If i didnt play LoL and only watch LCS, i would think game has 30 champs and only 2 junglers.

PiVoRx·Aug 23, 2016·188 votes·6,861 views

Champion Diversity going well Especially in jungle, vs every fucking playoffs match LoL has less viable heroes to play in competitive than Overwatch

137 Comments

AtanchanAug 23, 201657 votes

{quoted}

LoL has less viable heroes to play in competitive than Overwatch

This joke kind of falls flat when Overwatch doesn't even have 32 heroes.

PiVoRxAug 23, 20168 votes

Well, i was counting junglers into the whole 30, and if you actually math the % of viable champions out of all avainible, then OW wins.

IcyPepperAug 23, 201646 votes

When you have ~22 characters, and two teams of six, that's not exactly difficult...

Not to mention you can change characters based on your needs during the match, right?

How is this a fair comparison.

Pierce The VealAug 23, 20163 votes

{quoted}

When you have ~22 characters, and two teams of six, that's not exactly difficult...

Not to mention you can change characters based on your needs during the match, right?

How is this a fair comparison.

Yeah. Also, the meta in overwatch hasn't completely fleshed out. Back in season 1, there were fifty some champions on release. Back then everything was viable for the most part.

Bots Whilst HighAug 23, 20169 votes

{quoted}

This joke kind of falls flat when Overwatch doesn't even have 32 heroes.

That's the joke, sir.

9001TeemosAug 24, 20162 votes

psssst, it was a joke

General TherittAug 23, 201639 votes

Well, its because League has this system where 'all around' characters are usually best in certain comps. Niche picks very rarely happen and the reason is because... well... they're niche. The chances of seeing a specific pick to run a crazy team-comp very rarely works when there are just all-around champions to deal with it. Gragas because while not the most 'appealing' character, his kit is honestly insane. CC, AoE, a good pick ult, disengage, engage, tankiness, AP burst. the dude has it all. Rek'sai has a bit less, but equally just as good if played properly. If EVERY champion was viable, trust me, there would be some bad-mouthing towards riot instantly. Imagine Master Yi if he was capable of being played competitively instead of a solo-queue powerhouse. He'd be an absolute nightmare to deal with. OR our lord and stacking savior Stack boy Nasus ; where he could still farm in competitive matches unquestioned. There's a reason viability has to come into question. Its also a big reason why new champs and reworked champs are being played so much. because their kits give them much more competitive power, rather than older kits which were more solo-queue focused. Everyone thought Bard was a trolly as hell champ, then he got his buff, and is LCS worthy instantly. Malzahar rework? instantly competitively viable. Ryze rework? Massive playmaker. Taliyah? Get walled. Jhin? Masked murder is my hobby.

There are so many champs you just DON'T want to deal with because if they were capable of being played competitively, cause shenanigans and everyone will clamor for nerfs. Why do you think everyone screams when they see an insane off-meta pick like teemo? Because if he was truly built for competitive without a rework, He'd not only dominate solo queue, and his early game pressure would be Jhin levels of poke and annoyance. And back to niches, they rarely if EVER work. Competitive players work for Results, not wacky team comps of "The stealth troupe" like Uberdanger does, or an entire team comp based around a Galio ult. That's foolish, and just because it has one gimmick doesn't mean they should go ahead and try it. why do that when you can pick Gnar, Gragas, Ashe, Bard, and a Zilean or a Lissandra? They have good teamfight potential and each one brings a variety of abilities and power to the table at any level rather than a Rengar and more power based team comp, where they have to get ahead to even be useful (Hence why Rengar is banned, as he either gets ahead and destroys the game, or falls behind and is basically a CC bot for his bolas.)

Hope ya had fun with some explanation as to why and how characters get consistently picked. Why go for something out there with your team's playoff/semis/finals on the line when you can get good all-around effective characters who provide results? [slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

Serika ZeroAug 23, 20163 votes

kindred + twitch caused all teams at msi to ban those 2 vs the chinese team => doing crazy combo that work = more free in pick and ban phase

MonkeyMadnessAug 23, 20164 votes

Kindred was grade A overpowered for a long time so I'm not sure what you are trying to say here.

Serika ZeroAug 23, 20162 votes

yet twich was not a pick at all, suddenly that tactic got said team wins + freedom in pink and bans

there are good things about coming up with new combos. The reason meta is so stale is due to lcs teams lacking inovation

Hlud07Aug 24, 20163 votes

[{quoted}](name=Serika Zero,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JKt1jPMZ,comment-id=0003000000000000,timestamp=2016-08-23T20:57:50.750+0000)> there are good things about coming up with new combos. The reason meta is so stale is due to lcs teams lacking inovation

I've always believed this as well. You also have these casters (with the exception being Phreak) that just trash any new pick. There is this mentality that the meta champions are the only champions allowed. It really does suck.

The other issue is that Riot does not know how to balance champions. This is evidenced by all the balance changes you see every patch. I want to say Riot does this because they want to control the game. If Riot wants to see a champion played (to increase its sales or just because some guy in the office misses seeing that champion) they will force it into the meta. Vice versa is true. I truly believe the art of balancing is leaving champion tuning alone as much as possible.

ModCaptainMårvelousAug 23, 201611 votes

The overwatch joke doesn't work too well when you consider two heroes have like 100% pick rates in almost every comp. Third place has a 75% pick rate. It's actually really shitty.

LeetriAug 23, 20163 votes

And until Blizzard adds another hero that has a team-wide AoE speedup Lucio is an absolutely mandatory pick. Or I guess if they were to completely destroy him so you're better off being AFK than play him, but I doubt that will happen.

moonbornAug 23, 201610 votes

you are right. and another thing is that.. some champions that are viable/very good in LCS, can be really terrible in solo queue( Azir )

Aatrox Mid 1v5Aug 23, 20163 votes

{quoted}

you are right. and another thing is that.. some champions that are viable/very good in LCS, can be really terrible in solo queue( )

azir isnt a good example. he can do fine in solo que, he just has a high skill cap. but champions like kalista or reksai do terrible in solo que because of how good they were in LCS

AstôlfoAug 23, 20164 votes

"can do fine in solo que"

http://champion.gg/champion/Azir http://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/azir/platinum http://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/azir/diamond

Spaceman5pffAug 24, 20162 votes

please stop saying skill cap when you dont know what it means. Skill cap refers to what is possible with a champion, it is a maximum limit. Skill FLOOR is the minimum requirement to play a character effectively, it is like a standard transmission. Sure anybody can drive a standard transmission, but if they dont have practice it will be choppy and ineffective, just like a new azir player.

Yasuo has a high skill floor and a high cap. Draven has a high skill floor and a low cap.

Annie has a low floor AND a low cap. Caitlyn has a low floor and a high cap.

TeCoolMageAug 24, 20161 votes

I'm so confused by your examples...

Spaceman5pffAug 24, 20162 votes

Probably because you don't understand the difference between a roof and a ceiling.

TeCoolMageAug 25, 20161 votes

No, I think you might be talking about the second floor because your examples aren't correctly reflecting the minimum skill required.

Spaceman5pffAug 26, 20162 votes

Well if you don't understand that annie is extremely easy to pick up and has almost 0 meaningful variability in her play patterns, then I don't know how else to explain it yo you.

IS3E531E3F964391Aug 23, 201610 votes

wow so much diversity in overwatch

https://www.overbuff.com/blobs/1kefH6WJFBv.png

RiviniAug 23, 20167 votes

This has been the case for the last 3 or so seasons. It's nothing new.

manbearswineAug 23, 20164 votes

Look, either you balance around winrates in plat OR around competitive, if you nerf champions with 54% winrate who barely see competitive play as is then guess what? They aren't going to.

You can't have your cake and have it too

competitive variety
winrates not going much above 50% pick one.

KinetikaAug 23, 20164 votes

In a game with 132 options, you can expect a standard deviation in champs that are played at the LCS level (or challenger) tiers of play.

You mention 30 champs...that's about 25% of the total champ pool. Let's say you break a bell curve into 5 parts:

5: the lowest end of the spectrum...about 2% of champs 4: the second lowest tier of champs...about 15% 3: middle of the road champs....66% of champs (about 87 champs) 2: second highest tier (about 20 champs) 1: highest tier 2-3 champs

I'm pointing this out because probability and statistics means that your statement will almost always be true, but the champ pool will be altered slightly due to introduction of new champs.

The distribution, however, is according to which champs are better than others. Metas shift, buffs and nerfs come along with patches, but rest assured, when a champ falls out of the meta, a new champ(s) will replace them.

So if you were an LCS caliber player, why would you choose any champs outside of buckets 1 & 2?

Make no mistake, any game with this much variety will have the same type of situation occur in competition.

dEAdbUsAug 24, 20162 votes

In dota more than 80% champions were picked on last tournament. In lol like 55%. So your words "any game" are not correct.

KinetikaAug 24, 20164 votes

There is a 44 champ difference between LoL and Dota 2. League has 50% more champs to choose from. When Dota matches LoL in terms of number of champs, let's re-evaluate.

In any case, by your own statistics (where did you get those btw? proof or it didn't happen...) Dota still has 20% of champs that are NOT picked in a tournament.

That's roughly the equivalent of picking from buckets 1-3 in my example of a standard deviation...not too far fetched, but there are still "20%" of Dota champs that aren't getting played. So my words "any game", are in fact, correct. It may not be an identical percentage, but there are champs that aren't seeing play. That doesn't make the champs better or worse in either game - they're just different games. I've played Smite quite a bit - there are champs that are quite similar in terms of abilities, and which gets chosen is based more on personal preference than champion dominance. I'm sure that happens to an extent in Dota as well.

Still, doesn't make me wrong, just means that

Dota doesn't have the same variety that League does
There is a group of champs that aren't being played competitively

dEAdbUsAug 24, 20163 votes

I was playing both dota and lol for years and imho dota champions are more varying.

"20%" - I think mobas are hard to balance in terms of game design, and 20% is a great number.

Your bucket stuff doesn't work in dota, because most champions have hard counters, and even if you'll pick broken op, you can be counterpicked and lose game.

League is maybe 20 champions ahead of dota, not 50.

Proofs will be later, when I'll reach my pc.

TeCoolMageAug 24, 20162 votes

In DoTA 2, all heroes feel like playing against Teemo though...

Gamer Girl KatieAug 23, 20163 votes

So once they nerf rek sai who will it be?

LatetotheRaceAug 23, 20161 votes

They could pick a number of champions back up. Elise and then I realized I can't stand watching the LCS and couldn't think of anymore.

BisaknospAug 23, 20161 votes

elise falls off extremely hard though more (and even earlier) than lee or panth

BellowsAug 23, 20162 votes

{quoted}

elise falls off extremely hard though more (and even earlier) than lee or panth

She doesnt though, why does everyone think that? She can hyper carry games. even into the late late game.

zepdrixAug 23, 201614 votes

I think there is confusion about what is meant by "falls off". People throw that phrase around a lot without any explanation.

Elise certainly falls off in terms of team impact. She doesn't have a power ultimate like Hecarim or Amumu. But Elise DOES NOT fall of in terms of damage. Her damage scales really really well.

Only Play DariusAug 23, 20164 votes

She isn't useless late game, few champs are. However, late game isn't her high point. Yes she can make an amazing pick with her stun but she has limited AOE and her spiderlings (which are the majority of her damage in spiderform) fall to any area damage

stealthfox94Aug 23, 20163 votes

You act as if this is new. Champion diversity has NEVER been good in competitive play. If anything it's slightly better now than it was in S4.

VvVVvVAug 24, 20163 votes

And if I didnt watch LCS i would think the only junglers were Graves , MasterYi and Shaco

EDIT: lol speak of the devil.....rank is back up and my 1st game ...a Yi jungle http://prntscr.com/c9rn0a

not knocking the champ but like i said...every game.

ManegusterAug 25, 20163 votes

Here is a list of champs I didn't even know existed until i hit the Emote/Icon button for this post. ( Im silver so based on what I see but i play mostly norms so every elo is in here pretty much) Aatrox Quinn Urgot Rammus
Surprisingly I don't see him in games anymore in my elo Azir Corki < Dang where has this guy been Fiddlesticks < Hey its uncle fiddle shows up once a month and doesn't stay long Jayce < The friend you had in high school and when he became a tech wiz you never saw him again Lissandra < only if they first picked zed Zed Malzahar < I thought they got arrested and put in perma ban prison Fizz < He pressed his button to take him self out of the game and I never see him anymore unless my screen is grey Mordekaiser < Only if they want to play jg and never live to tell the tale Nasus < I threw a bone when I started playing in January I saw him run after it. I am now silver three 7 months later I'm still putting up missing dog posters since February Jax < He blew out his lantern and now we can't see him in the shadows Skarner < He got left behind on the dominion map he couldn't tell the difference between the towers and his gem things and got taken out of the game with dominion Kindred < Did the band split up or does no one play them anymore DrMundo < Got taken out of the game do to copyright claims by Marvel Kalista < Ghostbusters got her sometime recently Swain < Shocked he got nerfed a bit to much now only see him once a week when I visit the my Dads house Sion < Now a rare support pick and no longer a fun top lane apparently I still like him. Will hopefully be played more with the new splash arts Galio < He went to play Demon Souls fell in love the Gargoyle bosses Karthus < Someone buried him while he was sleeping, now in a grave somewhere in China Poppy < Am I one of two people who plays this on a regular bases Teemo < No wait my bad he just stood still in lane he is still played for some reason

LirikAug 23, 20162 votes

i used to play league thanks to DynamicQ which cured my addiction (my mom was asking me earlier this year "why arent you that much on computer as you used to do" anwsered her you can thanks DynamicQ mom) now when i need some league i just watch the lcs to get my dose and to realise how this game is bad.

CriticalTrollAug 23, 20164 votes

{quoted}

i used to play league thanks to DynamicQ which cured my addiction (my mom was asking me earlier this year "why arent you that much on computer as you used to do" anwsered her you can thanks DynamicQ mom) now when i need some league i just watch the lcs to get my dose and to realise how this game is bad.

So why the fuck are you here? To share your worthless opinion? It's not even on the topic with the post. I mean you said this game is bad so you must have been a pretty huge moron to play a bad game in the first place.

LirikAug 24, 20162 votes

to try to help out some brainwashed useless kiddo like you you use the board as an insulting playground look like your nickname is like this for a reason so i won't take you to seriously hahahahaha

KaiokoAug 23, 20162 votes

Have you actually played overwatch?

KeìronAug 23, 20162 votes

Riot must balance for both competitive and casual play, and that's NOT easy.

SnowplosionAug 24, 20162 votes

Well, at least patch 6.17 is here. It should help.

ABSINTHEgedAug 24, 20162 votes

Well then good news! They gutted gragas! =D

UrellesAug 23, 20161 votes

This is what happens when your company spends the first 3 years of its game hastily releasing new champions every 2 weeks. Every champion ends up similar and it all turns into stat crunchy by the pros.

Q = Spammable or engage W = Self buff or quirky gimmick E = Dash or CC

This is why half the original champs need reworks. Sometime after thier release Riot released a clone that did everything way better. It seems every character has a snare or root now, a run speed boost or dash, and some gimmick to stack damage. Remove their passives and you got a bunch of cookie cutter champs with varying ults for uniqueness. I've been playing Heroes of the Storm and Vain Glory this season and they slowly release champs and each one has a completely unique effect on the game, in style of play, with very few breaching into the OP realm.

AcidTheWarlockAug 24, 20162 votes

Oh, you think Rito's design is bad???? There's a reason I stopped playing Smite, and that's because every god is the same.

Like literally.

There's no real difference besides a few nuances in usage or role, you could take any mage and they all do the same.

Most assassins are the same, with a little gimmick so they aren't the same.

Tanks are semi-diverse, but still not all that great.

ADCs are literally broken to hell and back, and there's 3 or 4 that just rule the meta ATM.

And that's why I'm here now.

And I'm glad that there are reworks for the old and outdated champs.

I wasn't there for any other season, but this doesn't seem too bad.

UrellesAug 25, 20162 votes

Never gave smite the time of day. It's controls didn't seem smooth to me. Just seemed bland.

I'm glad that champs are getting reworks too, but most of my favorites are getting completely changed. Shen support used to be my main bot lane tank with heal. Now I cant heal my ADC and he has this weird gimmicky damage and shield system that requires you to constantly move in circles around the enemy player. Karma was great as a close range burst healer mage. Now she's a range poky support mage with no group heal potential.

In the end LoL is way better than many other MOBAs out there. But out of the big 3, I think they are faltering this year. Their designs today are great to an extent; but many champs have the typical spam move, snare move, self buff move.