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Exhaustive list of what makes Ranged carries not mandatory in Dota2

Best princess EU··73 votes·4,324 views

most famous one: turn rate

but you might ignore: -longer tower range, making poking a melee under tower harder -Doran shield(in dota) blocking damage on AA, blocks more damage on melee heroes than ranged heroes -better creep aggro: creeps will target you immediatly when you click on an enemy hero, their aggro range is also higher. this makes abusing melees harder -better creep in general: they are faster than any heroes at lvl 1 and have 30 ad -better creep blocking, if a ranged hero stands inside a creepwave to try to abuse a melee they will be blocked. In league creep blocking is completly random and unforseenable. -Nothing that massively increases the AD of a ranged champion at level 1 to increase their poke, no AD runes or doran blade, they all start with an item increasing damage to minions, and potions -INSANE MANA COST on every heroes

all of this makes a melee hero able to lane against a ranged hero it has nothing to do with the ability of taking towers marksmen, ranged carries in any moba aren't requiered to take objectives

the reason league cannot afford melee carries is laning phase.

pick a melee carry in league, try to lane BOTLANE against a half brained support+adc and tell me if you manage to get 10 creeps i'm waiting

by the way, you also can't lane with a mage against them, because adcs generally have insignifcant mana cost unlike mages, so they will naturally win lane against you until you buy mana/mana regen and bully you as they sustain your poke with a support and you will end up out of mana, mana potions got removed for some reasons, and their AA cost no mana.

f u n

point of this thread? :

it's incredibly easy to not make marksmen not mandatory in league but riot does not want to do it, because....?

favoritism

162 Comments

Bobovich36 votes

Tried playing Dota2 for a few weeks...

One of the things that really bugged me about it was all the Mele-DPS-Tank-Assasin-Carry-Stunlock champs ... is that shit better?

Nea1048 votes

Actually it's basically a stun-fest after 15 minutes.

Mister Dark23 votes

Dota is 100x more balanced then league but it's just so out of date and clunky I had to stop playing it, if league and dota combine it would be best game in the world

KoKoboto9 votes

I am totally on your level maaaaaan. Take all my upvote.

[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

Kovorix3 votes

I found it "slow" compared to league it was like i could take a nap and still wont miss anything

Theorchero15 votes

I love dota, but god fucking damn I hate how they use turnrate for balance purposes.

Like, I 100% understand it's a design decision and it's used as a very effective balance lever. But it feels like it's so damn clunky.

TwitchInMyPants4 votes

{quoted}

I love dota, but god fucking damn I hate how they use turnrate for balance purposes.

Like, I 100% understand it's a design decision and it's used as a very effective balance lever. But it feels like it's so damn clunky.

This. I played more Lycan than anyone and even if it benefited him it makes kiting feel like this committed process where if you turn too late you're fucked and its a bit obnoxious.

Mens Hair Club14 votes

there's a lot of ways to make ranged carries less cancer, but if riot wanted to change them that way they've had 7 seasons to try even once

Bobovich4 votes

You have a short memory ... remember the adc in 2k17 meme?

Mens Hair Club29 votes

adcs weren't bad, lethality was op

and there were plenty of adcs abusing it, too

WoonStruck19 votes

Were ADCs any less viable? No. They just required more peel.

If you'd remember (funny because of your 'short memory' jab), the meta adapted towards supports/mids that could keep ADCs alive.

Mizaya9 votes

No, they required no peel, they consisted of Varus and Jhin taking shots from 1k+ range away. Hence the mage support meta.

Bonipherus13 votes

[commenting so I can find this later]

Firethorn8 votes

Legit

ModAcademy Kayn11 votes

You are aware that Dota melee's actual kits are also a reason why they can deal with Ranged carries yeah? You're looking only at what League and Dota share in common, Creeps, towers, and starting items, without looking at the actual melee. You're also forgetting that Blink Dagger exists for a reason in Dota.

Mens Hair Club1 votes

master yi needs an AOE stun to be viable carry

ModAcademy Kayn2 votes

Nah, he just needs a competent team, and honestly, is a product of old design. Yi ain't the best example.

Mens Hair Club5 votes

yi needs chronosphere

Best princess EU9 votes

no melee carry builds blink dagger in dota except sven in some cases

blink dagger is an initation tool that brings no damage, it's the worst thing you can propose to a melee carry without saying that a lot of them are already mobile like melee carries in league

antimage does not build it spectre does not build it phantom assassin does not build it troll warlord (who's melee in 70% of the time) is does not build it

blink dagger is bought on tanks that want to start the fight with cc like tideshunter earth shaker centaur warruner

so thank you but i know how dota works

Spank the Fox4 votes

Anti-Mage doesn't build it because he literally has a better version built into his kit. Poor choice.

PA doesn't build it because she has a targetted blink in her kit. Again, poor choice.

Spectre doesn't build it because Spectre has a global teleport to any hero. (Less) poor choice.

So that leaves us with Troll Warlord and he's better off abusing the fact he carries with just 1-2 items anyways, which is what you were bitching about League.

Weird.

Nosnide10 votes

Is DOTA better in your opinion? I am legit getting tired of League or at the very least need a couple of months away from it.

Magical Zoe10 votes

Dota 2 is far better balanced wise. But the game is mechanically harder and takes some getting used to.

NineTailedMystic5 votes

Too bad the heroes are boring and uninteresting. The 3 heroes I like out of the entire roster: Omniknight, Phoenix, Wraith King.

Magical Zoe15 votes

Compared to League, Dota's champions are more unique in terms of kit design.

NineTailedMystic4 votes

Yea, Wraith King with his 3 passive abilities. Such good design :^). Besides I'm talking overall design, not just kits.

Magical Zoe10 votes

Unique overall design? (some examples of design that are far better than league) Faceless Void Io Silencer Clockwerk Treant Protector Legion Commander Earth Spirit Invoker Puck Meepo Oracle Bounty Hunter

NineTailedMystic10 votes

I wouldn't say far better than League, but most of them are unique, yes.

Catastrop3 votes

{quoted}

Unique overall design? (some examples of design that are far better than league) Faceless Void Io Silencer Clockwerk Treant Protector Legion Commander Earth Spirit Invoker Puck Meepo Oracle Bounty Hunter

Shocked by the lack of our lord and saviour, the Grand Magus Rubick in your list.

SanKakU3 votes

I like Rubick just fine but I wouldn't call him a fantastic design for a character. But of course, I definitely think he's unquestionably healthier for the game than some of those characters he picked out. I don't think there's anything in particular that's wrong with him, other than his dumb Q cliffing shenanigans.

SanKakU3 votes

Faceless Void is like a cross between Bard and Xin Zhao. If overloaded means better, then sure, okay. Io is fine. Silencer is fine. Rattletrap is cool. I can see how he's a lot more exciting and fun than someone like Twisted Fate, that's for sure. Treant Protector? I actually am not a fan of his current incarnation and think he needs some buffs. Also, his ultimate is stronger than any ultimate that I can think of in LoL. Legion Commander, definitely some nice design here. Earth Spirit? No, this guy is really lame. I don't like Storm either, although Ember isn't so bad. Invoker is overrated but he's still a cool design. Puck is even more overrated and I actually like the design of Brightwing from HotS a lot more, but of course that game sucks now because toxic community. Meepo is not well-designed IMHO and gives a lot of needless complexity to the game. However, I don't dislike the hero personally, I just see him as a plague for the game as a whole as it fosters bad attitudes in the players. Oracle is again not well designed. I don't even know why you put him on this list. If I had a top ten worst characters list for LoL, HotS, and Dota, this guy would definitely make it, might even be top 3. He's just a really dumb character IMO. Bounty Hunter? He's amazing, I love him. He can be a tad problematic for the attitudes of players but he's definitely not a primary cause for it.

Characters that I would put up as great examples of fantastic design? Morphling Vengeful Spirit Slark Riki new Phantom Lancer Crystal Maiden Necrophos Sand King Warlock original Elder Titan(never released in Dota 2 sadly) Dirge, the Undying Lina Omniknight Wrath King

And that's about it I guess other than the ones you listed that I agreed with: Io, Silencer, Rattletrap, Legion Commander, Invoker, Bounty Hunter for TL;DR. There are some other champions that I either like or don't like, but those are the ones that I would definitely keep.

RavenMagus17 votes

There's a lot of things I found less fun about Dota.

As much as I hate the carries we have in League right now, at least they require some teamwork to keep them alive. A carry that gets ahead in Dota becomes an unstoppable spell immune monster, typically with some combination of stunlocking, long range flashing, and supreme tankiness.

Dota is a game of extremely hard counters. Like how crowd control lasts an extremely long time (there are legit 4 second stuns), and one of the main ways to get around them is to become completely immune to them.

SanKakU4 votes

I honestly feel like Dota much more than LoL for the things you point out here and for other things will inevitably result in a situation where the worst players make the better players unable to win. In LoL, I feel like it's a lot easier to manage 'dead weight' on your team, but maybe I just haven't played enough ranked in LoL yet and my perception is warped by my extensive experience in Dota ranked.

The map seems bigger in LoL, so you can't run and hide so easily from an overfed/superior opponent in Dota. It even has haste runes(temporary power up, think of it as a jungle plant that gives you Singed's ultimate) and double damage runes(ADC's wet dream) as if the smaller map weren't enough of a problem.

RavenMagus3 votes

It's a different design philosophy, that's for sure.

One thing that is interesting about Dota is that if your team focuses on an opponent who's fed, you can actually shut them down since they lose gold when they die. However, if they've spent their gold, they become an unstoppable killing machine and there's no longer anything you can do.

Snowballing is insane in Dota. The map's not really that much smaller, but it is like you say - there's a lot of ways to get places faster, like those haste runes, along with really insane initiation tools, like Blink Dagger that offers a flash range that's nearly the size of the screen - not to mention absolutely ridiculous things like Spiritbreaker.

I actually got ahead once as Ancient Apparition, bought an early Aghanim's, and I shut one of the opposing players completely out of the game because I could kill him in his fountain from across the map with my ult the second he respawned every time. That's the kind of shit you can do in Dota.

MLDzXnRRR14 votes

No, the game is good, but it is not better. The community is way worse, you can lose in hero select, there are way more hackers and scripters, also lacks depth in hero design (if you are OK playing prerework Sion, this is the game for you), supports are ward bitches (think season 1-2 in Lol) with brown boots and occasional item. The pluses are: more varied strategy, items with more actives, several micro-intensive heroes that control multiple units, the games aren't stomps, so you can comeback anytime, if you play well.

Kai Guy2 votes

Id argue that its hard to come back if the enemy comp has a hard carry snowballing and I find it hard to feel impactful as almost every ability oriented hero whos unable to use auto attacks once your powerspike ends. Very few int champions scale well into late and your pretty much stuck playing around teammates and praying with less options in items to power spike back into the game.

KONO RUBICK DA2 votes

supports are x15 more broken than carries until 20 min in doto

they do not need items

NineTailedMystic4 votes

Did someone say a 300 heal/AoE pure damage nuke?

Mens Hair Club1 votes

wish lol supports were as interesting

all we get is heal/shield/CC/dmg buff (onhit ofc so marksmen use it better)

Kai Guy4 votes

So, if you remove Buffs, CC, And protection from a supports kit but don't want it to have damage built in as well, what exactly do you want to see? Some one who spams debuffs that don't cc? Also... uh... how many supports in dota would even fit this requirement? Theres all of 5 champions tagged with support that are not tagged with nuker. Abbadon. Enchantress, Chen, Treant And Warlock.

Or alternatively did I misunderstand you and what your saying is you want to see supports in league have high damage early game. In which case would it be fair for me to point to the fun times everybody had back in the mage support meta? Annie Brand Velkoz Zyra ?

MagicFlyingLlama9 votes

Why would anyone want to make them non-mandatory? Why mess up the meta and turn it into a zero skill juggerfest of stunlocks and pure snowballing?

Best princess EU50 votes

the meta is already zero skill, this game is cancer with rightclicking carries everywhere that lucian and kog went mid to abuse mages

stunlocks? are you freaking serious mate? you're talking as if it's not already the case

{quoted}

Why would anyone want to make them non-mandatory?

i don't know, when something literally didn't change since 7 years it becomes incredibly exhausting and boring

ModAcademy Kayn16 votes

Because skill is only demonstrated by skillshots, yes. Totes.

Best princess EU4 votes

[deleted]

ModAcademy Kayn14 votes

Aye, I never said I agreed with him. I don't, because he's as hyperbolic as you. Skill is more than "can I land my skillshot". While that itself is skill, it is not the sole deciding aspect of it. There is as much skill in knowing how much your damage rotation will do, when to bail out, who to target, how to initiate a fight, how to zone, etc, as there is in hitting a skillshot.

Skill is not solely defined by "landing" skillshots, and frankly you lessen your point by saying that Marksmen require no skill. They do, it's just their area of skill is not in landing skillshots, but elsewhere. Normally in kiting, positioning, and choosing targets.

And not to bring up dead arguments, but ah yes, I remember you Mr. still hasn't given me a reason why they should fall off late game, nice to see you and your remarkably long name.

ProfDrDeath9 votes

That's far from exhaustive, though.

Also, you forgot some of the more important aspects of it:

  • The primary attribute system makes double-dipping into tankiness and damage possible.
  • There's only one directly scaling resistance type (Armor).
  • The level cap is 25 - 7 levels more of base stats.
  • Ability damage doesn't scale (or, at least hardly scales).

Combining all of these means there is a point in the game where tankiness outpaces burst damage, meaning that these melee carry champions will survive long enough that they can get into attack range and get the lifesteal ball rolling. Remember, the biggest disadvantage of melee fighters, both in games and in real life, is that they have to move into the enemy's range to do things.

Contrast League, where ability damage scales thanks to AP (and sometimes AD).

Onandaga2 votes

{quoted}

  • The primary attribute system makes double-dipping into tankiness and damage possible.

Hence why I main Nasus.

flibitydoo2 votes

a few more points

for mid lane, in dota 2 there's a high ground mechanic that functionally acts like having two long brushes which allows melees to lane against ranged in mid.

Ironically to the boards, just like in league you can and will get dumpstered by aggressive ranged heroes if you are a melee.

But a nice option you can do is you can buy a quelling blade+stout shield and farm the jungle since jungle camps respawn very quickly in dota. Quickly being, every minute (everytime the seconds part of the timer reads :00, all empty jungle camps will spawn a new camp, so you can clear a camp every minute, and there are like 6 camps + 2 ancient camps meaning there's a lot of alternatives to laning)

also you can pull your minion wave into the jungle, to help clear the jungle which will cause the enemy minions to die under your tower as well as deny CS to the enemy

but the thing that really does make melee power farming a viable option is just the fast spawning rates of the jungle. Of course, to counter balance such a high rate of income, there's gold loss on death (note that you don't lose the gold you got for killing heroes, just for passive farming) and also the items in dota are much more expensive to build.

Kai Guy2 votes

Also neglected that jungle is optional and that despite melee hard carry's being viable vast majority require being run in a 2 man lane to be able to scale.

Poske1 votes

Funny how you forgot Turn rates the most important factor

Melee champions can be played in botlane

Well Yasuo can

Catastrophic9 votes

Turn rates is the first thing he mentioned in the thread e.e

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