able to ignore any and all harass and easily dominate trades.

3tyson7 votes

{quoted}

Well, 5 LoH was pretty strong anyway. I think we want to avoid edge cases like Fiora and Trundle where the amount of healing they already have is around the amount to keep them in lane conservatively. Buffing doran's to 5% may be enough to make them be able to ignore any and all harass and easily dominate trades.

Fiora Irelia Trundle Ekko Poppy Riven are all verry up right now and deserve some sort of buff

i think the best buff would be if riot programmed a machine gun they could maybe use so they can roll all over squeeshy range champs even more

Lugg8 votes

You have to be kidding. Irelia and Riven are OP as hell right now. They are both God tier right now.

Terff12 votes

I think it was sarcasm

3tyson2 votes

{quoted}

You have to be kidding. Irelia and Riven are OP as hell right now. They are both God tier right now.

yeh but they stil dont have anny range do they :P

Lugg4 votes

They have high mobility and range on their ults. Plus they both are tanky as hell in fights.

Zedex5 votes

Riven is not "Tanky as hell in fights"

And if she is she's not going to be doing her required amount of damage to delete your carry.

xXMorshuXx6 votes

shields4dayz?

Zedex3 votes

Which scales on her AD..Which she stacks with very little defenses. If shes outplaying you and shielding your abilities to the point where you feel useless (or in your case, you feel its her being op), maybe you should rethink your strategy. Riven has a shield for that very reason. If she didn't have it she would melt even more in teamfights when properly focused.

MarhsallLee672 votes

tfw Riven's cooldowns are literally nothing, and by the time you break through her shield she has it up again, along with all her other abilities.

HAIL WHYDRA27 votes

Ekko Buff

mfw

3tyson2 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Giratina,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bwikknfN,comment-id=000200000001,timestamp=2015-06-09T18:39:25.977+0000)

mfw

yeh he needs something extra i once went on shaco got my red while mid lane ekko vs ekko was stil level 1

i went invisible behind him placed a jack in the box crit him ( he was stil level 1 )

my ekko was under turret i thoug he was baiting but aperently he was afk so when i saw that and noticed i didnt kill him that easily i tried to get away

at level 1 he killed me while i had the first hit and red buff ( without anny chance of me ascaping )

i have no clue how this champ works so i dont really know what he did do but it seems pretty up

Aych Pii7 votes

Ekko will absolutely destroy you if you don't know how he works, it's practically what he's designed to do.

PokladnicaZla1 votes

They need to be careful about this change.Yes,it would give melee top laners a chance vs ranged oones,but it would also buff melee assassins ion mid lane.

So direct buff to melee tops= indirect buffs to melee assassins on mid.

Dreadlocks6 votes

Rengar item 1055 item 1055 item 1055 item 1055

BRING IT BACK@!! lol

theragingnerd4 votes

{quoted}

Rengar item 1055 item 1055 item 1055 item 1055

BRING IT BACK@!! lol

LATE MID GAME BUILD

DropFill5 votes

I hope they see this.

Hyrum Graff4 votes

On one hand I agree with you.

On the other, Why not try to make ranged vs melee interaction more interesting? Instead of just flat-out giving melee champs better stats (or in this case, better itemization), how about we try to make interesting kits that can compete with ranged in its own right. And if melee champs are weak because doran's does the same thing for them as for ranged, buff the particular champs that are weak instead.

FalconPawwwwnch9 votes

Ranged champions don't interact with you though

They spam no counterplay targetted skills and autoattacks to poke you

Until all of their damage is avoidable the only things melee can do is out stat them. You can't expect melees to play fair when ranged champions have unavoidable damage and disengages

Hyrum Graff2 votes

{quoted}

Ranged champions don't interact with you though

They spam no counterplay targetted skills and autoattacks to poke you

Until all of their damage is avoidable the only things melee can do is out stat them. You can't expect melees to play fair when ranged champions have unavoidable damage and disengages

We have yasuo. A recharging shield to mitigate poke, a wind wall to block incoming damage, dashes to gapclose, disengage, and avoid any skillshot. And yes he has the double crit passive to out-stat, but that doesn't really matter until laning phase is over or almost over.

An ability like Rammus' W creates interesting interactions where for a period of time, ranged laners don't really want to autoattack you (if rammus were played in lane)

Even if you disagree with me about that, my position is still, "Oh, Fiora, trynd, renek, shyv, are all weaker than ranged top laners because dorans doesn't work as well on them? Let's buff those melee top laners' abilities, instead of buffing the item.

Critmaster Garen10 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hyrum Graff,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bwikknfN,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2015-06-09T18:40:04.684+0000)

On one hand I agree with you.

On the other, Why not try to make ranged vs melee interaction more interesting? Instead of just flat-out giving melee champs better stats (or in this case, better itemization), how about we try to make interesting kits that can compete with ranged in its own right. And if melee champs are weak because doran's does the same thing for them as for ranged, buff the particular champs that are weak instead.

we already did that Yasuo

youve seen the nerd rage of adc mains when there is 1 melee champion whos actually built to fight ranged auto attacks and poke.

by the way, i rarely see either doran shield or dorans blade top lane. its either a full inventory of potions (with flask), longsword and 3 pots, or cloth + 5 pots.

Mandang05 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bwikknfN,comment-id=00060001,timestamp=2015-06-09T19:03:39.905+0000)

youve seen the nerd rage of adc mains when there is 1 melee champion whos actually built to fight ranged auto attacks and poke.

Braum does that, and no one complains about Braum.

The problem with Yasuo is that he's a hyper-scaling highly-mobile AD carry that for some reason was given CC and a support skill in windwall.

Critmaster Garen5 votes

{quoted}

Braum does that, and no one complains about Braum.

The problem with Yasuo is that he's a hyper-scaling highly-mobile AD carry that for some reason was given CC and a support skill in windwall.

its not a support ability.

both his shield and his windwall are designed to help him fight ranged champions. hes a melee carry designed with the abilities to fight ranged champions. his knockup is very conditional.

you will rarely find someone playing a melee complain about yasuo. his windwall is mostly useless against other melees and they usually can keep up in a a direct fight against him.

the reason why ranged ad mains arent complaining about braum is, because he cant fight back on his own. its still easy for them to 1v1 him.

Mandang07 votes

Just because it's intended to work against ranged champions doesn't mean it's not a support ability.

Also, ofc melees don't complain about Yasuo, windwall doesn't work against them. That's like saying Xerath doesn't complain about Janna - true, but completely pointless to note.

Braum is a support wielding a support skill, that's why ranged champions (not just ranged AD mains) aren't complaining about him. There's many more ranged champions in the game than just the ADCs...

Sire Hippington2 votes

There were quite some complains about braum after release, and he recived nerfs after that. also, things are a bit different, as barum himself isn't especially powerfull vs ranged on his own, but helps other champs alot vs ranged(but mostly he helps your ranged to stay save from enemie ranged while also peeling vs melees...)

Mandang03 votes

Well yea, he's a support using a support skill (a wall that deals no damage and can prevent damage to not only yourself, but also your allies). I don't think carries should be given that much utility, especially not carries who get multiple steroids. That's why I hate Yasuo's (and many of CertainlyT's champs') design, and I think it's much more fundamental than some concern over whether ADC mains can get solo'd by the champ in question.

Critmaster Garen5 votes

{quoted}

Well yea, he's a support using a support skill (a wall that deals no damage and can prevent damage to not only yourself, but also your allies). I don't think carries should be given that much utility, especially not carries who get multiple steroids. That's why I hate Yasuo's (and many of CertainlyT's champs') design, and I think it's much more fundamental than some concern over whether ADC mains can get solo'd by the champ in question.

yasuo is probably one of the best desinged champions in the game. which is pretty funny if you think that hes also a melee adc.

he has tons of outplay potential built into his kit, but everything is restricted and conditional. which gives you the ability to play around him if you pay attention.

his dash has a fixed range and is on a 10 second cooldown for a single target. it also needs an enemy unit in the first place to target. which means you can beat his mobility by proper positioning and can predict where hes moving, when you pay attention to what units he already used his dahs on.

his windwall is on an incredibly long cooldown. meaning the best time to engage on him is after you baited it out with a regular skillshot for example. (or you just dont give a shit, because youre garen and windwall has 0 effect on you)

his knockup can be dodged, and is only available at every third strike. which again, makes the best time to trade with him after you just evaded it.

his ult is reliant on his knockup. the only problem that might exist with the abiliy is champion interaction. but even then, there is a delay attached to it, making it interruptable even if someone hits you with it. i think even cleanse abilities can break it.

the great thing about yasuo is, that hes probably the only melee adc in this game whos on equal footing with ranged adc.

yes, he deals a ton of damage. but he is an adc, and doing so with him is actually much harder than it is to do with a ranged adc.

Mandang02 votes

Don't confuse number of things in a champion's kit or how many things a champion can excel at with good design.

Also, is your question actually about design, or is it about whether ranged ADC is OP? The latter's been beaten to death already, and discussing it here is just gonna be a circlejerk. A question of actual design is much more interesting: whether a steroid that scales by itself (double crit) is healthy or just leads to extreme feast/famine, whether the game is better w/ generalist champions or specialists, whether adding passives on every single skill makes the game more enjoyable (not just CertainlyT, but a recent trend), etc. I think Yasuo's design fails on each of those points, which is why I consider him one of the worst-designed champions in the game.

Critmaster Garen3 votes

{quoted}

Don't confuse number of things in a champion's kit or how many things a champion can excel at with good design.

Also, is your question actually about design, or is it about whether ranged ADC is OP? The latter's been beaten to death already, and discussing it here is just gonna be a circlejerk. A question of actual design is much more interesting: whether a steroid that scales by itself (double crit) is healthy or just leads to extreme feast/famine, whether the game is better w/ generalist champions or specialists, whether adding passives on every single skill makes the game more enjoyable (not just CertainlyT, but a recent trend), etc. I think Yasuo's design fails on each of those points, which is why I consider him one of the worst-designed champions in the game.

im not confusing anything.

im saying hes well designed, because his abilities have counterplay, even though it requires more of an attention span than the average silver can bring up. while it gives him a very consistent set of skills, that allows a well played yasuo to effectively carry.

there are seriously a lot of people in this game, who arent even paying attention to ability scalings or read tooltips of the champions theyre playing.

not to mention they take the time and attention to learn their opponents kits and their weaknesses. to understand how to counterplay yasuo, you need to put a little bit thought into it. of course thats too much to ask for half the player base, and they just blindly hate on the champion.

Hyrum Graff2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bwikknfN,comment-id=000600010001000100000000,timestamp=2015-06-09T19:53:25.886+0000)

his dash has a fixed range and is on a 10 second cooldown for a single target. it also needs an enemy unit in the first place to target. which means you can beat his mobility by proper positioning and can predict where hes moving, when you pay attention to what units he already used his dahs on.

Except that his MS after he builds shiv is so damn high he just runs me down anyway.

Hyrum Graff2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bwikknfN,comment-id=00060001,timestamp=2015-06-09T19:03:39.905+0000)

we already did that Yasuo

youve seen the nerd rage of adc mains when there is 1 melee champion whos actually built to fight ranged auto attacks and poke.

As someone who plays primarily mages, who hates playing against yasuo, it's mostly because he can reactively block my abilities with wind wall. I want to see yasuo use wind wall more strategically: "Hey, I want to go cs so I'm gonna wind wall so I can do it safely." as opposed to "Oh no, Veigar used his ult, I'm going to di- NOPE!"

by the way, i rarely see either doran shield or dorans blade top lane. its either a full inventory of potions (with flask), longsword and 3 pots, or cloth + 5 pots.

Ugh. I dislike literally every champion who starts flask.

ChloeBot2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hyrum Graff,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bwikknfN,comment-id=000600010004,timestamp=2015-06-10T14:23:22.582+0000)

As someone who plays primarily mages, who hates playing against yasuo, it's mostly because he can reactively block my abilities with wind wall. I want to see yasuo use wind wall more strategically: "Hey, I want to go cs so I'm gonna wind wall so I can do it safely." as opposed to "Oh no, Veigar used his ult, I'm going to di- NOPE!"

That's honestly how I use his wind wall most of the time. And I play and build him quite a bit differently than most people and build quite a bit of lifesteal early on. I know that even if an ability hits me while my wall is on cooldown, I can dash out of range, recharge my shield, and lifesteal the health I lost back. Then after that, just all in, cause I'm that kind of person. EDIT: And to add to the wall part, I once had to play against a duo top while playing with some low level friends and had no choice but to use my wall when I wanted to get some cs. Tristana+Teemo combo too much xD

More from Gameplay

3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay764 comments
7,167
votes
3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay156 comments
3,510
votes
UPVOTE FOR URF
Gameplay606 comments
2,440
votes
Yes plz.
Gameplay456 comments
1,721
votes
3 Refunds per season, up vote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay114 comments
1,716
votes
When is ANYONE at riot going to address the awful new player experience?
Gameplay634 comments
1,383
votes

More by FalconPawwwwnch

Instead of an ! icon for when an enemy Rengar ults just open up the shop automatically
Gameplay135 comments
315
votes
Can we change Veteran's Scars back to 3% max HP instead of the useless 45 HP
Gameplay142 comments
302
votes
The flat true damage on Vayne's W should be removed
Gameplay157 comments
275
votes
Graves is a better drain tank than Aatrox, Olaf, and Warwick
Gameplay128 comments
230
votes
If Nidalee and Elise got their melee bonus resists removed, Jayce doesn't need them either
Gameplay188 comments
215
votes
So over the last few years, Riot has been trying to give counterplay to all new champs and reworks
Gameplay179 comments
200
votes