Master Yi = 0 competitive apperances through entire LoL existence - nerfed.

PiVoRx·Nov 23, 2015·7 votes·16,802 views

Flat 35 sec CD ability nerfed AP ratio by 50% Im out. Fuck you Riot.

94 Comments

RiotMeddlerNov 24, 201559 votes

Competitive play doesn't dictate champion balance. It's a factor to consider, but we believe it should be treated as just one element to think about.
Master Yi has been used in competitive play.
This is a tooltip correction only. The actual ratio's been 0.15 for a long time.

Earl EulrichNov 24, 201513 votes

while you´re here...care to give insight on the swain-nerfs in one of the two or three threads around? It seem´s...strange to put such a huge nerf on a champ that see´s very little play and isn´t seen as really unfair by most parts of the community - while champs that feature a very high banrate despite seeing not that much actual sucess like yasuo because they´re highly frustrating to face don´t get addressed like...ever.

34825281_DELNov 24, 20151 votes

Where are these nerfs you speak of?

R110Nov 24, 20152 votes

They are currently testing some nerfs on the PBE (Public Beta Environment). Changes can be found on here: http://www.surrenderat20.net/2015/11/1123-pbe-update.html

LadyRenlyNov 24, 20151 votes

what? link please...

R110Nov 24, 20152 votes

Link: http://www.surrenderat20.net/2015/11/1123-pbe-update.html

RiotMeddlerNov 24, 201516 votes

We've felt Swain's been borderline too strong for a long time, but his low play and ban rate have been a deciding factor in leaving him as is and keeping an eye on him. We're now seeing him perform really well post preseason changes, so feel we need to take some power off him. Current thinking (still going through testing, so not a locked change yet), is that as a sustained damage, drain mage-tank, that CC's the best strength to hit, hence the change to Nevermove so it's got a lower duration at lower ranks.

LankPantsNov 24, 201516 votes

We've felt Swain's been borderline too strong for a long time, but his low play and ban rate have been a deciding factor in leaving him as is and keeping an eye on him.

How about Lee Sin or Yasuo, who've been too strong (nothing borderline about it) for longer with a high P/B rate.

Why is he getting nerfed over these champions?

Crowe StalkerNov 24, 201511 votes

'CC's the best place to hit'

Okay sure, the immobile mage who has absolutely horrible times CSing without at least ten to twenty games of practice (reminder, literally anyone else this bad is a support, has great waveclear with spells or has a ridiculous auto modifier) gets out-traded with anyone with burst, who is actually weaker mid and late after his Zhonyas gets popped because Marksmen just got buffed, and even does all of his jobs less than other mages, especially Viktor and . He is getting nerfed so that he now has even less answers to melee champions (and, by the way, his kit's set up so he's supposed to be bullying, if you forgot) and less ways of ensuring his Decrepify damage hits for it's full duration, which is actually a lot of his early-game damage. Oh, and we're not even getting into his Mana Costs...

If you want to look at an ability to nerf, Torment still has Damage Amplification even though you made drastic changes to anyone with a DFG, but Swain has one of those built into a basic ability that's also a damage over time effect that has ludicrous synergy with Deathfire Touch.

I love Swain as a character. I have roleplayed him for a year and a half now. I love him, but his inability to offer anything someone else can't do better ultimately frustrates me, coupled with the fact he has not gotten a skin almost as long as Kennen and at least Kennen has a lot of skins to choose from. Historically his last buff, not universal buffs like when you nerfed armor or the recent mana increases, buffs focused on him to do anything positive, was back in October, 2013. He has since been ignored a great deal, between Rioters dancing around Dragonmaster Swain and saying he's always in an 'Okay' position. Only recently were we told he's going to be targeted for some changes, and those are being thrown on the back burner right now and we have no date or even general idea when they are coming.

At least tell us the Rework is coming after Taric, because Gods Know his kit may have been interesting back in '09, but it doesn't hold a candle to any mage today.

AbahlamNov 24, 20154 votes

I am a main Swain, so i may be not impartial.

First Swain isn't strong at all against long range push/poke/farm ap champ (azir, lux, Viktor ...who were overly present last season) but yeah these guys just got kinda nerfed so Swain is coming back recently on the rift, thanks to ROA buff too. You are cutting one of his strength and you listed his others (sustained damage, drain mage-"tank", with CC), but this guy has serious drawback too :

He has no spell/tool to help him last it like a lot of champs now have (DOT aren't the best for that). Moreover he has one of the lowest ad and one of the weirdest AA animation.
He has no pushing power at all, unless u empty your mana pool on one single creep wave (at least early). Thus his ability to roam is bad. It also mean a weaker wave clear later to defend against siege.
He has no mobility. DOTs can be good but it's countered by heal/shield/regen etc.. contrary to burst (but his DOTs damages aren't stronger to compensate)
This guy need to buy too much stats. If you want to use Swain full potential (his sustain and damages from R at a low range) you need : Tankiness (your kit don't give you any) so HP to avoid being burst (otherwise sustain is useless) and Armor/MR to enhance sustain efficiency. This make Swain BAD if behind cause he won't be able to use his play style. Mana pool and/or regen (passive not enough once you have ult) Damages, cuz yeah your an ap carry So HP/Armor/Mr/Mana/AP/Mpen while for instance, current Graves just need damages while fighting at same range as Swain. His E giving him up to 120 Arm/Mr for an adc, and bloodlust mastery giving him sustain.

I don't wanna say that this nerf is not justified or that Swain is overly weak now but he has several drawbacks for a midlaner. He has a lot of strengths and lot of people don't know how to deal with him or underestimate the stacked DOTs damages (RIP E+ignite nerf though) but this is compensated by all these things I listed above. I DO HOPE this nerf won't come without any compensation because his W snare is his only way to engage with his lack of mobility (especially against long range ap who already can outpush him without much counter play), and enemies are still able to hit him while he engages that way. Moreover Deathfire touch might be nerfed too.

Hope these arguments will be taken into account. For Beatrice sake, CAW !

Photos of GhostsNov 27, 20152 votes

What about improving his autoattacks then?

LuckerDogGGNov 24, 20153 votes

The actual ratio's been 0.15 for a long time.

Hey Meddler, I have a question for you regarding Master Yi: do you know when this change actually took place and for what reason? I'm curious since this never showed up in ANY of the patch notes since his rework (as a Yi main since season 2, I would've known).

RiotMeddlerNov 24, 20155 votes

Looks like it got changed during the rework. I'd assume it was part of the balancing sweep that happened in the last month or so before the rework's release and documentation was missed.

TotalJerkNov 24, 20157 votes

That's an incredibly long time to have an undocumented change without rectifying it.

Duke AnaxNov 24, 20152 votes

I always wondered why it felt so weak even when I build some AP.

Dominick DestineNov 24, 20155 votes

{quoted}

Competitive play doesn't dictate champion balance. It's a factor to consider, but we believe it should be treated as just one element to think about.

Master Yi has been used in competitive play.

This is a tooltip correction only. The actual ratio's been 0.15 for a long time.

Now tell us why you're nerfing Swain/Skarner/Rammus while buffing Zed/Riven... that is pure insanity.

kitcat300Nov 24, 20153 votes

Swain: See new red response above

Skarner: I am able to clear all six camps on my first run without backing, that is probably why.

Rammus: Most Powerballs are followed by Puncturing Taunt anyways, so I don't think it will be a big deal.

Zed/Riven: They believe AD assassins are falling off without the Brutalizer to lean on.

Dominick DestineNov 24, 20154 votes

{quoted}

Swain: See new red response above

They made the wrong call.

Skarner: I am able to clear all six camps on my first run without backing, that is probably why.

What's your point? so can Warwick... Lee can do it pretty close as well, not all but close. Nerf Warwick and Lee?

Lee also doesn't have mana limitations like Warwick.

Rammus: Most Powerballs are followed by Puncturing Taunt anyways, so I don't think it will be a big deal.

That's not an argument. You did not contradict anything I said, a nerf is a nerf.

If they removed 50% of Lee's base AD and said "well he mostly uses skills anyway" would that be justification? no.

Rammus did not and does not need a nerf. The nerf is unjustified.

ModAcademy KaynNov 25, 20152 votes

Ennnhhhh, I'd argue that Rammus point, and counter argue it as well.

For the most part, I agree with what the guy said before. He's going to use his taunt immediately after hitting someone with a ball. The slow nerf will make it a tad easier to get away when he doesn't have it up, while not touching his damage.

At the same time though, it could be that Rammus is merely a reaction to a more AD Based Meta. His prevalence may stem off of ADC's prevalence, and as such, we should be looking at adcs first.

Either way, have you seen a Rammus with Thornmail, Gromp Buff, and his own Thornmail buff? Shits scary to a mage as well.

Dominick DestineNov 25, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Ennnhhhh, I'd argue that Rammus point, and counter argue it as well.

You counter argued it very poorly. My point was not contradicted even once, let alone refuted.

There is no justification for the Rammus nerf, your argument of "Well, it doesn't even matter because he will taunt anyway" is trash on the lines of ; "Well, let's remove 50% of Lee's base AD because he uses skills to do damage anyway, right?" that would be unjustified and the 'counter argument' would be trash.

Furthermore, Rammus is grossly underpowered, the only reason he is seeing some play and success is BECAUSE of the massive prevalence of AD, this is the one time where it is valid to say "It is because of the meta" because Riot themselves nerfed mages and tanks across the board while heavily buffing ADC leading to a very AD heavy meta, making strict anti AD champions better picks. Rammus' nerf is 100% unjustified.

ModAcademy KaynNov 25, 20151 votes

The point me and the other guy was making was that they were shaving away power from spots that will hurt him the least? It's not nerfing Lee's base ad by half, its like taking away Lee's ministun on his ult (the small one that roots the target in place BEFORE the kick.) because that isn't his main strength.

They're not nerfing his "attack me and die" power, they're slightly taking off a small amount of his stickyness. It's like trimming a branch that is in the way than chopping down the tree.

For the sake of arguement, i'd like to know why you think Rammus is underpowered. Rammus has always been a niche champion because his thing is to punish autoattackers. So when he begins to live in a meta where his niche is realized and appreciated, is it too much to consider that he is doing TOO well in his niche?

Food for Though.

Dominick DestineNov 25, 20151 votes

{quoted} is it too much to consider that he is doing TOO well in his niche?

Yes. It is too much to consider; He is doing his job reasonably well, thriving in an environment of massive overpowered ADC. To nerf him when he is only doing exactly what he was designed to do is unjustified.

But to ask you the same question; Do you consider nerfing underpowered characters to be a reasonable action? Yes/No

Remember that Yasuo, Lee, Thresh, Alistar and Riven were very popular in worlds and have consistently outperformed their peers (Ex: Urgot, Skarner, Galio, Sona, Warwick, etc.). Rammus being decent at doing exactly what is designed to do but getting nerfs.... is a slap in the face when you realize that the overpowered champions have been doing infinitely better across the board rather than in a VERY specific scenario.

ModAcademy KaynNov 25, 20151 votes

This is getting slightly irritating. You keep focusing on a single argument while ignoring the rest. Rammus HAS NOT been nerfed in his Niche. He HAS had power taken away from a less pivotal aspect of him. His niche has remained untouch, while giving ANYONE, not just adcs, a bit more breathing room while trying to get away from him.

Also, the idea of underpowered here is being rather different from our point of view. You think Rammus is underpowered outside of his niche. That is literally what Rammus is. He is such a Niche, an Anti-Auto Attacker champ, that he provides little else of use other than a single target cc, and if you want that, you're better off picking Sion, Naut, or other Cc tanks.

What you're asking, is to buff every non-niche part of him, to move him from his Niche. To make him viable against non-auto attackers teams, would require a full blown rework. All of Rammus is to F**k over auto attackers. That's his niche. To make him Viable outside his NIche, would make his Auto Attacker Niche, even MORE powerful.

The solution to things isn't just to "buff" underplayed champs. They have very real problems built INTO their kit, that isn't as simple as to just buff some numbers

Dominick DestineNov 25, 20151 votes

Your failure to answer the question is all I needed to know.

ModAcademy KaynNov 25, 20151 votes

I cannot answer your question because it is a loaded, biased question, designed to only prove YOUR point.

Dominick DestineNov 25, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I cannot answer your question because it is a loaded, biased question, designed to only prove YOUR point.

Exactly.

Now do you understand why your earlier question was BS? apply exactly what you just wrote, to yourself.

ModAcademy KaynNov 25, 20151 votes

You're presenting me a Logical Fallacy. You keep saying how Rammus is underpowered but refusing to state why he is underpowered. So far you've given me two Logical Fallacies.

A Loaded Question: where I can not answer without looking guilty
Burdern of Proof: Where you are trying to get me to prove that Rammus is underpowered while you yourself does not provide this information yourself.

I woul love to know why you think Rammus is underpowered. This helps spark a healthy argument, and not put Logical Fallacies like you have in your previous entries. Help me understand, don't just tell me "You're wrong because I say so"

Dominick DestineNov 25, 20151 votes

{quoted}

You're presenting me a Logical Fallacy.

Nope, but let's see what flimsy attempt you come up with.

You keep saying how Rammus is underpowered but refusing to state why he is underpowered.

I have already made it clear, but since you seem to lack the capacity to understand basic concepts, I will make it nice and simple; Because the alternatives are strictly superior (Ex: Lee Sin, Rek Sai, Jarvan, Gragas, etc.) barring extremely specific circumstances (I.e. All AD teams) which are playing to Rammus' one strength (Strict anti AD). I mentioned this already, several times.... but feel free to pretend there is a logical fallacy here, rather than your nonsensical fallacy fallacy.

A Loaded Question: where I can not answer without looking guilty

Intentional. You presented a loaded question/bullshit question.

I responded in kind.

Burdern of Proof: Where you are trying to get me to prove that Rammus is underpowered while you yourself does not provide this information yourself.

You ignored reality. Your delusion is not my fault.

I woul love to know why you think Rammus is underpowered.

Not sure if troll or just Re-re.

ModAcademy KaynNov 25, 20151 votes

I have already made it clear, but since you seem to lack the capacity to understand basic concepts, I will make it nice and simple; Because the alternatives are strictly superior (Ex: Lee Sin, Rek Sai, Jarvan, Gragas, etc.) barring extremely specific circumstances (I.e. All AD teams) which are playing to Rammus' one strength (Strict anti AD). I mentioned this already, several times.... but feel free to pretend there is a logical fallacy here, rather than your nonsensical fallacy fallacy.

So the Niche champion is worse than those who aren't restricted by a Niche? What a surprise, I never would've thought. I've already responded to this as well, but you seemed to have ignored as well, Rammus can not be good outside his Niche, without making his Niche even more powerful.

Intentional. You presented a loaded question/bullshit question.

Once again, you do not present me the evidence of what "Loaded question" I supposedly asked you. My Question was and still can be answered in way that you may still prove your point.

You ignored reality. Your delusion is not my fault

Insulting people doesn't help an argument. Only lowers how others perceive your character.

IpolsNov 24, 20151 votes

summoner 11

AkeneroNov 24, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Competitive play doesn't dictate champion balance. It's a factor to consider, but we believe it should be treated as just one element to think about.

Master Yi has been used in competitive play.

This is a tooltip correction only. The actual ratio's been 0.15 for a long time.

How long?

Synx7Nov 25, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Competitive play doesn't dictate champion balance. It's a factor to consider, but we believe it should be treated as just one element to think about.

Master Yi has been used in competitive play.

This is a tooltip correction only. The actual ratio's been 0.15 for a long time.

It does, hence the Lee Sin unneeded buff pre worlds. The champion balance its about favoritism and Flashy Pay$, so its entertaining to watch on your boring LC$.
"Competitive play doesn't dictate champion balance." You just contradicted yourself, nice one. What you're saying doesnt make any sesnse. might want to consider editing your crappy post?
Yeah okay. Its just a tooltip error isnt it? Btw, Idgaf about Yi. I don't even play him. But seeing Meddler commenting and saying bullshit that doesnt make any sense its kinda irritating .

LukeTheSheppyNov 25, 20151 votes

{quoted}

It does, hence the Lee Sin unneeded buff pre worlds. The champion balance its about favoritism and Flashy Pay$, so its entertaining to watch on your boring LC$.

"Competitive play doesn't dictate champion balance." You just contradicted yourself, nice one. What you're saying doesnt make any sesnse. might want to consider editing your crappy post?

Yeah okay. Its just a tooltip error isnt it? Btw, Idgaf about Yi. I don't even play him. But seeing Meddler commenting and saying bullshit that doesnt make any sense its kinda irritating .

He's simply correcting the OP's erroneous statement that Master Yi has "0 competitive apperances through entire LoL existence". The two statements are unrelated. Just because Master Yi HAD been used in competitive play doesn't mean that it is the reason he was nerfed.

VentiraNov 23, 20155 votes

..why do you even care? It's not like it's hurting his damage.

PiVoRxNov 23, 20153 votes

LoL is about something more than damage, and Yi has nothing beside that. And its about some rules. Dumpstered champion gets nerfed like hes not useless enough.

AbyssphereNov 24, 20151 votes

{quoted}

LoL is about something more than damage, and Yi has nothing beside that. And its about some rules. Dumpstered champion gets nerfed like hes not useless enough.

If you're a Yi fan and you think he's useless then you need to get better at the game. You can have as much success with him as anyone.

BluePolarizerNov 24, 20152 votes

it is very hard to play Yi properly at high elo.

Baron of BreadNov 24, 20151 votes

Hypothetically it is hard to play all champions at high elo. Otherwise we would all just play Annie and get to diamond.

StoningtonNov 23, 20153 votes

Faker played him mid lane and wrecked in LCK Summer 2015. I'm not sure about any other appearances.

HupsisNov 24, 20152 votes

Do you build AP on Yi? How much?

The new shield/healing increasing mastery (the resolve tree one) probably was deemed too good with his self healing so Riot decided to balance things out.

Tristanl0lNov 24, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Do you build AP on Yi? How much?

The new shield/healing increasing mastery (the resolve tree one) probably was deemed too good with his self healing so Riot decided to balance things out.

item 3124

HupsisNov 24, 20152 votes

So you are basically loosing about 40 healing when that thing has 8 stacks. about 25 when it's has 0 stacks.

With the healing mastery (+8% healing) you can increase the healing for about the same amount when the ability is maxed.

Solidair3Nov 24, 20152 votes

"through entire LoL existence"

That's hilarious. You're hilarious.

Best KhaZix VoidNov 24, 20152 votes

OP appears to take the short bus

SlashStrikerNov 24, 20152 votes

its actually true that Yi was picked on LCS after rework but only Faker was able to win and actually won twice where others lost. I dont know anyone else pick Yi on LCS after rework and win LCS game. If anyone else picked Yi on LCS and win i'd would like to know