Karma still suffers from the issues she had before the rework

Koechophe··1 votes·886 views

To quote scarizad *"Old Karma had issues. What were they?

Karma's kit was in a weird place, but her ultimate was especially problematic. Her base abilities didn't feel impactful and only felt effective when supercharged by Mantra. On top of that, when Karma had two charges of Mantra, we had to make both of them weaker to compensate for players double casting empowered spells.

Why was she hard to place in team comps?

Karma had the offensive tools to support her team in small skirmishes but not the powerful defensive abilities she needed to protect a team. Also, her all-purpose abilities are so broad they never felt like the right choice in any situation. All in all, Karma lacked direction.

Why isn't Karma fun?

The effectiveness of Karma's abilities relied too heavily on your teammates knowing all their nuances. No matter how hard you were carrying with Karma, your teammates had to be just as good with her for you to be super effective. When an ally's confused about whether or not he should run from or pass through your Spirit Bond, we probably made a mistake."*

Tl;DR: Karma's base abilities didn't feel impactful enough, she was spread out across the board too equally to really feel impactful, she was too team reliant and while potent in skirmishes, she didn't have the ability to teamfight very well.

Despite the rework, she still suffers from most of these symptoms today, which is why she's an underplayed champion resting at about a 47% win ratio.

1) Base ability impact Riot attempted to add impact to her base abilities by redistributing cc and utility. However, at the present moment, they still feel very weak, especially without mantra. Her q feels weak because it's deceptively hard to land, due to a slow missle speed and a low area of impact that is almost impossible to hit if someone is on the other side of minions. Even when you do land it, the damage is much lower than her previous Q and the slow is so brief that it almost feels like it doesn't even exist. Her W just feels weak in any situation except a 2v1. It's tether range is laughable, and it takes longer to charge up than it snares someone until the last rank. It also has no cc, so someone with higher movespeed can simply walk out of range. The rise in mobility also has killed the effectivity of this move, as any speed boost or blink invalidates it. The damage isn't really much at all, and it can't be used to peel for the adc, because 2 seconds is more than enough time to kill them. It's long cooldown for low reward adds to this feeling Her E feels okay, but the shield strength is objectively very low, and the shield buff isn't as strong as other champions, like Janna or orianna.

If you objectively look at her base abilities compared to almost anyone else, they are weak. She has low damage, low utility and barely any cc in her kit.

2) Too spread out Karma's skillset is almost like a "jack of all trades" kit that ultimitely tries to be good at everything which results in no clear strengths. She has moderate amounts of damage, moderate amounts of cc and moderate amounts of utility with moderate amounts of range and tankiness. One could argue that she has no real weaknesses, but the issue is, she also has no real strengths.

  1. she doesn't have high burst. Basically all of her burst is compacted into her matrad Q. The issue is, once you land that, you're done damaging people. It's almost impossible to finish off a smart opponent on karma, because her only real burst is not only unreliable (people can literally walk out of her matrad Q without a speed boost or even boots), but it's one skill that won't kill anyone except soraka bot.
  2. She doesn't have high CC Her strongest cc is a 1 person 2 second snare, and then her only other cc is an "aoe" 25% slow that lasts 1.5 seconds. Compared to supports like nami, sona, janna, or even ap mids like lux, orianna or swain, she has weak cc.
  3. She doesn't have high utility Like all of her damage is compacted into her Q, all of her utility is compacted into her E. The speed boost is nice, but it's just that; a 1 person speed boost, or aoe if you burn mantra on it. No one would call that an objectively high amount of utility, especially compared with other supports, like janna or sona or nami, or compared with other ap mids, like orianna or morgana. And the issue is, every bit of utility in her kit can also be bought through items, so if your team really needs an aoe speedboost or aoe shield, you can get that via items.
  4. she's not inherently tanky She does have a shield, though that generally should go on someone else if you're supporting, and she does have her W, which restores missing health, but that doesn't change the fact that she's incredibly squishy and susceptible to burst. Karma is not a "tanky" champion, and she lacks inherent tankiness, like many supports or ap mids. She's tankier than some, but not enough for it to be a strong attribute.
  5. Her kit necessitates too many stats for optimization. Her skills require some level of AP to be effective, because she has objectively higher ap ratios than she does base damages. However, her W requires health to be effective, or else the heal is weak, her shield doesn't necessarily require resistances to be effective, but they're the only way to truly optimize a shield. Her Ult and high cooldowns require max cdr as soon as possible, and her mana costs require mana regen. Beyond that, her low ranges (especially on her W) require tankiness from her if you want her to be effective. So essentially, optimization comes from building AP, CDR, MR, Armor, Health, and Magic Regeneration, which is just too many stats to require from anyone. Karma suffers from heavy role confusion, because she is baseline good at everything, while she truly excels at nothing. She can do every role decently well except adc, but it's questionable as to whether she can excel at any role.

3) Too team reliant Karma is, at the moment, still a pretty team reliant champion. Her W is almost useless without a team to support it; she doesn't have enough burst in her kit to optimize a snare, nor does she have the tools to make sure it actually works. Her E and the mantra is team reliant, because it not only requires situations of proper grouping for it to be effective, it also requires decent gameplay for it to be worthwile. Her Q, too, is only really useful if someone uses the slow and/or keeps the champion inside the blast range, although karma can do that so long as the opponent has less movespeed than her and can't escape the W. Bottom line, 2/3 of her skills require team play to be optimized and she doesn't really have the tools to get uber-fed or burst down people full/0 like many ap mids (this can all happen if your opponents are really stupid, yes, but that's true of every champion) and karma has an exceedingly low "carrying capacity".

**4) Skirmishes > teamfights **Any karma player can attest to the fact that this is still true. Her kit doesn't have "high impact" spells, like sona's ult or viegar's cage. Instead, it has low cooldown mantra with lower impacts. This leads her to really shine in skirmishes, not teamfights. In 1 spell, champions like janna, orianna and morgana can contribute to a teamfight more than karma usually can. Because she lacks high impact, she lacks decent teamfighting abilities and is better off in skirmishes.

What to do about it I think the biggest problem with karma is that when she was remade, they didn't want to leave out any of her "strengths" and so they basically tried to give her a baseline of every strength there is, which resulted in a kit that's too spread out across the board. The thing that really sets her behind is that despite the changes, she still feels lackluster and low impact, because she doesn't have one thing or a few things that set her apart in any way. The only way to really make her a worthwhile champion is to give her clear strengths and clear weaknesses. Here are a few options:

  1. Increase the CD of her ult significantly and add more impact Right now, her ult isn't on par with other ult cds: it's significantly lower. This means that it is not allowed to be nearly as strong as other ults. To make it more impactful, increase the CD and then make it as powerful as other ultimates, so that she has a stronger teamfight potential and so that her "strengths" are more of what she decides to use her ult on. Make her Q a lot more damaging in a lot bigger area, like other AP mid's ults, or else MUCH higher damaging to a single target, with more reliability. Make her W create bonds with all enemies in the area and heal karma for each one that's snared at the end with diminishing returns. Make her E also knock up all enemies hit, or make it a strong, aoe heal instead. If karma's ult were made into a real ult, it would help solve her issue of low impact, and it would help her teamfighting and supporting abilities immensely.
  2. Remove "half benefits" of her spells to add strength. Karma doesn't need a slow on her Q. If removing that could add strength, go for it. Karma also doesn't really need a 1.5 second speed boost on her E. If removing that could add more peel or more utility, do it. Karma doesn't need these half strengths on her kit, she needs strong impacts.
  3. Fix her W. The leash range on that spell is simply too low, and it feels horrible at any level other than max. Every other decent support has "1 point wonder" skills, that provide full utility (with an increased cooldown) with only 1 point, such as nami's bubble or thresh's hook. Karma's W should be that spell for her. Increase the starting cooldown, but set the snare to a flat 2 seconds at all ranks and increase the leash range, so that people with janna's passive can't just walk out of it instantly.
  4. Solidify her role When reworked, riot tried to preserve that she could go mid, top or support. However, they all require such vastly different things that it ends up distributing strengths across the board. Top lane requires tankiness and sustain, so they gave her sustain on W and tankiness on E. Mid lane requires burst and waveclear, so they gave her an aoe Q. Bot requires utility, so they gave her a snare, a speedboost and a measly slow. All of these are substantially weaker than the people who are "dedicated" mids, tops and supports have. So, much like they did with AP ezreal, it needs to be decided what she'll play, and she needs to be balanced around that role. If she's going to be a support, take away her self heal and add more utility and damage. If she's going to be a mid, take away some of her utility and add more damage and waveclear. If she's going to be a top, shave off some damage and add more tankiness and sustain.

Tl;DR: Karma is an excellent concept, but in trying to give her a baseline of every strength, she is too diversified and truly excels at nothing. She doesn't have anything that sets her apart, causing her to feel lackluster. Despite the rework, karma still suffers from the same problems she suffered from before. She is not necessarily "weak", but she is lackluster, and in need of polish to make her shine.

Kindly upvote and bump if you agree, or if you disagree, explain why. Thanks for reading.

4 Comments

EmWtTxCTGL3 votes

Have you played karma support?

Because she's insanely good. Low impact? Wat. No. NO. nope.

Her shield and the fact she can instantly heal 20% hp and another 20% if she stays in range make her amazingly strong.

Her Q's low CD and slow makes her an insane poke able to chunk down enemies and leave them slowed allowing for her ADC to follow up.

You say Q's hard to land...I'm so confused, that shit is as easy as ezreal Q to land. It has a pretty big hitbox, moves very fast, and on top of that has splash damage so you can hit people standing in their minions. If you have trouble hitting her Q, it sounds like the problem is you, not the champion.

I play her support but can get solo kills due to how insanely good she is.

Koechophe3 votes

Yes, I have played karma support. She lacks impact in the sense that she has no "big moments" which define her gameplay and make her feel good. Spells such as a morgana snare, or a blitz grab, or a sona/janna ult. None of her spells, when they land, have that high impact. You hit a Q, you slow someone and do a little bit of damage. You "land" your W, you snare someone for 1 second after following them for 2 seconds. You use your e, they get shielded. They'res no high risk/reward factor in her gameplay.

Her 20% of missing hp heal is somewhat underwhelming as a support, because you not only have to drain your ult for it, but you're also not tanky enough for 20% of your missing hp to be a lot, unless you are low enough for the adc and/or support to burst you down.

Her shield is good, but you need to level it for it to be strong, which essentially removes all damage from your kit in the early game. In the early-mid stages of the lane, it is essentially a speed boost, because the damage shielded is negligable.

Her Q is decent poke, but it falls off out of lane, and is not as strong as other, more dedicated poke supports, such as lulu or sona. And a 1.5 second 25% slow, while nice, is not nearly as good of a setup as many other supports have. And I mean that it is difficult to land in the sense that it's hard to use when players have proper positioning.

I agree she has a lot of strengths, just none of them are very defining or impactful. There's no solid reason to pick her over other supports except that she's okay at everything.

Zionga02 votes

She lacks impact in the sense that she has no "big moments" which define her gameplay and make her feel good.

Her R+E is essentially a free Shurelia+Locket. And on a lower cooldown than either of those items. And with a nuke to boot. Granted, other combos are not as good, but you can have everything at once. Also, E is pretty damn strong on its own, speeding up your Udyr just enough to stun the enemy, or your Nasus to land W and then go ham on the enemy.

And a 1.5 second 25% slow, while nice, is not nearly as good of a setup as many other supports have.

It does have a higher uptime than other supports' setups for a reason.

There's no solid reason to pick her over other supports except that she's okay at everything.

Well, that's pretty much every "no/weird ultimate" hero in a nutshell. And there's no way to fix it without redoing the skillset entirely.

DeadeyeBaron1 votes

I have been working with the new Karma (NKarma) since her rework, and have played for half a year before that. And I must say, your arguments are pretty spot on.

I must first clarify that, despite being one of those that are outraged by the complete removal of her old self, I enjoy playing with the new Karma for some of the reasons you have mentioned. I also agree with the problems you mentioned, because I recognize them quite clearly through my many games with her.

I do understand the need to change some of the old contents as the whole game transitions into a competitive E-sport. After all, old Karma (OKarma) does have issues in her kit (although COULD be remedied with more exposure, like Riot is doing now).

Have you played karma support?

You say Q's hard to land...I'm so confused, that shit is as easy as ezreal Q to land. It has a pretty big hitbox, moves very fast, and on top of that has splash damage so you can hit people standing in their minions. If you have trouble hitting her Q, it sounds like the problem is you, not the champion.

I play her support but can get solo kills due to how insanely good she is.

I would have to admit, the Q was hard to land, at first. This is mostly due to knowing (or sensing) the exact distance required to reach your intended target or location. This requires a lot of "intuition" and map awareness to pull off, as is the case with many other skillshot-based abilities (I still miss sometimes. but I'm getting better at it day by day). I would appreciate if the missle speed is faster, and the impact radius be bigger (Q and RQ), but I think part of the difficulty of playing NKarma is learning to know how to land your Q which, as EEmWtTxCTGL said, makes her a nuinsance for her opponent.

I do have to complain about the W and RW. The tether is supposed to be a remnant of her former W, which people complained about how it offered little use unless maxed (which is unlikely in the old days as the demanding use for her other abilities are much higher). This W, while has its uses, is IMO too short to be on a ranged Mage. The healing component is suppose to mimic her old trademark moment - turning the table as she has lower health. However, this trademark worked because of her Old Kit - her passive and double Mantra. Riot's tried to compact all that into one single ability, but in its current form, I can't help it but feeling weak when using it. Don't get me wrong, I have had my moments with RW, which has helped to turn the tide, but it's mostly in duels and has little and very situational impacts in teamfitghts. I would have hoped for something like this W in her old kit, but with NKarma, I rather have the old one back.

Since they removed much of her E's damage and strength, I think it's only fair that they make the speed boost lasts a bit longer. Perhaps make the speed boost lasts as long as the shield, like Janna's? Also, I really wish they make the sound and visual animation of her E and RE (and other abilities too) to be more "ultimate". The abilities are useful, but the aesthetics are just not as appealing. Need to hear and see more boom :P.

I felt that her passive could be tagged to her ultimate instead of a stand-alone slot in her kit. I understand that the passive is supposed to help weave the whole kit together, but there must be a better one to do the job? If that's done, then there would be room to make a passive that help solve her role issue. Maybe make a passive that enables her to define her role base on itemization?

Overall, I believe she is a useful and fun champ. But too often than not, I feel that her difficulty comes from working around her kit rather than working with it. It could be quite frustrating at times. And I hope Riot would do something about it.

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