Tfw Vayne gets compensation buffs because of Botrk nerf

Heckin Support·Nov 2, 2015·191 votes·28,651 views

But Sejuani is allowed to be dumpstered from the cinderhulk nerfs.

188 Comments

RiotRiotRepertoirNov 2, 201559 votes

Vayne's changes on the PBE are not compensation for BotRK nerfs. They're a push in the direction of making the character a bit more about using Silver Bolts effectively to win and less about out statting her opponents through raw Base AD.

RebonackNov 2, 201528 votes

{quoted}

Vayne's changes on the PBE are not compensation for BotRK nerfs. They're a push in the direction of making the character a bit more about using Silver Bolts effectively to win and less about out statting her opponents through raw Base AD.

Hiya Repertoir!

Have you guys considered the possibility of Vayne's Ult buffing Silverbolts in some capacity rather than just giving her a giant chunk of raw AD?

ThalesNov 2, 20154 votes

Every single ADC (except MF, thanks to her new passive) got a big boost to base AD, and a decrease to AD per level. This isn't a buff — this is a class-wide adjustment.

RiotRiotRepertoirNov 2, 201526 votes

We thought about a few things that Final Hour could do rather than just give AD, but we decided to take it slow and not force a big change when we didn't feel like we had a great idea as to what to do.

HellioningNov 2, 20156 votes

Considering how the Quinn changes are turning out, I think that's for the best.

kaltenashesNov 2, 20151 votes

quinn's new ult, valor's too old to blind item 3070 ...i wish they screwed vayne too Hunf. ='(

FistOfSharkieshaNov 2, 20156 votes

You're kidding right? Quinn will be the best roaming champion in the game and the safest splitpusher as soon as you upgrade trinket or buy sightstone. All you need is 3 seconds of warning and you can't be caught by anyone. I honestly think the change is very cool. It doesn't make her OP or anything but gives her one of the strongest niches in the game. Honestly if not for the item changes pushing the ADCs over the top while nerfing mages into obscurity, the marksman update would be AMAZING. They're really focusing on giving each marksman a clear niche rather than just having 10+ champions who all perform the exact same role of AAing with as big of a gold advantage as possible.

BorigradNov 2, 20153 votes

{quoted}

We thought about a few things that Final Hour could do rather than just give AD, but we decided to take it slow and not force a big change when we didn't feel like we had a great idea as to what to do.

You mean like Stealth and Movement speed?

kile147Nov 2, 20156 votes

You have to admit that right now the stealth is the only part about her ult that feels "ultimate". The movespeed and raw AD do make her considerably stronger, but not in a way that feels strong. I think it'd be much cooler for the ult to instead give all her abilities bonus effects, like her tumble giving stealth, increasing the damage of her bolts, and then giving her E a brief slow if it doesn't stun. It'd basically be moving power from the AD steroid to places where it would feel more impactful.

Chromatic EagleNov 2, 201566 votes

But here's what I don't understand, why is it that with champions like Vayne, Riven, and Lee, you're very cautious about making changes, but champs like Mord, Cass, etc., you're more willing to take risks? Shouldn't you be cautious with all champions, or taking risks with them all? How do you decide per champion?

toxıc sIutNov 2, 201526 votes

Stonewall did a very good "doomed champion" video a few months back, and the TL;DR for champions like riven (animation cancelling), lee sin (overloaded kit) and teemo (uninteractive gameplay) is because their fandoms (and sometimes riot too) really don't want any change.

"but what about all the morde/cass fans deya?"

Riven is up there as one of the most popular mains, and teemo is way too iconic to change. Lee is the most played jungle in the game (even with a garbage 45% winrate at high elos where he has the best chance to succeed).

On the other hand, pre reworks, I saw maybe 2 cassiopeias total and under 10 mordekaisers in 2 and a half seasons of playing this game. There's just no comparison to be made.

Chromatic EagleNov 2, 20153 votes

Every time Riot is accused of playing favorites due to popularity or money, they get defensive. Even the ones they decide to rework, either end up successful or broken, so for me it's not so much who they choose, but how they handle it. Sion, Poppy, and Taric receive a lot of devotion to make it right with themselves or fans, while others seem to be rushed without considering the players.

RiotRiotRepertoirNov 2, 201510 votes

Personally, I'm pretty willing to take what players would perceive as risks on most champions if I think the changes make sense. In Vayne's case for the preseason, her change wasn't really intended to be a major highlight of the preseason, but more that every marksman got at least a nudge in the right direction. If I thought I had a good direction for a cool, new ultimate (or a positive change to Final Hour) for Vayne, I'd probably try to make it happen. That kind of focus was not put into Vayne specifically for the preseason, however.

pripustasNov 2, 201518 votes

{quoted}

Personally, I'm pretty willing to take what players would perceive as risks on most champions if I think the changes make sense. In Vayne's case for the preseason, her change wasn't really intended to be a major highlight of the preseason, but more that every marksman got at least a nudge in the right direction. If I thought I had a good direction for a cool, new ultimate (or a positive change to Final Hour) for Vayne, I'd probably try to make it happen. That kind of focus was not put into Vayne specifically for the preseason, however.

Please, consider following. You've ruined Trundle BOTRK nerf, Tiamat no longer grants waveclear, mana pots removed, already struggles to do something, gets out-dueled by Fiora. while all he has is 1x1 - no compensation buffs Aatrox BOTRK nerf, Tiamat no longer grants waveclear, grevious wounds make his passive 40% more useless, can't do anything better than other champions - no compensation buffs Pantheon Has no way of winning his lane after mana pot removal (which he absolutely must to be useful after laning phase) Tiamat no longer grants waveclear - gets 50 mana buff while lowering mana per level. May I remind you that 50 mana is 1 spell. Talon Tiamat no longer grants waveclear, Last Whisper made bad against squishy targets, mana pots removed gets 50 starting mana increase (50 mana doesn't even cover level 1 W) gets mana per level reduced. Don't forget that he has 55 base AD. For a melee assassin? Vayne can outduel anyone, very safe laning phase, late game hyper carry. BOTRK nerf - compensation buffs

RiotRiotRepertoirNov 2, 201511 votes

I'm not necessarily saying the other 4 mentioned here won't need some love in the new season, but Vayne's changes were made to her not because we wanted to give compensation buffs of some sort. They, along with the numerous other changes made for marksmen in the preseason (all marksmen currently have changes planned for 5.22) were made to push her more toward a particular playstyle. I do understand that Silver Bolts isn't the most loved ability out there by non-Vaynes, but it is what Vayne is all about, and there's much more gameplay in making her get those Silver Bolts hits off than there is in her AD/lvl.

Anyway, I'll try to make sure we keep an eye out for the other AD users that maybe aren't feeling so loved in this preseason. Thanks for the post.

SpoofghoulNov 2, 201510 votes

{quoted}

I'm not necessarily saying the other 4 mentioned here won't need some love in the new season, but Vayne's changes were made to her not because we wanted to give compensation buffs of some sort. They, along with the numerous other changes made for marksmen in the preseason (all marksmen currently have changes planned for 5.22) were made to push her more toward a particular playstyle. I do understand that Silver Bolts isn't the most loved ability out there by non-Vaynes, but it is what Vayne is all about, and there's much more gameplay in making her get those Silver Bolts hits off than there is in her AD/lvl.

Anyway, I'll try to make sure we keep an eye out for the other AD users that maybe aren't feeling so loved in this preseason. Thanks for the post.

Dont want to be that guy but... with the new executioners calling + ugrade you removed the only counterplay, healtanking, to vaynes silverbolts from the game. Now granted there was morellonomicon but it at least required both an ap carry to focus the same target aswell and it only kicked in below 40% hp.

Right now a vayne's silverbolts augmented with mortal reminder can not be countered in any possible way.

Sure did a good job there making silver bolts as interactive as better run away before she gets 3 atacks off. Its not like she has a passive and dashes to make closing in for that 3th hit easier..

Sire HippingtonNov 2, 201520 votes

Could we maybe focus more on the gameplay around her silverbolts and lower the stack duration to +2sec? This would make disengageing from her befor the 3ed hit lands and re-engageing shortly after a viable counterplay option. Right now, once you have two stacks, which happens nearly instant, you are either bound to eat the 3ed, or you are zoned for quite a while. If people have better options to counteract silverbolts, they probably have a bit less problems with it haveing such a high reward.

RiotRiotRepertoirNov 3, 201512 votes

Good suggestion.

VlasimutheNov 3, 20152 votes

And this is an amazing person/employee right here +1

VinscentNov 3, 20152 votes

If they're a good vayne player however, you can just do her instant bolt combo. I.e. auto, q, and e. And then they'll just play safe until they can do the combo again. more so pulling her out of any trading situations until she can get an instant chunk every time.

Sire HippingtonNov 3, 20153 votes

that costs her alot mana and her primary defence tool in lane, and in teamfights she wants to get more than one proc for sure It also ads a good down time to her trades as E has a rather big cd early on

Z46Nov 2, 20154 votes

The problem really isn't even her Silver Bolts. As someone who really doesn't like Vayne, Silver Bolts is the only thing I can respect about her kit in terms of being able to keep sustained damage against even the tankiest of tanks where other ADCs can fall flat. The problem is that she has not only that true damage, but high mobility, reliable self-peel and CC, and stealth directly tied to her high mobility.

Assassins will almost always lose to a Vayne of equal skill level (and killing squishy ADCs is one of the few things assassins are supposed to excel at very heavily), because she can force them off and kill them unopposed, while taking virtually no damage herself. If they're about to get away within an inch of their life, Vayne has the movement speed buff and Tumble to chase them down.

A lack of waveclear alone isn't enough to balance out having so much power not even related to her actual damage output that she can counter-assassinate assassins.

SpoofghoulNov 3, 20152 votes

Well Vayne killing assasins isnt something new she does indeed have alot of tools for that in her kit. But one of the bigger problems is that she is allowed to use pretty much all of them on these assasins.

Vayne doesnt care if you are tanky or not she kills everything equally fast because of the high attackspeed and silverbolts. When you go in with your tank she will likely tumble out of the engage and shoot you away during which time she is guaranteed to kill your teams tank/engager before your gapcloser comes off cooldown for a second attempt.

The other situation is she kill you first whilst her frontline tanks for her, Then after she can still kill your frontline as fast as Vayne's is being killed.

Unless you have an aggro tank like Olaf or Mundo, Olaf deals more dmg the lower he gets but also relies on his lifesteal/spellvamp to not immediately die once he gets low. Mundo does something similar, He doesnt need as much armor as a regular tank but instead keeps regenerating whilst doing good damage. Both sort of force you to focus them and rely on their sustain to help keep them alive. With built in tenacity and sustain they can get past your frontline and and stay alive long enough for your team, including you the assasin to help kill their backline faster.

But now that sustain is cut in half And vayne will deal a fat burst of damage every 3th attack, effectively never allowing these heal/aggro tanks to ever get below 20% hp or they wont be able to do their job, normally its ok for someone like mundo to get past frontline drop 50% start fighting the adc drop to 20% but stay alive due to healing. This allows the assasin to kill their ap/ad carry or adc on his team to either kill their fronline first.

If you go in first as assasin you will likely die vs Vayne. But now if you go in as an aggro/healtank first you will also likely die. Normally you can build armor vs adc but this isnt very effective vs vayne due to true dmg but building hp doesnt work well either due to % true dmg, So aggro/heal tanking was always the best counterplay but now this too wont work properly.

laststanding6Nov 2, 20159 votes

@RitoRpertoir can you guys please start replying to the wave of threads expressing concerns with the marksmen changes? Rito so far have been completely ignoring them and the complete communication breakdown is making a lot of people pissed. On another note thought could you give talon a pick me up buff? IE base ad, ratios and mana.

RiotRiotRepertoirNov 2, 201516 votes

I'd be pretty comfortable talking about any champion-specific marksmen changes coming up, as that is the area I'm most involved in. I suspect that this may be more about AP itemization, tanks feeling screwed, and adjusting non-marksmen items for marksmen, though? That's what seems to be occupying most of the top posts at the moment.

LankPantsNov 2, 201514 votes

I suspect that this may be more about AP itemization, tanks feeling screwed, and adjusting non-marksmen items for marksmen, though? That's what seems to be occupying most of the top posts at the moment.

And are they not legitimate concerns?

The balance team should probably be addressing these points since not everyone is an ADC player and right now it does feel like everyone who isn't an ADC or Support player is getting shafted.

ULTRAF0RCENov 2, 20155 votes

He isn't part of the balance team though he is a designer for some of the reworked champs

SmithneyNov 2, 20159 votes

They are, but those are not his own focus.

There are other Rioters (whom Repertoir hopefully notifies) working on the balance topics you mentioned. The balance team probably understimated the players' concern about non-marksmen, which could be the reason behind the low amount of Red responses.

HellioningNov 2, 20154 votes

I'm still nervous about Quinn's identity and playstyle. Her ult is fun, but it just seems so lackluster. The only time I really feel like I'm going fast enough to warrant an the ult slot and the channel time is when I have homeguards and am heading out of base.

And even when I do get to wherever I'm going, I don't do anything but do damage. It's like I'm a really shitty jungler.

Puppet33rNov 2, 20155 votes

Could you please hurry up finding those positive changes. We just saw at worlds that riven can easily snowball out of control not just in soloqueue but on the pro scene as well. And her flash engages(notice distortion boots rush) are just as scary, if not worse, as Annie's. I mean what casters called "amazing" riven plays at worlds. We call it friday here in plat+ solo queue.

Sona PingNov 2, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Chromatic Eagle,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OTbqRIlp,comment-id=0009000000010003,timestamp=2015-11-02T03:57:39.228+0000)

but champs like Mord, Cass, etc., you're more willing to take risks?

Take Sion as an example in this. The thing that a lot of the champions that they changed dramatically have in common is that they "aren't in a good place" at that time. Old Sion was hardly played. And for good reason, he had a wonky... scratch that, bizarre kit that was pretty broken. There's a lot I could write on it but the point is there was call for it to be massively changed.

There are champions who aren't played, whose kits are out of date, perform less than average, have certain Issues or whatnot. These champions are somewhat "ok" to take risks on, not just because they are unpopular and thus don't have many people depending on their abilities being what they are, but because they need large changes to even make enough of a difference. On the other hand, other champions are more popular because they are working at least well enough. Despite whatever memes there are or whatever out there, these other champs are actually in a pretty good place right now and only need minor adjustments; it makes sense to be cautious with these champions because a larger change could unexpectedly even more than what is predicted and throw them into awful territory

You might want to check out those videos; Deya mentioned Stonewall and what he was actually saying in those videos had a point. Some champions can be hard to change, even if there are issues with their gameplay. Take Tryndamere's Undying Rage and Teemo's darts and shrooms. Riot could try to address Trynd's ult being broken and holding back the rest of his kit or how Teemo just acts as an irremovable nuisance the entire game... but how?

Tryndamere's Undying Rage is central to his kit and character; if you take it out Tryndamere loses what makes him Tryndamere.

Chromatic EagleNov 2, 20154 votes

Yes Sion is a good example. The thing with him is that Riot took their time to change everything about him. He didn't feel rushed. Also his kit is such a mess that you could probably choose an identity at random and it would be better than his old one. But there are people who miss ap Sion.

You're right about the other champions, which is why they should talk to the fans about what they like about their kits. What they're willing to see changed or removed. What type of fantasy they're looking for. That's why I'm hopeful for Poppy and Taric. They gathered a lot of fan input.

LankPantsNov 2, 20155 votes

They're a push in the direction of making the character a bit more about using Silver Bolts effectively to win and less about out statting her opponents through raw Base AD.

I'm sorry but what?

Vayne's base AD is higher than it was before. Her ult still gives her a huge AD steroid. Her AD is almost completely unchanged.

If you meant flat damage I can understand, but something tells me "AD" is not what you were looking for.

RiotRiotRepertoirNov 2, 201515 votes

Vayne's AD/lvl is getting reduced by more than other marksmen in the upcoming preseason changes, alongside the changes to Silver Bolts. Maybe this was less clear, but when I said Base AD, I meant AD at level 1 plus AD/lvl.

DragoonRuinNov 2, 20158 votes

{quoted}

Vayne's AD/lvl is getting reduced by more than other marksmen in the upcoming preseason changes, alongside the changes to Silver Bolts. Maybe this was less clear, but when I said Base AD, I meant AD at level 1 plus AD/lvl.

Miss Fortune would like to have a word with you about this.... Her base AD got lowered to 1/level from 3/level before this RW. MF who is an early game ADC, has less base AD, than Vayne, who is a late game Hyper Carry.

Red RyuNov 2, 20156 votes

{quoted}

Miss Fortune would like to have a word with you about this.... Her base AD got lowered to 1/level from 3/level before this RW. MF who is an early game ADC, has less base AD, than Vayne, who is a late game Hyper Carry.

She got a new passive that makes her first auto now hit like a truck.

Coccyx420Nov 2, 20154 votes

Right so she can be good without gear and great with gear.

Aside from Utility, rarely any other adc gets that sort of power.

I wouldn't doubt it if I people started building tankier stats on her to make her that much stronger, especially for top lane.

CaptnJakSparrowNov 2, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Vayne's changes on the PBE are not compensation for BotRK nerfs. They're a push in the direction of making the character a bit more about using Silver Bolts effectively to win and less about out statting her opponents through raw Base AD.

She already wins because of silver bolts though . . . . she just rushes attack speed and wins.

ULTRA RAMOOSENov 2, 20157 votes

Thanks to your amazing armor nerfs I can no longer tank her; by stacking hp or armor, this is fking ridiculous!

Linna ExcelNov 2, 20153 votes

But what about sejuani?

BoulderoxNov 2, 201545 votes

and then you realize they balance her by giving her MORE % hp damage http://media2.giphy.com/media/HlFDE0DEp9Gq4/giphy.gif

ProeliumNov 2, 201518 votes

{quoted}

and then you realize they balance her by giving her MORE % hp damage http://media2.giphy.com/media/HlFDE0DEp9Gq4/giphy.gif

I'm so damn tired of Riot's obsession with % HP damage...

Slamurai JackNov 2, 201511 votes

And then you realize that it doesn't even matter since Graves Lucian are going to obliterate her with all their new toys.

ayNigerianPrinceNov 2, 201516 votes

I'd love to see Graves as a hard counter to her. Something about her being shot in the face by a shotgun sounds so appealing.

PennsNov 2, 20158 votes

Tbh theres no way the new Graves destroyes Vayne. His Q is easily dodgable with Vayne Q now, his range is decreased + he does more dmg "melee", so Vayne just kites him like a melee and he doesnt do shit (in theory, at least). Idk what "new toy" Lucian gets, but I doubt hes gonna beat Vayne either. Actually I dont think many of the reworked adcs can beat Vayne except for maybe Cait and Kog. Quinn lost her blind and execution, MF is a teamfight champ so she most likely gets rekt in lane and split pushed on, Corki is gonna be skill dependent.

LOL SpammerNov 2, 201510 votes

They only buffed her late game. Her early game (1-10) was nerfed heavily by taking away the base damage.

Big LincolnNov 2, 20154 votes

sejuani isn't that bad

i think she'll see some benefit from the new jungle being easier to clear as well

vayne being compensated is... somewhat reasonable

BoulderoxNov 2, 201529 votes

it doesn't help when they nerf champions that benefited from cinderhulk and THEN nerf cinderhulk all together... that is a problem... definitely non useless, but gimped and then double gimped

Big LincolnNov 2, 201514 votes

i mean riot's reasoning for not buffing her back was horse shit, we all know that

but riot has shady logic for everything most of the time

ayNigerianPrinceNov 2, 201515 votes

"She got her time in the spotlight. We need to let Vayne Jinx and Lee Sin dominate again."