Daily reminder that Ranged AD+ Support has been the duo lane meta since 2011

FalconPawwwwnch··65 votes·4,259 views

While every other lane has had multiple meta shifts

118 Comments

Sightless6633 votes

There isn't a much better way to run things. You need a support just because of the lack of farmable lanes, you need an ADC because no other class can push reliably, and the ADC and support work best together because the ADC isn't level dependent and generally makes for a poor roamer or ganker (making them poor fits for top or mid). You get meta shifts in the specific champions used for those roles.

Biffolo19 votes

Because a solid healthy meta staying around is a bad thing?

FalconPawwwwnch22 votes

Explain to me what's healthy about unavoidable, costless, no cooldown, 600 ranged nukes that can hit nearly 1000 damage, while also healing the caster and also potentially permaslowing the one being attacked

Crett14 votes

{quoted}

Explain to me what's healthy about unavoidable, costless, no cooldown, 600 ranged nukes that can hit nearly 1000 damage, while also healing the caster and also potentially permaslowing the one being attacked

That's late game and that's their point. There are a number of potential answers. 100-0 them with a burst mage, CC/lock them down or otherwise invalidate their damage with exhaust/zilean ult/shields/thornmail It's the late game dilemma and it's a lot less of an issue to deal with until late game.

A Miss Fortune23 votes

As a Miss Fortune main I can tell you that while ADCs can instantly kill you late game, any burst mage will kill us faster. If we get stunned in a teamfight we're pretty much dead instantly since everyone usually focuses us like crazy late game.

ADC is a really high risk high reward role and every ADC is the exact same. Even Caitlyn because of how squishy and how she barely has an escape.

Personally as someone who mains a really off meta ADC I find Miss Fortune to be one of the strongest if not the strongest early game champions due to her having more damage than every other ADC at least from levels 1 to 3, so I abuse that and go like 10/0 and start hyper carry mode. Despite me later in the game going 20/0 WITH A PENTA I still have to be extremely careful because literally anyone on the enemy team can kill me if I'm caught off guard.

No matter what part of the game pretty much any ADC is easy to burst down.

DeusVult4 votes

So, what you are saying is that while you can go 20/0 you still have to watch positioning because a group of coordinated enemies can still kill you if you go rambo, but if you kite and have peels, then you will be able to win the game?

Oh, the horrors

AbodyHUN6667 votes

Not just that, MF's damage really falls off lategame because of the lack of real steroid and she's got the weakest self peel of all the adcs. A boots of mobility passive and a weak slow isn't really helping when someone is in your face.

A Miss Fortune1 votes

That is true, MF out damages every ADC from level 1 - 3 due to her W passive giving more damage and her Q does damage on top of resetting auto attacks, plus her E damage can really hurt early in the game if you stay in it too long.

However she is one of the ADCs who kinda doesn't shine so greatly into a hyper carry mode late game just due to how broken that would be for her to be exceptionally strong no matter the phase of the game.

AbodyHUN6661 votes

Yeah you are totally right. I kinda miss her old ult, it did a lot more damage, the current one feels a bit lackluster especially because stacking your passive on every member on the enemy team is a bit pointless. Gotta love the heal reduction on W, I just love duelling the enemy lategame carry with it.

YOU BEEN WARNED1 votes

65% 3s slow

weak

k

IcyPepper4 votes

I don't think that's the point.

There is never ONE perfect meta, and that's been exemplified by the other two lanes and the jungle. And even if it was...

It's boring. It's like why some people just don't like Lee Sin, due to being the number one picked jungler even right now with tanks on the rise. Having the same thing over and over...

Meta shifts aren't just about balance, it's to avoid complacent gaming syndrome. We're bored in the bot lane being the same over and over.

Occams Raiser2 votes

Are you saying there is no best team comp or meta? There is an optimal meta. There is no perfect team comp. I just want to understand you. The meta isn't arbitrary.

Biffolo4 votes

{quoted}

I don't think that's the point.

There is never ONE perfect meta, and that's been exemplified by the other two lanes and the jungle. And even if it was...

It's boring. It's like why some people just don't like Lee Sin, due to being the number one picked jungler even right now with tanks on the rise. Having the same thing over and over...

Meta shifts aren't just about balance, it's to avoid complacent gaming syndrome. We're bored in the bot lane being the same over and over.

Sorry to inform you, but the most effective strategies aren't generally the most fun in anything. If you want to win, you need to be willing to sacrifice a bit of fun. That is just the way tryharding works. If you want to play some melee ad bot, do it. But don't cry when you get trashed if you face anyone who has a clue what to do against it.

OyddAWqJ5r6 votes

It doesn't need to. It literally is the meta that meta's are based around. Whatever is most effective at shutting a team down (which usually involves invalidating the enemy ADC) becomes the meta.

Assassin meta - kill the ADC Tank meta - tank all the ADC's damage Fighter meta - break through enemy ranks and dunk on the ADC Splitpush meta - don't even have to involve yourself with that pesky ADC in teamfights Poke meta - force the ADC out of range

And I really don't think that needs to change. I do like that looking at this list almost all of those strategies (previous meta's) are now all almost equally viable. Cooleo, though tank is starting to outshine the others... Cinderhulk >:|

Heckin Support6 votes

I want it to shift to support and mage. Or support and bruiser. Or the support roams with the jungler. Change it nice.

Big Bang Bob5 votes

There are three AP's I could imagine replacing the adc, and I'm not sure how any of these would actually work.

Cassiopeia Teemo Azir

Few people ever even consider melee adc's, and riot doesn't seem to have any intent on shifting the bot lane meta, so this will likely remain an issue for some time.

Risurin3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Bang Bob,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bjj1E1wR,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-04-19T06:17:32.076+0000)

There are three AP's I could imagine replacing the adc, and I'm not sure how any of these would actually work.

Cassiopeia Teemo Azir

Few people ever even consider melee adc's, and riot doesn't seem to have any intent on shifting the bot lane meta, so this will likely remain an issue for some time.

Azir needs a lot of mana, Teemo if he is AP wont destroy turrets that fast, if ad he is just like an adc with not that great of a kit for that job. I'm not sure why you considered Cass as i dont think she has any structure destruction spells ?

The reason you dont see the melee carries bot too often, if at all, is because of Range advantage. Range allows you to destroy tower as well as a melee carry would, but from a safer distance, allowing you to siege the objective. Its not because ADC are overpowered, its simply because its the most efficient way to siege and destroy towers, and Summoner's Rift is won by destroying those structures.

Not sure how much you will like my example, but if you look at dominion for instance, ADCs arent as played, as much as in summoners rift, simply because there isnt structures to destroy (yes, there is still tower to capture, but thats not destruction, and your auto range doesnt give you any advantage on a context of tower capture)

pro crastinat0r5 votes

If you count lane swap in LCS you have had many different lane set ups

support "top laner" vs support adc, adc vs "top", "top" vs "top", adc support jungler vs support jungler "top", etc

Kouga4 votes

Carries have always been Carries - that is, they are vulnerable in the early game "You Carry Me..." and then ramp up to be the primary driving force in the late game "...And I'll Carry You" because ADCs provide sustained damage. Mages can deal more damage at once, but while on CD they tend to be useless, where an ADC has a constant damage output.

When considering their damage, though, you have to remember that most Champions naturally gain armor per level, but not all of them gain MR, and not at the same rate. And Armor / MR are not the same in terms of cost efficiency and itemization. And there are a lot of item tools to slow down an ADC (thornmail reflects damage, frozen heart slows their attack speed, randuins, etc) whereas there might be MR and spell shields, but there aren't items that "reflect % Magic Damage back to the caster" or "increases nearby enemy cooldowns"

Considering all of this - carries have almost always been "supported" in one way or another. Very early on, AD Mids were the meta but eventually they realized that it was more efficient to put them in a lane with a dedicated support - but the support would also take CS, because they needed farm too. So then Riot gave 'dedicated supports' ways of getting gold such as the GP5 items which eventually became the current Coin/Targan/Frost Queen items. At this point, it became more efficient to give the late-game carry all of the early-game farm, and the items and mechanics were built to reinforce this meta.

In the other lanes, however, since they are entirely solo they can more easily be influenced by changes in the items and jungle and even individual Champion strengths.

So the bot meta has stayed around so long because the game has grown up around it.

FalconPawwwwnch17 votes

If carries were vulnerable early game then they wouldn't be the best 2v2 lane in the game with a support

Name one lane that has the safety, early game power, and late game scaling that a ranged AD + support does

You can't, because ADCs are way to safe early game. They farm with no resource and can abuse innate sustain. Meanwhile melee autoattackers can bullied out of lane with no counterplay autoattacks and mages run need to build mana to farm and actually have to land skillshots.

Not to mention ranged ADs outscale everything in this game

doublelift fg4 votes

carries are bad in early game? try to outdamage a graves with any support who isn't thresh

PatMcGroyn4 votes

It's because having a ranged AD on your team is a necessity for single target DPS and objectives, and it's advantageous/ necessary to have a support to protect them and make sure they get farmed.

YOU BEEN WARNED8 votes

I'd rather see Malzahar Cassiopeia Urgot Karthus be the protected target.

The least to say is that they don't right click you for 700 damage.

ULTRAF0RCE3 votes

I think part of the problem is that it is really hard to make a good melee adc who also will be played bot lane, I think yasuo was designed to be an adc who was melee the only problem being that it was 1 very hard to balance him to counter ranged champions without being op against melee champions and 2 riot was unable to find a way to keep him from being more popular in mid and top where he could use the fact that his gap closer which was meant to help him be able to fight ranged adcs was great for avoiding skill shots and in top where he was just really mobile and could kind of just poke and had a shield which protected him a tiny bit when someone tried to go all in.

Bemapon3 votes

Played a game with my ranked team where I was planning to go Cass mid, but I was against an Orianna so my ADC Miss Fortune was like, "You go bot with Nami, I will mid." And we both completely destroyed our lanes.

If you want the meta to change then change it yourself. You don't have to follow it.

Feathermane2 votes

Mid lane had no meta shifts, it had an algorithm: Is Zed/Kha stupidly overpowered? If yes, call it the "assassin meta", if no, call it the mage meta. And toplane is constantly shifting between asshole bruisers and resourceless ranged twats, based on whether lane swaps are popular. No meta shift has occured in 3+ years.

Fashion Mage2 votes

Hmm, that's funny, I clearly remember mages being popular in bot lane. Oh well, guess it never happened.

JMCFTC3 votes

beta-2011

LordOfTheLeague1 votes

They released azir and remade cassiopeia as the 2 first Ap ranged dps but no one use them there. They have the potential to have high ranged dps, sustain and self peel (even escape and tower killing power for azir).

At least that wouldn't be ADC bot + support but carry (from any source) + support (there is already a lot of variety in support role with true supports, mage supports, tank and fighter supports).

They don't even support this possible Ap carry playstyle. This is what bothers me the most.

YOU BEEN WARNED8 votes

Because for an APC to succeed in botlane, they would have to worry about 4 things:

  • Scaling -> ADCs scale better later on, Riot needs to fix that. They should either be lane bullies or lategame carries, not both.

  • Synergy -> This is a new idea, most people have no idea what support would work with a Cassiopeia.

  • Reliability -> Karthus Cassiopeia and other possible mages' main damage source is skillshots, which is a fair way to play with/against because it has many restraints. ADCs on the other hand right click for high damage all game long; no need to worry about missing, cooldowns or mana.

  • Mobility Creep -> Self explanatory I hope.

LordOfTheLeague1 votes

I'm pretty sure cassiopeia scale better than almost all ADCs. Azir is too much reliant on his Soldiers positioning compared to ADCs and that's one thing that make me say that Riot doesn't support the playstyle (his soldier should have a lower cd and shouldn't cost that much mana too with some others changes). I don't consider karthus to be an APC that way. He is way too hard to play around his Q, and much more based around his wall, defile + ulti in my opinion.

The synergy shouldn't be too hard to find. You put someone with CC like annie or leona bot and it's a complete stomp bot lane, I tried with cassiopeia. I'm sure there is more that could work.

Reliability is probably the single reason why we won't see any of this champs bot lane in pro plays before any change.

Mobility creep is there but that won't stop a strong champ to shine.

FantasySniper1 votes

And this is problem, why?

Occams Raiser1 votes

The game is so narrow in how many effective strategies there are.

FantasySniper1 votes

One constant factor is not "narrow". One variable is. And there are several variables in the meta.

Occams Raiser1 votes

How many strategies are there?

Team comp: Meta Off Meta Counter Meta

Ingame: Lane to gank Team fight or Split push

What are some other variables? When and what to jungle? And.....

FantasySniper1 votes

How are you counting "meta" as a strategy? There's no depth to that classification whatsoever.

A strategy is actually something that has parts contributing to a whole, with tactics for team-team and team-enemy interactions, and adaptations for possible counter-measures.

Occams Raiser1 votes

Not the meta itself. The decision of a team to pick meta style standard champs that exemplify the roles of the meta or to pick outside of the box to counter those type of champs and not going standard laning is part of strategic decision making. I list them all as strategic variables.

There are few paths to greatness. imagine if it was viable to go thee in a lane because of a special type of champion that scaled off of low cost items and had extreme utility. The exp split would be off set by the fact that he could help bot destroy the turret faster than a free farming top could destroy top turret. It would make the top or jungle shift out of position and if the enemy picked a standard jg they would be left behind. Passive: Shadowed Apprentice: being in lane with allies does not diminish exp of other champs.

That champ and many other meta breaking champs don't exist so you never have to wonder. But that is why the game is simple at its base. It is easier to balance. And thus the nerf dance continues.

FantasySniper1 votes

Classifying strategy simply with the current "meta" is like classifying playstyles by "roles". The generic term is not the correct description for the subject at hand.

The method of role distribution for lanes is a result of map design. You would genuinely have to change the map's most basic design to make any sort of lasting impact on the lane distribution.

A champion "that scaled off of low-cost items and has extreme utility" is a support. The strategy you are describing is duo top, where they help each other and overpower the enemy until their turret is gone, then proceed to push further or gank other lanes and take more towers. This is generally not practiced after level ≈25 because a jungler is able to access the gold deposits that would otherwise be left sitting there, giving more gold to both champions and giving a strategic advantage of champions who use stealth to attack lanes. That passive would be horribly overpowered. A support could give the level advantage and there would be no stopping the enemy that has every stat advantage available. It doesn't exist for good reason.

Occams Raiser1 votes

The passive would be offset by low scaling Utility ratios. Think of an early nautilus with tiny hook that goes through minions and another utility to replace his shield. Here nor there. It was an example of a reality where you could afford to give a lane to snowball another.

If lane distribution isn't part of a meta that came about from randomness either one of us is using the term wrong or there are two ways to express it like the word theory being a scientific body of facts that expresses a model of understanding, or the layman's definition which is "a good Idea I am in the process of trying to prove."

In the beginning there was no meta. People went where they wanted and picked what class they wanted. I am taking this second hand. I didn't start playing till season 3. But most tell of an evolving meta brought about by the discovery of optimal team comps based on champ select, & lane and gold distribution. As with real evolution there are pressures that make things happen and entities change. Something that evolves due to an objective force is by definition NOT arbitrary.

But if I am using the term wrong, please explain what variables are strategic, meta, and those if any that overlap. We were diving into the narrowness of strategic game play. I seem to have the meta muddled with a variable set when you say it is not. You took the position that the game was more diverse than I thought.

FantasySniper1 votes

The passive would never be balanced. Even if the champion was a walking exp aura, they would be able to give an extreme advantage, making even all-mid a viable strategy just because there is no stopping their exp advantage. That's why anything related to exp is based off of your team's max level, so you don't blow over the whole system with free exp.

You have to actually label the strategy or meta, and not give the implication that they're all one and the same at a given point in time.

Many variables can be considered strategic. How much can your team poke? How much sustained damage do they have? How much CC do they have? What kind of CC? What's going to be your pattern of aggression? Will your team do better split-pushing or team fighting? Are you going to engage or is the enemy team going to? Who is going to need ganks? Who is going to get what buff? Finish it ASAP, or just late enough that you can finish with as much scaling as possible?

The meta will influence just how likely a strategy will be chosen, that does not mean that the other strategies do not exist, nor does it determine their viability.

Occams Raiser2 votes

I meant his passive would only keep him from stealing exp from lane mates as though he wasn't there. Good post. I get what you are trying to say now. See you on the Rift.

Hiemdol1 votes

I am not really sure what this post is about. While the sarcasm is evident, this post neither shows that the lack of a meta shift from ADCs bottom is bad and/or that it needs to change to keep the game interesting.

As others have pointed out the consistency of the AD carry meta is about objective taking, which is what really wins games. After all no matter what kind of plan you make ultimately it comes down to destroying the enemy nexus which is why having a dedicated champion in every game that can rapidly destroy structures late game will always be part of the meta.

YOU BEEN WARNED10 votes

Tryndamere Jax Nasus Excuse me ? They all take objectives.

Any champion in the game can take objectives. A item 3100 Sona can take towers as fast.

It doesn't have to be some lane bully with multiple escapes who scales into the strongest class late game.

SexyTaylorSwift2 votes

"A lich bane sona takes objectives as fast as an ADC"

K.

YOU BEEN WARNED11 votes

Crit and armor pen doesn't work on towers, yes.

SexyTaylorSwift2 votes

No, but AD and AS do.

doublelift fg3 votes

so does ap because AA on towers has an AP ratio and lich ban also proc

Abyssphere2 votes

{quoted}

"A lich bane sona takes objectives as fast as an ADC"

K.

I don't know why you're being downvoted. There are certain AP champs who can take towers very quickly but Sona really isn't one of them. A couple of Lich Bane procs and an empowered auto does not a dead tower make.

SexyTaylorSwift2 votes

Because the amount of votes you get here doesn't depend on what you say...it depends on who you say it too. You can obviously tell the audience here lol....

Ancestor0071 votes

Also, Udyr

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