You effectively forced nidalee and elise from toplane into the jungle because of playstyle

Death by Glamour·Jan 4, 2018·47 votes·3,677 views

So why has jayce been allowed to prosper?

If i remember correctly in a land which is now called season 3 elise top rose to prominence. The poke till your low then all in playstyle was a bit different to what we were used to. It was pretty quickly nerfed.

The exact same thimg happened with ap and oddly ad (because of her cat form scalings) nidalee. Again it only lasted at most 2 patches before nerfs.

Now we have jayce, similar playstyle who is no longer gaited by having to stack a tear of the goddess. He scales far harder than either of the two, elise fell into the role of an E bot bruiser and nidalee was a split pusher when they were both played top. But he is fine yet the other two were bad for the game.

Why?

62 Comments

OxyrottenJan 4, 201852 votes

As a toplaner I support this. Please remove jayce from toplane.

Death by GlamourJan 4, 201815 votes

Tbh he has his place in toplane but i do think he should be forced into building a tear again.

OxyrottenJan 4, 201814 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pink Leg Warmers,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=broA48M7,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2018-01-04T10:56:30.498+0000)

Tbh he has his place in toplane but i do think he should be forced into building a tear again.

No, make him go bot. He can't shit all over my champs bot.

Botlane as faaar away as possible.

SnugglePuggle94Jan 4, 20182 votes

Hell no. A champ like him does not belong bot.

LittleDemonTristJan 4, 20188 votes

They belong with the goat outside of the map, far from me

Auz the RipperJan 4, 20188 votes

Actually, with only a few modifications he could be a pretty interesting ADC.

junglerboy16Jan 4, 20182 votes

Anything that could make him playable as an ADC would make him even more hellish top lane though...

Auz the RipperJan 4, 20185 votes

Part of the modifications would definitely need to be a reduction in in his safety, both to “incentivize” him to actually go into bot lane and to stop him from being immortal with a support by his side.

FaustavianJan 5, 20181 votes

Rush manamune, run Aery + Scorch, build Lethality + item 3033

theminiomJan 5, 20181 votes

Actually, with only a few modifications he could be a pretty interesting ADC.

I recently purchased him and using practice mode i found he can reach over 5.00 attack speed with lethal tempo (pity it's just for 3 attacks) so you could in theory do quite a bit with crit and Blade of the ruined King of course i can't really test it in practice mode.

DrFiveMinusMinusJan 4, 20182 votes

{quoted}

No, make him go bot. He can't shit all over my champs bot.

Botlane as faaar away as possible.

What makes you think we botlaners want him?

OxyrottenJan 4, 20184 votes

{quoted}

What makes you think we botlaners want him?

He's an OP adc (hybrid). Botlaners love being OP. [slayer-jinx-wink]

SpecterVonBarenJan 5, 20182 votes

Not me, I just want to be as ignored as Top lane is now so I don't have to keep fighting 2v5's all the time.

SpecterVonBarenJan 5, 20182 votes

We don't want him either, buzz off. Send him mid.

OxyrottenJan 5, 20182 votes

{quoted}

We don't want him either, buzz off. Send him mid.

You know honestly with his range and burst potential (plus building ad) that's not a terrible idea.

Besides then the jayce scripters will fit right in with all the xerath and ap kog scripters, they could start a club!

CatastrophicJan 5, 20182 votes

No one plays Jayce top ??

OH WAIT that's cause I ban him every game

Sire HippingtonJan 4, 201813 votes

Yea, it feels quite wierd that some some champs have been removed from sololanes becuase they weren't enojoyable to play agqainst, yet there are still many champs that are just as bad if not worse. Jayce certainly is one of them but not the only. gnar is just as annoying to deal with, and Quinn is pure cancer, same with malz...Prettymuch all ranged toplaners with solid disengage and/or all-in are completely toxic to deal with for most toplaners and in no way different from nida or elise when it comes to that.

Troll for TrumpJan 4, 20189 votes

....

Vayne top.

You can't outrun her, you struggle with CS, you struggle with engaging on her, you can't really itemize well, and it's just impossible to win alone.

The only way is with jgl help.

Rogueish3Jan 5, 20181 votes

I know she's super irrelevant but Irelia . In my opinion, she has some of the best engage with q to an enemy ranged minion and if you don't use the reset to damage the ranged champ you can just ew burst with the stun and q away to a low health melee minion to safety.

LakegaJan 4, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sire Hippington,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=broA48M7,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-01-04T14:11:12.963+0000)

Yea, it feels quite wierd that some some champs have been removed from sololanes becuase they weren't enojoyable to play agqainst, yet there are still many champs that are just as bad if not worse. Jayce certainly is one of them but not the only. gnar is just as annoying to deal with, and Quinn is pure cancer, same with malz...Prettymuch all ranged toplaners with solid disengage and/or all-in are completely toxic to deal with for most toplaners and in no way different from nida or elise when it comes to that.

It's not even just that. Much of it has to do with just badly designed champions. Putting other lanes into this equation of "poke easily until low, then all in for free kill". You have crap like Talon, Zed, Yasuo in mid lane as well. You have Zoe for free long range pokes from off screen. Champs that can zone you with no effort like Urgot, Quinn top, and others. THen you got champs that straight up require you to need a jungler because that's their only real counterplay if the player knows how to use the champion, like Mundo, Swain, and others.

Just straight up stupid, bad champion designs.

LordGeovanniJan 5, 20181 votes

Gnar is only annoying to deal with because his anger bar stacks up far too slow

OxyrottenJan 5, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Gnar is only annoying to deal with because his anger bar stacks up far too slow

No, he is detracting from the game because he does absolutely nothing other than spam his boomerang.

3x per wave AT LEVEL 1 is a bit excessive, a 1.5 second cd (WITHOUT CDR) at level 5 even more excessive, add on hit damage proc's and a perma slow on top of a stupid missile speed? Yeah that sounds like a skill we should put on a manaless champ with no punishment for missing but every reward for hitting.

LordGeovanniJan 5, 20182 votes

I have complained about Gnar's q cooldown just because he catches it when it comes back to him from his release but even more so than that his w does far too much damage per instance. Faster Gnar bar stacking up would almost solve his q problem as it would require him to either shove into GNAR or give up farm to stay as Gnar

OxyrottenJan 5, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I have complained about Gnar's q cooldown just because he catches it when it comes back to him from his release but even more so than that his w does far too much damage per instance. Faster Gnar bar stacking up would almost solve his q problem as it would require him to either shove into GNAR or give up farm to stay as Gnar

Personally I think his transform mechanic should be (somewhat) more random. This would raise the skill necessary to utilize his GNAR form and make it necessary to use his GNAR form properly.

But I have a bias against gnar, so I don't know if that goes too far.

CppLJan 5, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sire Hippington,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=broA48M7,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-01-04T14:11:12.963+0000)

Yea, it feels quite wierd that some some champs have been removed from sololanes becuase they weren't enojoyable to play agqainst, yet there are still many champs that are just as bad if not worse. Jayce certainly is one of them but not the only. gnar is just as annoying to deal with, and Quinn is pure cancer, same with malz...Prettymuch all ranged toplaners with solid disengage and/or all-in are completely toxic to deal with for most toplaners and in no way different from nida or elise when it comes to that.

different balance team than in season 3.This balance team doesn't give a shit about Solo Q anymore.All they care is lcs flashy plays.

AuroramancerJan 4, 20188 votes

As a top lane main who mained the hell out of Elise before the mastery system was even introduced, Jayce is the exception to what Riot has done to on-demand form-shifting champions, and it's way too frustrating how Riot said "you're not allowed to viably play these champs in top lane, because they spam ranged abilities and then all-in with melee execution abilities. it's a toxic gameplay pattern", but they leave Jayce the way he is. Elise and Nidalee may have been considered "non-interactive", but any kind of interaction you would want with Jayce is entirely one-sided, because he has total agency over most of his matchups.

Yeah, I want Jayce gutted from the top lane, probably for vengeful reasons, and Riot will say "Just because we did this to Elise and Nidalee doesn't mean that is the appropriate solution for Jayce", well, you shouldn't have used that line of reasoning with Elise and Nidalee then...

Death by GlamourJan 4, 20181 votes

agreed, those two were complete bullshit to play against but atleast you could fight them on your own terms.

with jayce nope, he merely bats you away and proceeds to poke you down again

My Waifu VanillaJan 5, 20181 votes

I mean Nidalee just healed and kept poking you and Elise DID have hard CC and "unbiased" damage in the form of %health damage. Elise also build straight tank making her harder to all in than even jayce.

junglerboy16Jan 4, 20183 votes

Because Jayce doesn't have as much of a kit for ganking, he's got a kit for self peeling and staying at range.

Both Nidalee and Elise (the two champs you mentioned, and the two who are most similar to him) are designed to engage off of a ranged form and then leap/dive in to finish a kill. Their play style is predicated around keeping at range until they can finish you off in a killing combo. Jayce on the other hand, while having similar tools in his wheelhouse, is based more around poking you down and keeping you at range if you close on him.

Nidalee and Elise both have powerful executes and free targeted mobility to engage and disengage personally from a fight. Jayce, while having burst in melee form, only has a way in and a way to get you away from him, meaning he can't commit to more than a 1v1 unless the whole fight is already in his favor to clean up.

As far as pushing him into jungle (which I'd be interested to see actually) he'd need some form of built in sustain like Nid and Elise because right now all he has is damage.

Death by GlamourJan 4, 20182 votes

really?

you miss my point, they two were forced out because they were deemed either too strong or toxic yet they havent batted an eye at jayce despite having a very similar playstyle in lane. No im not talking about transformation as per say but the poke down all in style which all 3 were known for in the toplane

RogueWillJan 4, 20181 votes

His point is that if you move Jayce out of top he is left in the gutter because he doesn't have the tools to being succesful on the jungle (unlike nid and elise). If you move it out of top his only other option would be mid and for that he woudl need his current kit, there is no other lane to put him besides top (and maybe mid) and that is why he has different treatment.

Death by GlamourJan 4, 20183 votes

i wasnt asking for him to become a jungler like i said above force him into building a tear

General Esdeath Jan 6, 20181 votes

So Nidalee/Elise are supposed to use ranged poke then transform to melee and go in for the kill?

Gee, why does that sound familiar? OH WAIT. That's Jayce's basic combo. E Q with cannon form, W then ult to hammer form, Q onto them for % max HP damage, E them away, then run up while they're slowed, low on HP, have reduced armor/MR, and beat them to death with your increased attack speed and tank them with your bonus armor and MR from ulting.

junglerboy16Jan 6, 20181 votes

First of all, melee Q has no % HP damage, that's his E knock back. That's the reason his all-in kill potential is gimped unless he gets consistent poke (using E for the nuke is too risky in an all-in most of the early game because it knocks them away from his reliable damage). Melee Q also is not a guaranteed hit, it is unit targeted but after casting it switches to ground targeted (meaning you can juke out from the impact cuz his code is weird like that).

The difference is two fold: Jayce is the only AD one of the three (meaning he's effective just AAing for damage at range, unlike Nid or Elise), and the way they play out that poke>engage pattern is very different, for the reasons I mentioned. Nid and Elise both want to drop all their ranged stuff and then immediately go in during a gank, and they need to go in melee for any real impact since so much of their power is shifted to their melee forms (powerful executes and guaranteed damage as opposed to unreliable damage and utility in ranged). Jayce's issue is that too much of his strength is in his ranged form (EQ is too fast and has too broad of an AoE, even if he would whiff the shot it still explodes to clip enemies) and his melee form lacks the reliable burst of Nidalee's or Elise's. Together this encourages him to sit back as a ranged caster outside the rare opportunity to engage, much more like old ICBM Nidalee prior to her rework.

To fix Jayce they'll need to make his Q work like Karma's Q (only explodes in an AoE if it hits something with the initial skill shot), probably reduce the missile speed with and without his E, and then shift around the damage of his melee form to be a bit more encouraging of offensive play instead of being so defensive and safe.

General Esdeath Jan 6, 20181 votes

Or...hear me out on this...we make him need tear again like back in the day when he was relatively fine.

junglerboy16Jan 7, 20181 votes

First of all, these issues were still there when he used tear, it just meant his midgame slumped for no reason (there should never be a kit that scales strong early>weak mid>strong late, those have only ever been cancerous to the game). It also doesn't fix his problems, just masks them with an artificial crutch that goes away anytime something like manaflow band gets added.

Jayce needs systemic changes, not to be bound to a bad item for his balance. Tear needs to be removed from the game, it's passed its useful life and its archaic design holds no value in a modern version of League.

General Esdeath Jan 7, 20181 votes

It meant he was gated and had to make his few shots count.

If we remove tear I'm fine with a rework but for now I think it's better this way until a rework for Jayce can be done.

DNFVixenJan 4, 20183 votes

I miss nidalee's AD scalings, they ruined nidalee for me not to mention evelynn.

MetalGearTeemoJan 4, 20183 votes

Aoe faster flying Nid Spear.

This is all the problem right here. Acceleration gate should make it smaller and single target, the base version should be slow and wide and aoe.

NeidoxJan 4, 20183 votes

Also want to add Nidalee had bonus MR/Armor tied to her cat form and armor/mr shred in her traps. Both were removed because of her top playstyle. Jayce has both of these mechanics in his kit.

nice tableJan 4, 20182 votes

remove gnar and jayce from the game and i can play top lane again

Troll for TrumpJan 4, 20181 votes

Shyvana too.

Transform champs in general are hard to balance because 8 abilities.

Angry NeckbeardJan 5, 20183 votes

3 + 3 thats 8 quick mafs

Troll for TrumpJan 5, 20181 votes

Included passive and ult.

6 basic abilities mb

OxyrottenJan 5, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Angry Neckbeard,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=broA48M7,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2018-01-05T00:16:31.758+0000)

3 + 3 thats 8 quick mafs

I giggle'd

DurzakaJan 5, 20181 votes

Elise was fucking disgusting when she was allowed top lane because her Q was a point and click max hp magic nuke.

No comment on Nidalee tho.

BârdJan 5, 20181 votes

No, it's always been % current hp.

Akali is SO HOTJan 5, 20181 votes

Elise could go top and jungle and Elise top was aids to play against so they nerfed that and made her become a jungler. Nid couldn't really jungle all that well back in the day, but bruiser Nid top lane was op af so they nerfed that and made her a cancer spam spears 2 win mid laner. Then they reworked her into a jungler. Jayce has only ever been able to top and mid so they would have to completely rework him to make him go bot or jungle and just nerfing him wouldn't change the position he played in. I'm all for nerfing him tho.

WindLord7070Jan 23, 20181 votes

No this is in correct nidalee was pretty fucking op top for a short while after her rework but after that she was back to being in a pretty balanced state. And she actually could jungle very well before they gave her the change to make her passive work on jungle camps nidalee mains told riot it would break her and make her op in the jungle but they didn't listen.

WindLord7070Jan 23, 20181 votes

nidalee wasn't removed from top lane because of those nerfs though. She was removed from top lane due to failed attempts at making jungle nidalee weak. She was always decent top before then and was only kind of broken top for a very short while before she went back to just being decent/good in the right hands. Fuck jayce tho