So riot is nerfing the Jungle items.

DropFill·Nov 25, 2014·21 votes·5,132 views

Even though the only champion that is a issue with them is WW? Jungle is already impossible to do because you made the monsters godlike, and them you nerf the items to champions that were fine with it just because of ONE champion? Why not balance him in a way that he can't be abused with that item, leaving other champions alone? I know he was "balanced", but his kit is too old. Just balance him. I used to like jungle but nowadays seems pretty stupid, because the items are not even that strong, and the smite buffs are only good to jungle, because of the massive buffs you gave to monsters

73 Comments

XemeronNov 25, 20147 votes

Good, devourer is broken right now

DropFillNov 25, 201417 votes

Good, devourer is broken right now

Devourer is not broken. WW is broken with it.

opscommNov 25, 201411 votes

So, an item which grants 40 additional magic damage, as well as +50% attack speed, for a super low cost (2250), and it stacks super easily, is not broken. Right, let us compare that to the single closest item, which is wits end. It costs 2600 gold, adds 2 magic damage on hit, some mr, and steals mr per hit on one target. In my mind devourer needs a serious nerf, because attack speed junglers will just clear like crazy with it and get even more powerful.

DropFillNov 25, 20144 votes

So, an item which grants 40 additional magic damage, as well as +50% attack speed, for a super low cost (2250), and it stacks super easily, is not broken. Right, let us compare that to the single closest item, which is wits end. It costs 2600 gold, adds 2 magic damage on hit, some mr, and steals mr per hit on one target. In my mind devourer needs a serious nerf, because attack speed junglers will just clear like crazy with it and get even more powerful.

A item that grants NO sustain in a jungle where AS champions have a bad time early? ( Except Udyr and WW) Seriously, that items only gives AS and damage onhit. FF had sustain, AS,AD ( I don't remember, but i think it gave AD ), a ward with huge cast range. Seriously, is master yi op? Or Udyr? I only see people crying about WW because he has built in AS, sustain, and a non-counterplay gapcloser that makes you useless for 1.8sec.

NarasimhaNov 25, 20145 votes

The base jungling item gives sustain..

XemeronNov 25, 201417 votes

Good, devourer is broken right now

Devourer is not broken. WW is broken with it.

devourer is broken on ever farm jungler who has good Attack speed. Its basicly release feral flare without any build up time.

RevyUpNov 25, 20144 votes

Good, devourer is broken right now

Devourer is not broken. WW is broken with it.

devourer is broken on ever farm jungler who has good Attack speed. Its basicly release feral flare without any build up time.

And Riot didn't learn what had happened with feral flare? What were they thinking?

The5lackerNov 25, 20141 votes

"Well it doesn't grant super sustain anymore, what's the problem!?"

Trading AcesNov 26, 20143 votes

On a Farm Jungler, it's about 7 stacks higher than old Feral. So, no, it's not broken. This is balanced via slower and more difficult jungle clear and higher gold cost. In the old jung Devourer would have definitely been broken. Warwick does not suffer from the latter half and is uninhibited by the former after upgrading machete. This is why you think it's "broken". Did you guys even Jung farm last season?

NarasimhaNov 25, 20147 votes

That's... pretty fair, honestly. 40 damage to start on devourer's was a lot, even more than the old FF. And 6 second is a long time, thats a lot of hits for AS oriented characters. I literally saw a Xin do more true damage than a Darius in one game.

DropFillNov 25, 20143 votes

That's... pretty fair, honestly. 40 damage to start on devourer's was a lot, even more than the old FF. And 6 second is a long time, thats a lot of hits for AS oriented characters. I literally saw a Xin do more true damage than a Darius in one game.

6 seconds is a lot, I agree. But decreasing the time for like 3 seconds, to turn it more of a burst item, would be better than dealing true damage OVER 3 seconds. True damage over second is so bad ( SotEL showed us that ).

serpensortia1Nov 25, 20141 votes

Yes, but it only procs over 6 seconds, so the longest it could last is 9 seconds. If the damage isn't too high, it would be fine. That would allow you to get the full damage without having to have insane attack speed, just stick to the enemy and attack every 3 seconds.

Another option is to give it 3 stacks of true damage, so it can deal more than Stalker's, but then you have to be able to attack 3 times.

MatthevvNov 25, 20145 votes

People were taking smite and a jungle item top lane because the devourer item and smite was so ridiculous. The whole point of the preseason is that balance will be in major flux. Nothing is final until the season starts and even then changes can be made.

Raid Boss ShibaNov 25, 20141 votes

People were taking smite and a jungle item top lane because the devourer item and smite was so ridiculous. The whole point of the preseason is that balance will be in major flux. Nothing is final until the season starts and even then changes can be made.

Can't agree more. I tried Irelia top with blasting smite+devourer, proceeded to 1v3 in the end and still come out on top. While our jungler ended with probably 80 stacks, I also got 60 or so on devourer. It's just ridiculous.

GettotheChopperNov 25, 20144 votes

Devourer is REALLY broken right now

C9 Scott Free Nov 25, 20146 votes

the other problem is the other items kind of suck

DropFillNov 25, 201410 votes

the other problem is the other items kind of suck

^ This is so true. For example, morello's is WAY BETTER than the Magus enchantment, while being 50g cheaper. The only difference is that you can choose a smite with the item, but is not even that good anyways.

RaisuNov 25, 20144 votes

I'm a bit disappointed to see that Skirmisher and Devourer are being gutted this badly...

Skirmisher itself maybe needed a non-linear progression maybe taking 5-10 true damage off of the top levels of value while dropping the 20% Damage reduction to 10-15% as a first step to more carefully balancing.

Devourer similarly could have been dropped to just 30 instead of 25 while dropping the 50% attack speed to 40%.

Past that, I'll copy/paste my response regarding Warwick in a separate post.

RaisuNov 25, 20142 votes

On the subject of #2, with Warwick's synergy between Infinite Duress + Skirmisher's Saber + Devourer something I've mentioned in discussion with others was the possibility of tagging Warwick's ultimate with diminishing returns for On-Hit Damage effects.

ie: "On-hit effects deal 25% less damage with each swipe. (This effects all damage types)"

So that with say... Wit's End, Blade of the Ruined King, and Skirmisher with Devourer you do (These are Level 18 values):

Swipe 1: 69 True Damage, 82 Magic Damage, 8.0% Current HP Physical Damage (Current form is just this line x5) Swipe 2: 52 True Damage, 62 Magic Damage, 6.0% Current HP Physical Damage Swipe 3: 39 True Damage, 47 Magic Damage, 4.5% Current HP Physical Damage Swipe 4: 29 True Damage, 35 Magic Damage, 3.4% Current HP Physical Damage Swipe 5: 22 True Damage, 27 Magic Damage, 2.6% Current HP Physical Damage

Total: 211 True Damage, 253 Magic Damage, and *24.5% Current HP Physical Damage vs Total: 345 True Damage, 410 Magic Damage, and *40% Current HP Physical Damage

* Provided for comparison's sake although a bit inaccurate when not calculating what BotRK actually does at each swipe to a target.

Without nerfing how these on-hit effects act outside of Warwick's Infinite Durress.

HibekiNov 25, 20141 votes

Also, you need to keep in mind that it's not 40% current HP, it's a collateral of 8%.

Meaning if you start at 100, the first one is 8, then the next one is 7.36 and so on and so forth.

So it's not 40% it's actually about 34%

RaisuNov 26, 20141 votes

Hebiki, theres a reason the note:

Provided for comparison's sake although a bit inaccurate when not calculating what BotRK actually does at each swipe to a target.

Is there in the posting.

Also as i mentioned in a reply to another user, I've since made the following google doc spreadsheet that dissects just about every bit of Warwick's Ultimate for both the current form and my suggested Diminishing On-Hit Damage form

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1vj_Z-99t8JICyUzgmkNLgOYk2moI6yMAFmFcKlZowME

AONiCDqqHPNov 26, 20141 votes

Get the hell out of here with that BS go NERF YOUR OWN damn CHAMPS

RaisuNov 26, 20141 votes

I play Warwick both in top lane and in jungle, my suggestions were not made blindly.

In fact, what I proposed are much less heavy-handed than the nerfs that are currently on PBE.

A nerf that aims to turn Skirmisher's Saber into a mediocre version of Spirit of the Elder Lizard which everyone knows was rather crap except very few cases. This affects all champions that are AA / DPS oriented junglers, not just Warwick who is the only real abuse case for Skirmisher.

Why? Because Warwick is the only champion who can get guaranteed 5 attacks off on a long range gap closer in 1.8 seconds.

The biggest part is that HE DOES IT FOR FREE. NO ITEMS.

Other champions have to Buy/Build up to 2.5 Attack Speed to even try to match this and even then thats only 5 attacks in 2 seconds. Still slower than Warwick's attack rate from his ultimate.

SerBlaiseNov 25, 20141 votes

This is how you balance. I totally agree, although i think the issue is more with devourer then skirmishers. often times you don't get that many autos in during the planned time anyways. I think the damage reduction is the more important peice of skirmishers tbh; the on hit damage is usually just a little extra that might or might not get applied (unless you are ww with your ult). I'd prefer to nerf the onhit damage and keep the dmg reduction.

RaisuNov 25, 20141 votes

After I posted that yesterday in the Q&A thread, I had been working on a spreadsheet to sort of dissect Infinite Duress with certain on-hit effect items.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1vj_Z-99t8JICyUzgmkNLgOYk2moI6yMAFmFcKlZowME

This has both Current form and with the 25% Diminished On-Hit Damage per Swipe effect that i mentioned earlier.

RaisuNov 25, 20143 votes

Not alot...

7 health and 3 mana per second. That's maybe 5% of the damage you take in jungle?

AlljoyNov 25, 20142 votes

Nerfing them in what way?

DropFillNov 25, 20144 votes

Nerfing them in what way?

Reducing the initial magic on hit damage on devourer and this : Skirmisher's Sabre

Challenging Smite tooltip now reads "While Marked, basic attacks deal true damage over 3 seconds..."

Kuroi86Nov 25, 20144 votes

Reducing the initial magic on hit damage on devourer

Called it! xD

It's not surprising. It's still preseason, the items will be seeing a lot of tuning for the next month or two at least.

DropFillNov 25, 20142 votes

Reducing the initial magic on hit damage on devourer

Called it! xD

It's not surprising. It's still preseason, the items will be seeing a lot of tuning for the next month or two at least.

Yeah, I know, but jungle is kind of harsh to do nowadays, and riot nerf the items? Makes no sense

Kuroi86Nov 25, 20142 votes

Yeah, I know, but jungle is kind of harsh to do nowadays, and riot nerf the items? Makes no sense

It's still possible to get up to some great numbers on it. They just gave it too much initial damage for an item that doesn't even need to stack up any. It still helps clear times so for the carry jungle that needs to farm up, the change won't feel that drastic.

psyren124Nov 25, 20141 votes

Yeah this to me makes no sense they should not change the items they should just change how champs like WW and Udyr work they should not global people with one move(WW) or perma stun and attack so fast that you are dead in less than 3 sec(Udyr) Jungle is so hard cause of the buffs all the camps have that nerfing the items is prolly the last thing they should be doing.

serpensortia1Nov 26, 20141 votes

Jungle's hardest on first clear, and you don't get these items until a few minutes in. Doesn't make the start any harder, and afterwards it mostly affects ganks.

GoldenLeSpoinkNov 25, 20142 votes

I don't know what league game you are currently playing on, but right now that item is broken at the moment; and besides it was only that enchantment. Its not just WW that is overpowered with that item/smite; we have Skarner/Udyr/Xin/Fiora/Olaf/Tryndamere/Trundle/Yi are all broken beyond belief with one little enchantment that does not even cost that much. The only difference that WW has on all of these other champions, is that WW is a no-skill champion while the rest require some form of skill.

NinpireNov 25, 20141 votes

I've only been using nocturne in the new jungle but to be honest once you're a high enough level to get an enchantment there won't be much of a problem clearing the jungle. It's only really hard early on. Although I don't really like that my go to enchantment is getting nerfed XD

DropFillNov 25, 20141 votes

I've only been using nocturne in the new jungle but to be honest once you're a high enough level to get an enchantment there won't be much of a problem clearing the jungle. It's only really hard early on. Although I don't really like that my go to enchantment is getting nerfed XD

AS oriented champions should only have a hard time early. After though, is how squishy they are the problem and the lack of sustain on most of them

azrolatorNov 26, 20141 votes

If AS champions should have a hard time early, and later on they are squishy melees with no sustain or escape, then they lose their early game and already have a hard late game. When are they supposed to be useful? Jungle for 15-20 minutes then gank a few times and then go guard platform?

DropFillNov 26, 20141 votes

If AS champions should have a hard time early, and later on they are squishy melees with no sustain or escape, then they lose their early game and already have a hard late game. When are they supposed to be useful? Jungle for 15-20 minutes then gank a few times and then go guard platform?

Late game they should have at least one sustain item ( BoTRK or BT )

Colgate GatorNov 25, 20141 votes

What the hell are you talking about, initial 40 magic damage without stacking it is nuts, also, 6 seconds of true damage and reduced damage is a LONG time.

azrolatorNov 26, 20141 votes

I think you are wrong on the initial 40 magic damage being 'nuts'. Wits end gives better magic damage and also strips mr. And nobody has been bitching about Wits being nuts. So for close to the same price as the sabre you can buy a better weapon. To me I felt that the problem was the cap. Stacking wits and saber is nice, but same could be said for cleaver and ghost blade. I would rather see a cap on the saber instead of a beginning nerf or making it harder to build stacks. Riot said they wanted jungle diversity and I don't think clamping down on AS heroes does that.

L7xLoTekNov 26, 20141 votes

Ever heard of item 3091 :D

TheFallenShawNov 25, 20141 votes

I haven't heard anything about them nerfing the jungle items, but a simply fix would be just change it so that it did not affect ww's ult, or rather didnt have its on hit effect activate during ww's ult.

AONiCDqqHPNov 26, 20141 votes

Thats retarted. A simple fix is to fix the item not screw with warwicks abilies.

DandymannNov 25, 20141 votes

Honestly, dont nerf all of em. Just nerf the devourer. As someone who has been main-ing Warwick since 4.15 and played him single-handedly through flawless promos, starting with 40 stacks + Wit's end equals stupidly ridiculous ganks and still lets you keep the tanky you want. Toplane warrior buff Warwick is still tons of damage, even with the tankstats, but Warrior's stats and damage and the smite you can get from the new items is a BUNCH of damage early, but 45 attack damage plus the challenge smite doesn't really do much more than his ult normally does when he builds AD, so I don't have any huge complaints.

TL;DR: Devourer's starting forty stacks needs to be nerfed but Warrior's stats are just a new item for Wawick's who want to build AD instead of tank.

iainB85Nov 25, 20141 votes

These items needed to be nerfed, pure and simple. Warwick could abuse them the worst with the synergy of his ultimate, but they were broken no matter what.

THAT being said, S5 jungle needs to add back more natural sustain for killing camps, or deal less damage early on.... or there are going to be a very limited number of champions that can jungle without being at serious risk all the time.

Two separate issues friend, just looks like they are tackling one before the other.

RebonackNov 26, 20141 votes

I think blasting Devourer on top of the Skirmisher nerf is unneeded. Hit Skirmisher first and see how things stand. Devourer is not too powerful on its own. It's literally just Wit's End sans fifteen hundred gold worth of MR and MR shred. What it has going for it is the fact that it has a better buildup.

If Devourer is still too powerful, then drop its starting OnHit down to 20, double the amount you get from stacks, and hard-cap the damage at some reasonable value like 80.

SvddenlyNov 26, 20141 votes

Don't nerf the jungle items (the items themselves, not talking about the enchantments). They don't give any stats outside of the jungle. Kill me now.

Fury and EmperorNov 26, 20141 votes

Even though the only champion that is a issue with them is WW?

When Talon was OP because black cleaver was nuts, Riot balanced Talon with black cleaver, then nerfed black cleaver.

When Olaf was OP because health stacking was nuts, Riot olafed Olaf, then nerfed health stacking.

It is good to see that Riot is learning. This time instead of nerfing WW, Fiora and Yi, they're nerfing the problem item.

DropFillNov 26, 20141 votes

Even though the only champion that is a issue with them is WW?

When Talon was OP because black cleaver was nuts, Riot balanced Talon with black cleaver, then nerfed black cleaver.

When Olaf was OP because health stacking was nuts, Riot olafed Olaf, then nerfed health stacking.

It is good to see that Riot is learning. This time instead of nerfing WW, Fiora and Yi, they're nerfing the problem item.

Riot always do the same thing. Nerf both the champion and the item, making the champion nearly unviable until the meta changes in their favor ( sometimes, it takes such a long time...)

L7xLoTekNov 26, 20141 votes

Really pitiful sustain on the early levels when you'd actually need them, but sure.