Why are regeneration numbers on new Catalyst so low compared to sustain AD champions get?

Zero Skill Tank·Apr 14, 2016·7 votes·575 views

Title says it all, Catalyst as a laning item recieved huge nerf removing roughly half resources available for a mage during laning phase, while Eternity's late game scaling is so pathetic compared to lifesteal and Omnivore that it seems like it wasn't there i.e a Swain will heal for additional ~6 points each second while ulting, ramping up to crazy 25 HP points after only 10+ seconds of ulting non-stop. Meanwhile full combo of his basic abilities will heal him for ~50 HP at level 9. And no, it doesn't grant enough mana to sustain itself, one must suffer 1300+ damage to get this 50 of healing. This is all but "powerful engine".

With all new shiny stuff AD champs got like why are mages intended to be the only class to permanently resource-starve with almost 0 options to work around it with itemization?

19 Comments

AshenvallApr 14, 20165 votes

Because now it's "League of AD carry".

LaserDeathBladeApr 14, 20162 votes

Because it's easier to avoid damage on Mage

Also Rod of Ages isn't really comparable to a lifesteal item, it's closer to a Warmogs if anything.

Zero Skill TankApr 14, 20162 votes

No, for most battle mages like Swain or Ryze or Cho or Grag avoiding damage isn't at all easier than for marksmen. I anything it is much much harder.

LaserDeathBladeApr 17, 20161 votes

Yeah I forgot Swain Ryze Cho and Gragas have so much trouble sustaining....

Zero Skill TankApr 17, 20161 votes

They have others means for it, but still Eternity is useless compared to what an AD champion can get. Many AD champions have powerful healing mechanics and they still have full access to RHydra or Death's Dance if they wished to extend their healing further, and they use this option.

Also big part of why they have no trouble sustaining in lane phase is exactly Valor's Reward - Swain or Ryze can not heal from ult if they lack mana for it, and they just got 800-1000 of laning phase mana taken away from them. If you stayed in lane for say 5 levels - not an unlikely occurrence - Valor's Reward could make up to half of your mana.

LaserDeathBladeApr 17, 20161 votes

Champs like Swain/Vlad/Ryze or whatever are the exact reason why Spell Vamp is weak

Maybe it would make sense for mid-range non-burst mages like Azir or something to have some Spell Vamp, but the other mage archetypes either abuse it or don't need it.

Zero Skill TankApr 18, 20161 votes

Removal of spellvamp has nothing to do with replacing Valor's Reward with incredibly weak Eternity.

3TWarriorApr 16, 20161 votes

most mages are actually the first to take damage because they are high priority targets and now few have a range over 1100(lux, twisted, anivia, and i don't remember atm who else)

LaserDeathBladeApr 17, 20161 votes

I don't know how you play your mages but usually I let my front line do the tanking

dunkeroniApr 14, 20162 votes

Because item 3303 is going to be the new Mid Laner goto item since it still has actual mana regen (removed from most other items).

That is, it will be the goto item until it gets nerfed (AGAIN) causing supports to wither away forevermore.

Zero Skill TankApr 14, 20161 votes

This likely will happen, yes. If mages are going to be at all playable after those changes, spooky seems far better option than GLP. Yes it is weaker, but gold advantage(800+anything from passive) should make up for it.

NekusenApr 15, 20162 votes

The main problem with the new item 3010 is it's regen is WAAAY worse than the current one during lane, it only had the potential to reach the same numbers or be worthy late game if you are playing a tanky mage, which conflicts to the fact item 3027 is an item you need to rush. So you are kinda forced to buy the item in the moment of the game it's worse.

They could at least change the regen from 15% -->20% And increase the top HP you can get with your level (max 30-100 hp per cast depending on level)

Zero Skill TankApr 16, 20161 votes

Secondary problem is how regen stays pathetic even in lategame.

NekusenApr 16, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Secondary problem is how regen stays pathetic even in lategame.

yes, to most champs, and also, in the scenarios in which you could get enough damage done to you to get bursts of mana, you won't get enough time to spend it, and as the HP you can get from mana spent has a top of 25 hp per cast, even if you could expend mana that fast, it would give negligible hp, so not even good on tanks.

so i think they should make item 3010 cheaper and item 3027 even cheaper

CrimsonCobra3Apr 14, 20161 votes

I don't agree with your conclusion, but I will say that it is sad that there is no really good spell-vamp, nor many mages who could effectively make use of it. There are many, many options for lifesteal, but very few for spellvamp. My guess is that this is to keep mages in a 'nuke and run' role instead of sustained damage. Mages with sustained damage get it from their kit, and have less problems with mana or health due to it. (Swain: health, Aurelion Sol: mana, Teemo: mana, etc.) Some mages don't even need mana. (Katarina.)

NilokApr 14, 20162 votes

They are removing spell vamp on items from the game entirely.

CrimsonCobra3Apr 15, 20161 votes

{quoted}

They are removing spell vamp on items from the game entirely.

I've heard they recanted that change. But I'm not sure where that information was released, so I can't hold to it's validity.

5050BSApr 18, 20161 votes

Spell Vamp always was crap comparted to AD LS.

LD stacks, scales with more AD, Scales with Attack Speed

Catalyst is Honorable and I mean worse then stacking HP

Most mages have 4-12s CD on spells qwe all have <100 mana costs

That means they heal for < 25 hps every cast (you need costs to be 170+ to hit the 25 cap)

For a spammy champ say Karthus (one of the spammyiest) He heals for 9 a cast with 45% he spams Q every .55s so be CAN heal 18 hp/s

Then look at a AD champ with ONE 12% LS item at 200 AD = 24 hp every auto attack...... Not counting crits or ANY bonus damage from abilities.

alfavhunterApr 18, 20161 votes

How the item should scale

Your change the return rate to scale with missing mana / hp

Example per 1% missing mana taking damage restores 1% more mana

So taking damage at 50% Mana causes you to gain mana at 65% of the damage taken

Casting a spell at 50% HP causes you to be healed for 65% of the mana cost (no cap)

This would make the item worth it without being overbearing because it's still a net loss and only gains power when lower on mana / hp causing a risk to reward scenario