Lets nerf Elise's move speed

Heckin Support·Jan 19, 2016·134 votes·4,289 views

I mean she does have a repel to dash to people, and it's not like she was slow enough in human form.

But Lee Sin? Nah he's fine.

96 Comments

UirayaJan 19, 201634 votes

Riot: "Why are they still picking non-Lee Sin junglers? When are they ever going to get the message?"

HighH1Jan 20, 201611 votes

Jax item 3931 item 3124 EXCUSE ME?

NegusInParisJan 20, 201622 votes

Don't worry, you're next.

MelledoneusJan 20, 20168 votes

"We're giving Jax a base 200 movement speed because we feel he is too mobile.

We're also feel Lee isn't doing his job as well as traditional junglers, so his E will now stun for 3 seconds.

allthemuslimsJan 20, 20161 votes

Will this be replacing my second cast slow or will this be on the first cast, so that I can still slow my target afterwards. My 5k dashes aren't enough, I need all the cc I can get

MelledoneusJan 20, 20162 votes

"Neither. We're adding this in both casts. Also, since you asked so nicely, we're adding a 8.9 AD ratio to his W AoE knock-up silence DoT debuff. We feel like this would add some utiLeety to his kit, as we feel he is lacking in the tools to make LCS players give up."

ParoeJan 19, 201622 votes

Elise is fine as she is, honestly. Riot doing their shitty compound nerfs (nerfing because of an item, then nerfing the item itself) is what makes champions unviable in the first place.

NegusInParisJan 20, 201625 votes

And their shitty "buffing Lee whenever he's not a top tier pick"

Dasdi96Jan 20, 201614 votes

Meanwhile Fiora has 345 movespeed, 2 second cd dashes, and freaking %max hp true damage.

blfUvZ8YbuJan 19, 20168 votes

Yes.He's fine.%53 win rate vs %46 win rate? Lee is weak late game but Elise isn't.

Hex the FenFenJan 19, 201626 votes

Everyone says that...but Lee does fine late game...If you get some good damage on him then go full tank even if he doesnt deal damage late game he makes a great tank and initiator. I mean, sure, it isn't the BEST late game but unlike some champions he DOES have a late game.

blfUvZ8YbuJan 19, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Drosera Eumelia,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bfHqKamT,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2016-01-19T19:59:42.819+0000)

Everyone says that...but Lee does fine late game...If you get some good damage on him then go full tank even if he doesnt deal damage late game he makes a great tank and initiator. I mean, sure, it isn't the BEST late game but unlike some champions he DOES have a late game.

Yes maybe Lee is strong now but Elise is so strong.Also Lee Sin popular pick since Season 3.Play rate only increased %3.

Hex the FenFenJan 19, 20168 votes

I haven't ever seen Lee be weak is the thing. Even when people said he was "weak" I still saw him dominate the jungle even in pro play. The thing is...Lee has been a constant in the jungle...the second Elise gets strong or starts to do well Riot tends to just nerf her. She might be strong but she is also really hard to play....

blfUvZ8YbuJan 19, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Drosera Eumelia,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bfHqKamT,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2016-01-19T21:08:51.312+0000)

I haven't ever seen Lee be weak is the thing. Even when people said he was "weak" I still saw him dominate the jungle even in pro play. The thing is...Lee has been a constant in the jungle...the second Elise gets strong or starts to do well Riot tends to just nerf her. She might be strong but she is also really hard to play....

Popularity.Not strong.Also a lot players like him.Because Lee sin has mobility and capacity of play make.

Hex the FenFenJan 19, 201610 votes

Except for the fact that he still did well. Yes popularity is a huge part of it but the fact that he survived those metas and still was used to a success is the problem. He has great damage, can be tanky with very little, ganks are amazing, clear time is great, counter jungling is great, counter ganking is great. The thing is, he has never been weak...never been a moment where you "shouldn't" pick him....that is the issue. But the second someone like Elise is good and starts to see more play she gets nerfed.

Spizzle9000Jan 20, 20165 votes

Here's what irritates people so damn much about Lee: he's ridiculously versatile and has been played consistently for quite literally years straight. He has never been actually weak and has always fit into any meta, as well as the fact he never gets nerfed. Honestly, I think I'd be satisfied if they just reverted that buff he got a while ago to his ult which made the collisions do %max health of the kicked champion to those they collide with.

It's just infuriating that Lee Sin has always been a good pick. Always a reliable one. Never bad. Never weak. Never off meta. Almost all champions have been weak at some points in time except for Lee. It is infuriating.

DunkinNoobsJan 20, 20162 votes

It's infuriating if you view equality as naturally desirable.

Spizzle9000Jan 20, 20166 votes

I understand that some champions just simply are harder to balance and will consistently be more or less powerful than others, but Lee has just always been powerful and is frequently shown as an obvious favorite of Riot. They like to fade out one class of champions and throw in another to be the flavor of the month, but Lee is ALWAYS a reliable and viable pick. Very few others are. It pisses me off, man.

DunkinNoobsJan 20, 20162 votes

He's a favorite of Riot because he's a favorite of the playerbase. His playrate is very high even when he's mediocre. Nerfing him simply because he's popular for the sake of diversity is a disservice to the millions of people that enjoy him and likely won't even satisfy the people that don't like him.

Spizzle9000Jan 20, 20163 votes

Valid reasoning. That's why champions like Vayne and Lee Sin are never nerfed. Riot's a business. I get that. I care very little about diversity, I just grow sick of seeing Lee Sin on a daily basis. No other champions do I see that frequently other than maybe Blitz or Vayne.

I think I, and many others, would be satisfied with removing that %hp damage on collisions for Lee Sin's ultimate. They didn't need to add that in the first place.

DunkinNoobsJan 20, 20163 votes

Do you actually think Lee Sin and Vayne never get nerfed? Both were nerfed just last season. Vayne was nerfed just 4 patches ago. Lee was nerfed multiple times in season 4. And honestly, neither one of them is even that good, at least in Solo Q. People hate it when I bring up statistics, but even Lee's with 125+ games still only win 47% of the time. That is the lowest of all primary junglers in Solo Q for that level of experience. The "Noob Lees" argument doesn't even work here unless you consider Lee to be so difficult to play that the average player can play him over 125 times and still be terrible at him. And we all know these boards not only think that Lee is OP, but also that he's braindead easy, so that can't possibly be it. Vayne mains aren't much better. 125+ games nets them a very mediocre 50.4%, hardly the mark of an OP champion.

There's frankly no basis for nerfing either of these champions, and in Lee's case, you actually have a fairly strong case for buffing him again if his current stats hold. The boards would completely lose their minds were that to happen but Lee Sin now is basically how Lucian was in season 5: Popular in spite of being bad, terrible in Solo Q, and only worth playing over alternatives if you're an absolute god at the champion.

ObericJan 20, 20163 votes

Win rate becomes less relevant as a champion's play rate goes up. If Lee Sin's win rate is below 50%, it is likely because of his popularity. Even bad players will want to play him.

DunkinNoobsJan 20, 20162 votes

I refuse to believe your reading comprehension is actually this bad. Go read my post again, the whole thing, and then come back and tell me why what you just said is so stupid.

blfUvZ8YbuJan 20, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Here's what irritates people so damn much about Lee: he's ridiculously versatile and has been played consistently for quite literally years straight. He has never been actually weak and has always fit into any meta, as well as the fact he never gets nerfed. Honestly, I think I'd be satisfied if they just reverted that buff he got a while ago to his ult which made the collisions do %max health of the kicked champion to those they collide with.

It's just infuriating that Lee Sin has always been a good pick. Always a reliable one. Never bad. Never weak. Never off meta. Almost all champions have been weak at some points in time except for Lee. It is infuriating.

Lee sin was weak patch between 5.15-5.18.

Spizzle9000Jan 20, 20163 votes

I still saw Lee fairly frequently. He may not have been as strong as he has been at other times, but still viable. He has never been a "bad pick" due to his good numbers, mobility, utility, and fantastic ultimate.

blfUvZ8YbuJan 20, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I still saw Lee fairly frequently. He may not have been as strong as he has been at other times, but still viable. He has never been a "bad pick" due to his good numbers, mobility, utility, and fantastic ultimate.

Yes because high play rate.Forced status.

Spizzle9000Jan 20, 20162 votes

So? Zed has a pretty damn high play rate and was hardly used for a very large chunk of S5.

blfUvZ8YbuJan 20, 20162 votes

{quoted}

So? Zed has a pretty damn high play rate and was hardly used for a very large chunk of S5.

Zed too.Zed=Mid lane Lee Sin.Because Faker.(We know)

Spizzle9000Jan 20, 20161 votes

Could you please rephrase this? I'm confused as to what you mean. I meant in my previous post that just because a champion has a high play rate doesn't mean that they have a "forced status" to stay strong. Zed was in the dumpster for months. Lee Sin has never dealt with that. Zed has a high play rate, too.

BeatzBoyFTWJan 20, 20166 votes

Lol, Akatsuki Deidara is only saying Lee being weak because "I said so" without explaining why his kit isn't strong, yet he only looks at playrates/winrates to back up his argument.

Yeah, his argument isn't always that worth reading if that's all he can come up with.

Update: Oops, I made him stop replying. Ahh facepalms, silly me

Spizzle9000Jan 20, 20162 votes

This man is awful at debates. It's sad, man. Like, all he ever does is beg the question. I'm simply continuing the argument so everyone sees how ignorant he is.

RyzeReworkJan 20, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Drosera Eumelia,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bfHqKamT,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2016-01-19T21:08:51.312+0000)

I haven't ever seen Lee be weak is the thing. Even when people said he was "weak" I still saw him dominate the jungle even in pro play. The thing is...Lee has been a constant in the jungle...the second Elise gets strong or starts to do well Riot tends to just nerf her. She might be strong but she is also really hard to play...

Lee has been outta pro play the entire tank season he wasn't seen and when he was he sucked ass he also had a super low win rate elise is stronger for the skill r equiered to play her. You can land e at a safe distance and it would be a 2 second stun you can poke with q and w and stay safe... lee sin your only option is to go straight into the enemy hope that not a single enemy will cc at all or else your done... even as elise you can dodge skills of you time it right with ur repelle. Ive played both and can confirm elise is a lot eaiser to play then leesin

JasiwelJan 20, 20162 votes

It's more annoying because of how strong he is with Warrior and then he builds Hydra into Black Cleaver...then later switches Hydra for Titanic Hydra. He can transition from Assassin/Fighter into Fighter/Tank so easily now and I still am not certain why no one has picked up on it. The reason why Lee statistically loses games later is because most of his scaling is weighed towards early-midgame and the margin of error for his skillshots increases as time goes on...but that doesn't mean he isn't a decent champion late game.

GhastlyGhoulManJan 20, 20163 votes

They'll never nerf Lee Sin. It's in their company's name.

LeeGue of Legends.

StellafreyjaJan 20, 20163 votes

When I saw the nerf, I was assuming it was to offset the movement speed on Runic Echo. :/ Elise is probably gonna get it nerfed...

Very Epic GuyJan 20, 20162 votes

It really is annoying how Lee essentially has everything you could ever want...

Tons of damage Can be tanky Mobility CC A shield Sustain Can reveal stealthed enemies

What are his drawbacks? Go on, I'll wait...

DrProfVibeCheckJan 20, 20161 votes

"muh skilcap"

LeadpaintchipsJan 20, 20162 votes

His "drawbacks" from those who defend his kit is he's a jack of all trades, master of none. There are characters who fill the role better (other than his mobility), but his kit is "good enough" to fill in almost any team comp.

Very Epic GuyJan 20, 20161 votes

{quoted}

His "drawbacks" from those who defend his kit is he's a jack of all trades, master of none. There are characters who fill the role better (other than his mobility), but his kit is "good enough" to fill in almost any team comp.

And that's why I hate him. He's useful for anything and everything, why would you use anyone else?

Angry MonsterJan 20, 20161 votes

pretty sure lee is a master of mobility. I cant think of another champ that has 2 gap closes/dashes on different skills. No one is as mobile as lee.

LeadpaintchipsJan 20, 20161 votes

Sorry if I wasn't clear in my post, but tried to portray that other than in mobility, someone else does it better. Mobility he is king.

Angry MonsterJan 20, 20161 votes

Doesnt that make him not a jack of all trades then?

LeadpaintchipsJan 20, 20161 votes

That is the defense I've seen on the boards though. He doesn't really take that big of a hit in these other areas as other specialists do, but he's the most mobile champ out there. If I've misplaced another champ who has two non ultimate dashes, please let me know.

BluePolarizerJan 20, 20162 votes

Fizz and Leblanc are more mobile conditionally. Just those 2. Lee is the 3rd most mobile champ in the game and most in terms of cooldowns.

DorkunedAurasJan 21, 20161 votes

Ekko

OneDrunkGuyJan 20, 20161 votes

Interesting enough the full quote is "Jack of all trades master of none, but often times better than a master of one" aren't misquotes great?

LeadpaintchipsJan 20, 20161 votes

Haven't heard that version of the phrase, thanks for food for thought.

Edit: Did a quick Wiki of it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_of_all_trades,_master_of_none, Granted it's wikipedia, but the foundation is there to refute your claim.

PartholonianJan 21, 20163 votes

He has bad poke and is generally useless in a siege. If he doesn't go in, he doesn't do shit. If he DOES go in, he's not so tanky that he can't get wrecked before his team engages ("Lee Syndrome" -- how many other champions have a nickname for a specific method of feeding as them?).

Also, he has either tankiness OR damage. He's not Darius.

His CC is not good outside his ult (not only is it not hard, it's not even good compared to other champs' non-ult slows). Many other champions have much better non-ult CC than Lee does. He does have SOME, though, so he's not the absolute worst in the game.

Of course there are other things he doesn't have -- healing others, a revive passive, stealth -- but not having another champion's unique (or at least rare) strengths isn't a weakness per se.

DarthSpectrumJan 20, 20162 votes

They are nerfing her MS because Runic Echo gives 10% now.