Tell me what is skillful in his RQQ combo for 3/4 of hp? Every kiddo up to Bronze destroys people with it. Its not a fucking 2010 where people where still learning how to level up abilities with CTRL, open your fucking eyes Riot.
RexSaur58 votesWardhop into R QQ killing someone from full health is one of the most cancerous thing ive ever seen in this game.
And to say that takes "skill" lmao its basically as easy as annie point and clicking her whole kit.
ReZisT Lust50 votesannie takes more skill cause she only has 3 abilities and no mobility spell lol
FalconPawwwwnch14 votesWardhop R QQ is one of the most frustrating things to get killed by
At least Vi's ultimate doesn't deal tons of damage while CCing you
Incarceration4 votesIs that sarcasm I detect?
[zombie-nunu-hearts]
ModCaptainMårvelous15 votesVi Ult: 150/300/450 (+1.4% AD) Lee Ult: 150/300/450 (+2.0% AD)
And that's not even counting Lee's Q-execute bonus vs. Vi's far-less-powerful Q-tap.
Ackelope1 votesIt's still quite a bit of damage, enough to kill your target in a lot of cases very quickly. However, Lee's ult and Vi's ult are both balanced around the other aspects of their kits which are generally quite different, so comparing the two isn't always incredibly useful or accurate.
ModCaptainMårvelous8 votesYou're right, there are more things to it. Time to double down on spicy memes.
Lee Ult:
Vi Ult:
Perhaps the only thing Vi has over lee in that regard is that she keeps the target locked down and a longer range....one of which is circumvented by Lee having more DPS.
EDIT: Before you bust out the "Vi gets more CDR than Lee", a typical lee build according to Champion.gg AKA the highest ranking players reaches 40% CDR by item 4.
Rouwhorst3 votesDon't forget that lee ult is a knockback whereas vi ult does not really reposition you. Lee can basically ult you under turret and q out again, or ult you into his team.
Photos of Ghosts5 votesWell, VI has higher CC. And that's it.
ModCaptainMårvelous3 votes*Higher hard CC.
Vi has her ult and Q Lee has his ult and E
They both have the same amount of CC, Vi just edges out by having one more hard CC.
Incarceration1 votesVi usually builds Trinity Force. That "Q-tap" you are talking off is much deadlier than Lee's execute.
ModCaptainMårvelous6 votesNo.
Not true in the slightest.
A Q-tap (NO charge time, if Vi is coming right out of ult) deals 50/75/100/125/150 (+0.8 bonus AD) damage
A Lee Q deals 50/80/110/140/170 (+0.9 Bonus AD) damage....on the hadouken The second hit deals 50/80/110/140/170 (+0.9 Bonus AD) damage PLUS 8% missing HP
So 150 + 20 (Trinity force only) = 170 AD from a Vi Q tap vs. 240 + 45 = 285 AD from a Lee Q. Not counting the missing HP damage.
Dominick Destine19 votesWardhop into R QQ killing someone from full health is one of the most cancerous thing ive ever seen in this game.
And to say that takes "skill" lmao its basically as easy as annie point and clicking her whole kit.
This.
annie takes more skill cause she only has 3 abilities and no mobility spell lol
And this.
Plus Annie actually has mana whereas Lee is manaless.... and let's not even get into how Lee has some of the highest base stats and scalings in the game.
sir d wreck1 votesAnnie has mana, Lee has energy... even though he does seem to always be able to use anything all the time already as it is. Maybe Riot should make his energy matter more.
RavenMagus12 votesEnergy only matters on Shen and Akali, TBH.
Dominick Destine22 votesThe original poster is correct.
Lee Sin is faceroll easy to play and brokenly overpowered. He needs some meaningful nerfs, not the pathetic love-taps with counter-buffs ..... for reference purposes; Evelynn once took 7 nerfs in a single patch, then a few more nerfs next patch and then Riot continued to nerf her.
Evelynn's nerfs were to multiple CD, AP scaling, range and base damage of her abilities. She was buried so hard it took a mini rework to make her even kind of viable again. Do THAT to Lee Sin.
TwinkiePro4 votesLee needs some decent nerfs to some early game damage, but would require slight buffs to his late game. It's not a good idea to make a champion decent in one part of the game and then crap in another.
As for Eve, she was far more toxic than Lee. Near perma-stealth is a fairly toxic mechanic.
Dominick Destine10 votesLee needs some decent nerfs to some early game damage, but would require slight buffs to his late game.
That's EXACTLY the problem right there. Stop buffing Lee, just nerf him even once. Real nerfs, not nerf coupled with a buff leading to a net gain, that's not a nerf ... or ultra miniscule nerfs that make no difference.
Decrease his energy regen by half and reduce his movement speed 15 points. There is no reason for him to have one of the highest base MS while having multiple low CD manaless flash moves.
As for Eve, she was far more toxic than Lee.
Nope.
Evelynn at the very least has always had severe vulnerabilities such as; No disables (Post S2 rework Evelynn obviously) Horribly low defensive stats. Horribly low base damage. Some of the worst early clears of any jungler. Extremely low range on abilities. MANA COSTS. etc.
Now I don't mind these weaknesses as an Evelynn main, I play around them .... but Lee Sin has none of these weaknesses or any weakness in general, and on top of this he scales harder than Evelynn .... remember that Lee is brainless easy to play as well. Lee Sin needs nerfs. Real ones.
The jungle was made stronger recently, this was a blanket nerf to all junglers without high damage and sustain. Guess which ones benefit from this?
TwinkiePro1 votesExtremely low range on abilities.
That's what her W is for, much like Lee sins Gap closers. There is also always flash and ghost as well. I'll agree that overall, Lee has much greater mobility
Horribly low defensive stats.
Lee sin has Stats in general compared to Eve, with the only stats better being starting HP and AD Base from 1-18, with MR being the standard 32-53 for both. We can argue about the MS, but Eve does also have a good gap closer, and granted she generally builds 
, she has some great movement and stickyness added on as well.
Horribly low base damage.
She is an assassin so her scaling make up for that. Her Q is also on a very low cooldown, so while 1 Lee Q does (340) + (180% BonusAD) + (8% missingHP) every 7 seconds (no CDR), Evelynn can do ~(240 + (280% bonusAD) + (220% AP)) in the same amount of time. her scalings are much better than Lee's in general.
MANA COSTS
Certainly nowhere near as strong as Energy, she does however have good regen when her passive kicks in. This allows her to wait for a prime opportunity to gank. A good Eve player, such as you, will probably wait a short time before engaging to ensure you have mana available. Lee can gank whenever.
These are what i specifically disagree on, however, the worst offender:
...and on top of this he [Lee Sin] scales harder than Evelynn .... remember that Lee is brainless easy to play as well.
Alright, I'll tackle that first one. He does not scale better than her. He scales until about 15 minutes in, then, falls all the way down, never to rise again. The longer the game goes on, the worse he becomes. Without any sort of lead, even going even, Lee is behind. In the first 15 minutes, his winrate is between 53-~55. 5 minutes later at 20, he has a 52% winrate, then at 25, 49%. It keeps going from there, all the way to below 45% at 50 minutes. This winrate is consistent with all tiers, with minor deviations on where the high is (I picked the highest which is in gold+), and when he is lowest. There is also a strange deviation in Diamond+ of him having a 60% winrate at 50, but I'm fairly confident that the Lee's team won the game rather than himself, but also doesn't represent Lee's late game and is negligible.
Evelynn goes up and down like a roller coaster. Her winrate is also fairly incosistent among tiers, but has a similar path of highs and lows, probably denoting item spikes. In plat+, she has 3 high points and a sharp low. At 10 with ~54%, 25 with 48%, 40 with 52%, and finally ending with a 51% at 50. Diamond+, again, shows some devations from the norm, with a very strong 63% winrate at 10, and doesn't dip to below 50% until after 40, where it spikes again to 60% at 50. Again, diamond+ isn't a good representation, but its still interesting to see how the top players do.
In terms of difficulty, the win curve also shows it quite well. Lee is more difficult on average, what with landing a skillshot (which gets ever so slightly harder as the game goes on with the increase in mobility), ward hopping with good timing, and actually choosing a good time to try for a pick (his damage clearly falls off and cant always finish off his foe later on.)
Lee Sin is not Caitlyn, he is an early game bully that falls off, so to ask for his late game to be gutted is harsh and should not be something we ask for of any champ. If any nerfs were done, I would like for Riot to explorer reducing or removing his Q execute. Baby steps.
Dominick Destine5 votesThat's what her W is for, much like Lee sins Gap closers.
Dark Frenzy is not a flash move.
Unbelievable fail.
There is also always flash and ghost as well.
Lee sin can also have those. Strike 2.
Lee sin has Stats in general compared to Eve
LOL!?!?!?!? Do you really want to compare Lee Sin's ultra high stats?
with the only stats better being starting HP and AD Base from 1-18
And MS. And regen. And armor.
Fail.
We can argue about the MS
No we cannot.
How can you even say such nonsense? one has much higher MS than the other, that's not "arguing" these are facts.
She is an assassin so her scaling make up for that.
Lee sin has higher scaling than Evelynn, on top of having a point-and-click snare, knockback, stun.
Her Q is also on a very low cooldown
Point being? the base damage and scaling on Hate Spike is one of the lowest in the game alongside it being melee range.
so while 1 Lee Q does (340) + (180% BonusAD) + (8% missingHP) every 7 seconds (no CDR), Evelynn can do ~(240 + (280% bonusAD) + (220% AP)) in the same amount of time.
Comparing 1 skill to another 1 skill in another kit is nonsense.
The
her scalings are much better than Lee's in general.
Nope.
I am too lazy to do what MANY others have already done before me, if the numbers are ran, Lee Sin parses as having higher scaling than 90% of the cast of characters, only being cleanly outscaled by Kog, Vayne and Nasus.
Certainly nowhere near as strong as Energy, she does however have good regen when her passive kicks in.
Shadow Walk's passive is atrocious.
Ever since it was nerfed to missing mana (2%) instead of maximum mana (1%) it's just trash....
This allows her to wait for a prime opportunity to gank.
The passive is barely noticeable and does not make up for the many nerfs she received to mana costs.
It certainly isn't favorable/comparable to Lee being manaless.
Alright, I'll tackle that first one. He does not scale better than her.
Stopped reading right there.
I don't care enough to run the numbers, many have done it before me... but Evelynn's scaling is very low, out of all of the assassins she has the lowest scaling by far unless you count extremely long engages with Hate Spike hitting multiple targets, but Evelynn would never survive that long unless she went tank in which case her damage suffers greatly.
Point being, parsing the numbers and especially in practical application, Evelynn has very poor scaling compared to a faceroll op champ like Lee. Only Yasuo is more faceroll and more broken.
TwinkiePro2 votestl;dr. Either be respectful or stop bothering to post.
Dominick Destine3 votesbe respectful or stop bothering to post.
You do not get to decide when others post.
Furthermore "Hurt Feelings" is not an argument. You fail.
TwinkiePro2 votesExtreme bias isn't an argument either. Try to act like an adult for once in your life.
Dominick Destine3 votesExtreme bias isn't an argument either.
I'd be surprised if you knew what bias even was.... but given that it is not presented as an argument, ever, I'd say that it is fairly certain that you do not, or at least you drastically misunderstand the concept.
Try to act like an adult for once in your life.
The irony is off the charts captain !
How amusing.... you have nothing of value to present and your arguments are complete garbage.
Dealth2 votesDominick Destine you will always be known to me as the "Lee Sin-hater-guy". Admit it, you want him removed from the game like I want 
removed from the game. But as someone approaching 800k mastery points on Lee Sin that makes us arch rivals. Like Donald Trump and Mexico.
I am starting to think killed your family or something the way you talk about him... The truth is that it's easy to get ahead with Lee Sin. Resonating strike makes securing kills easy, especially with the extra damage from his ultimate. The real issue is transferring that power to a winnable game which is why Lee Sin consistently has a low win rate.
The reason his "late game" is bad is not his scaling. If he is building damage he can usually assassinate a squishy effectively if you are skilled at him. The true reason his late game sucks is because of grouping. He won't be able to land a Q on the back-line, and even if he does the moment he follows up he is dead before he even finishes resonating strike. Basically all he can do is run up to someone and ult them, and possibly shield an ally. He is not a tank. He has no tank steroids. His W makes him a tank just as much as a 
makes a marksman a tank.
I'm going to ignore everything you said about him being easy, since the only reason you say that is because you dislike him. Instead I'm going to point how you say he needs "meaningful nerfs with no counter-buffs". What part of the nerf on Patch 7.2 was not meaningful and where was the counter-buff?
Dominick Destine8 votesDominick Destine you will always be known to me as the "Lee Sin-hater-guy". Admit it, you want him removed
Nope.
Lee Sin getting nerfed down to a balanced level is all I am asking for.
Like Donald Trump and Mexico.
But Mexico and president Trump are not arch-rivals....
I am starting to think
That's somewhat inappropriate and a weak comparison.
The character is faceroll easy to play and brokenly overpowered, this is fact. It has nothing to do with murder or death in real life.
The reason his "late game" is bad is not his scaling.
Then you have no argument.
I'm going to ignore everything you said about him being easy
Then what you say is irrelevant.
A character with the highest amount of safety nets (Barring yasuo) , ultra high base stats and being manaless at the same time makes him the easiest champ in the game, by far requiring the lowest skill (Again, except for Yasuo). Nerfing Lee Sin would be a great benefit to the game, broken characters are not beneficial to the health of league.
BALDG1VEN BOOMER15 votesB- But... LC$ b1g pl@yz!!
3TWarrior13 votesthe ones that happen after 40 minutes of waiting...
13900 Essence5 votesNever forget Meteos 2k16. Papa bless.
3TWarrior4 votesnever forget when the pro's played just like everyone else...just way way better
Royal Bard11 votesRiot should just remove ward jumping, he and Jax are the only 2 left in the game and the latter could get some QoL changes to get compensated.
Oleandervine4 votes[{quoted}](name=Royal Bard,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5wWflHrT,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2017-02-08T22:33:00.612+0000)
Riot should just remove ward jumping, he and Jax are the only 2 left in the game and the latter could get some QoL changes to get compensated.
Jax needs less of a QoL and more of a new life entirely.
Golden Tager X3 votesNot really, he is one of the most unique and well captured gameplay wise characters in the game.
It doesn't all have to be flashy ass shit like what we get now. Sometimes just bashing someone over the head is what you need.
EROTIC RAID BOSS6 voteslol he just autos you. that isn't unique well captured gameplay. he does need a vgu eventually. he doesn't come close to coming off as a master warrior
BakedLotion8 votesKha’Zix should still be favored in Isolated situations overall, but cutting down Taste Their Fear’s aggressive scaling should give classic duelists (like Elise or Lee Sin) the upper hand when striking first.
ecksdee. They just fucking put elise so people will think it's not about lee sin. They literally straight out said they're nerfing kha because he was beating lee sin in a fight.
also :lee sin is apparently a duelist/tank/support/bruiser/assassin/dps/mage since riot likes to mention all those roles when describing lee sin at different times.
MXXXXXL6 votesalso :lee sin is apparently a duelist/tank/support/bruiser/assassin/dps/mage since riot likes to mention all those roles when describing lee sin at different times.
Riot even said this when they first announced him! https://youtu.be/KrSihRXTrq4?t=12
"Lee sin is a ranged melee tanky dps assassin mage tank support jungler, he excels at everything!".
Brain Errör 4042 votesThat's a troll video.
Kuro Banshee2 votesNo that's actually from the champion spotlight on League's official youtube channel. Like you I thought it was a joke but no they actually say that.
Divewing6 votesEven if they don't nerf him, when we do get 10 bans they won't have a choice.
Arsenic Sulfur1 votesWe're getting it when the new client is required.
Niaphim2 votesWhen? In half a year, after we get a few more broken champions to take those extra bans (hint: 
)?
dunder kill6 votesImplying Lee is the only one who point and clicks to nuke someone. Just a symptom of a bigger problem tbh
3TWarrior1 votesthe problem though is that lee isn't fitting into the same category as he was intended (high level gameplay) and is instead being used to maximum potential in lower levels and decently in high levels
it's true that he is still difficult to learn if you do not lookup how to use his entire combo, but so many people just watch youtube and copy + paste someone else's combo into their game
dunder kill1 votesand is instead being used to maximum potential in lower levels
Straight up BS. No he's not. I leveled up this smurf so I've seen how you people play. You may think you do, but you dont. Period.
Want proof? Lee has a 43% win rate in Bronze. Wow thats a whole lot of "maximum potential in lower levels" hes got there.
3TWarrior8 voteswith respect, league has over 100 million registered players and 30 million of them are probably still active with let's say 10 million players playing it on a consistent basis
if we take that 10% of those players are junglers, that's 1 million, now, lee sin has a pick rate of 25% , so 250,000 players play him consistently
if we use the average win rate of challenger as a representation of what a common, good player of league might do in lower levels compared to lower level players and compare skilled players and unskilled players, that means that lee win has a collective difference 11.45%
so, an unskilled lee player has a win rate of 31.55% but the skilled lee player has a 54.45% chance of victory
if you want me to look up the lowest rank high level league player for a representation of lower skill level, I will
within the top 50 ranked players of lee sin, the lowest ranking diamond 2 has a 52% win rate of 64 games
yet if we look further on, master and even challenger players can have lower than 50% win rate on the champ but the top have above 60%
stats are misleading and even if they represent the average win rate of the champion, they do not change what the champion is capable of in the hands of a skilled player
and the fun part, lee sin is even the most popular champion in challenger
TheI3igDaddy6 votesRemember, Riot is fully aware of Lee Sin. Any other dev team would've taken action and nerfed his kit.
But they also said that they like him in competitive, so by god they will never let him be nerfed out of viability for even one patch. And of course, we can NEVER forget the time that potential nerfs were reverted because 'it'd upset Lee's fanbase'.
Fuck this champion.
Zerglinglol5 votesWe'll see. I think with the Rengar and Kha nerfs we'll see much more sin played. I know I'll be 100% banning him(as I was already).
GULAG 4 U2 votesWell with kha'zix nerfs he's gonna banned less and now that lee's E doesn't reveal invis champ you can pick kha'zix to cockblock lee sin.
Sexy Jack Rabbit4 votesThe funniest thing about Lee Sin to me, is that I wouldn't give a flying fuck about him, if Riot decided to just BUFF other Junglers. I'd like to Shyv, Xin, Nocturne, Amumu, and Hell even the Queen of the Jungle Elise buffed, she can't even keep up with Lee Sin at the moment.
