Friendly reminder most juggernauts are bad

Moody P·Apr 4, 2019·12 votes·3,679 views

They aren't even stomping low elo for the most part which is what """"allegedly"""" holds them back

Udyr is good Urgot is OP but getting nerfed Yorick is alright (because all of his counters are trash) Mordekaiser is alright

Everyone else is buttcheeks, and Shyvana is so bad as a fighter that she's going full AP instead. Yikes.

The "buffs" to Garen and Mundo that Boards immediately and collectively erupted about (especially Mundo. LOL if you up voted Yenn) were so insignificant that their higher elo performance didn't even move up an entire 1%.

Meanwhile plethora of champs in other classes are enjoying God tier status with exorbitant win and pick rates and nobody is upset and Riot has shown no indication of nerfing them. Where is the justice?

25 Comments

Frosted TipsApr 4, 20197 votes

Arguing that Mundo buffs were warranted is a joke. Mundo is a horribly designed champion, arguably the worst current design of a champion. He is a champion that consist of three stat steroids and 2 real abilities. That is horrid design. There is a reason that many of these champions you mentioned are on the tier 1 list for VGU's including; Mundo, Shyvana, Udyr, and Mordekaiser who is confirmed for the next VGU. They are all horribly designed and need a kit change not buffs.

Moody PApr 4, 20195 votes

Mundo is one of the most correct juggernaut designs in the game at the moment; given that he isn't just buying like a diver without any of the benefits of mobility, and is actually a high durability threat with strong DPS when played well. This is what more juggernauts should be closer to. He is also one of the most competitively successful juggernauts, a feat in itself.

Nothing about Mundo's current kit or the fantasy he sells warrants an overhaul. You're foolish to suggest otherwise; many recent age champions are far more detrimental to game health than Mundo is.

Frosted TipsApr 4, 20194 votes

many recent age champions are far more detrimental to game health than Mundo is.

How so? Because they are overtuned at first and then get nerfed, but people still hate them because they are mobile and not super one dimensional? Because you are forced to actually think while playing and playing against them. I'm not saying all the new designs are good, but they are atleast designs.

Mundo is horribly designed and to think otherwise is ludicrous. Simplicity should be in the game, but something being overly simple like Mundo is also not healthy. I know that is an unpopular opinion, but it is true. And before you come at me with, "oh you just play overly complex champions and you can't see how they are bad." I'm just gonna say that it is obvious that giving a champion too much is bad, but it is just as bad to offer them too little. Atleast with too many you can take stuff away and try to work from there. With too little you have to try to add stuff while removing power from other parts of the champion.

Critmaster GarenApr 4, 20193 votes

[{quoted}](name=Frosted Tips,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bTMovRlL,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2019-04-04T20:04:11.279+0000)

How so? Because they are overtuned at first and then get nerfed, but people still hate them because they are mobile and not super one dimensional? Because you are forced to actually think while playing and playing against them. I'm not saying all the new designs are good, but they are atleast designs.

Mundo is horribly designed and to think otherwise is ludicrous. Simplicity should be in the game, but something being overly simple like Mundo is also not healthy. I know that is an unpopular opinion, but it is true. And before you come at me with, "oh you just play overly complex champions and you can't see how they are bad." I'm just gonna say that it is obvious that giving a champion too much is bad, but it is just as bad to offer them too little. Atleast with too many you can take stuff away and try to work from there. With too little you have to try to add stuff while removing power from other parts of the champion.

on the other hand, moody has a point that mundo is one of the few juggernauts who still really builds and plays like a juggernaut.

a lot of the others tend to build more heavily into damage, and into squishier burstier builds these days.

Frosted TipsApr 4, 20192 votes

Then that should be looked into as an itemization problem more so than a, Mundo is great thing. Also I slightly disagree since Mundo often builds zero damage items which is not how Juggernauts are supposed to build.

EbonyBladeJ88Apr 4, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bTMovRlL,comment-id=0002000000000000,timestamp=2019-04-04T20:32:25.386+0000)

on the other hand, moody has a point that mundo is one of the few juggernauts who still really builds and plays like a juggernaut.

a lot of the others tend to build more heavily into damage, and into squishier burstier builds these days.

Some of that can be attributed to the "Burst or be Bursted" Meta that has permeated this game for some time now. You can build tanky as a Juggernaut and still get melted in what feels like no time flat. Even Garen with his W at max stacks (Both before and after this most recent patch) isn't immune. Even when the W is active he could still get melted by someone like Vayne (Ooh, don't even get me STARTED on her) or Velkoz (his can be a problem too but at least it requires him to use his Ult to proc it) with their true damage.

And even without true damage, the Armor and/or MR penetration can still wreak havoc on you even when you build tanky. So most have subscribed to the old axiom of "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em".

Whatever, I'm probably preaching to the choir on this one, and I'll probably get downvoted, but oh well.

Moody PApr 4, 20191 votes

Because they smother the rest of the game and make other champions obsolete. Mundo has never done that. Mobility has nothing to do with it. I'd appreciate you not trying to straw me again.

Actually have to think

No you don't. These champions for the most part require less active strategizing and thought as they shift towards active reflexes which is where the debate between micro vs macro comes from. Vs Mundo you actually have to consider how you're going to play the map with him in consideration and him likewise given that he can't quickly cross map and he has to consider how much damage he can tank at a given time before His healing is negated.

Mundo has just enough to his kit to be deemed a kit. I know that he's not able to singlehandedly win the game with one button press so he's not your kind of champion, but having too little has never been Mundo's issue.

Frosted TipsApr 4, 20192 votes

How do new champion have less Macro desicions than old champions?

Mundo has nearly zero micro decisions while offering the same macro desicions as any other champion.

Moody PApr 4, 20193 votes

Having better means of crossing the map greatly reduces the necessity of you having to be good at map play since jumping over walls will reduce the time it takes to get from point A to B. Its an absolute essential to doing well as any juggernaut (and highly important for mid lane mages as well), but the emphasis of mechanical play makes the aspect much more forgiving which is why a lot of players who play mechanical champions can get to high ranks while having mediocre macro; obviously the opposite is true for people who play more straightforward champions like juggernauts, tanks, and Enchanters. Marksmen are somewhere in the middle and have to be good at both unless their team comp is 100% focused around making them unkillable faceroll

Frosted TipsApr 4, 20191 votes

There are champions that have target mobility, so they can not hope walls either. Also, even though imo I hate plants, blast cones help immobile champions move across the map.

kingDeDeDariusApr 4, 20193 votes

No clue why you were downvoted, most of what you say is true (except the complaint part, there are plenty of justified complaints about riven, zed, vayne, jinx, Kaylee, Yas, etc)

Moody PApr 4, 20192 votes

I am a warrior of truth which puts me at odds with the eternal agenda makers of boards

MetalGearTeemoApr 5, 20191 votes

Truth hurts sometimes.

The best trick riot ever pulled was giving characters so many outplay buttons that they might accidentally trip over one and calling it "skillcap"

You work much harder to be effective and make plays as something as "Braindead" as Mundo or Garen then you do on most of the games cast, and you have to be better positioned and have better foresight to be ready to make those plays.

HethaleanApr 4, 20191 votes

Wait... Urgot is a juggernaut? I guess they really let go of the 'Juggernauts are defined by a lack of mobility' because Aatrox (with mobility) is a juggernaut too lol

OleandervineApr 4, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Wait... Urgot is a juggernaut? I guess they really let go of the 'Juggernauts are defined by a lack of mobility' because Aatrox (with mobility) is a juggernaut too lol

While I'm hesitant to call Urgot a Juggernaut for a variety of reasons, mobility is not on that list AT ALL. I don't count a 2 foot dash with a delay as mobility, and given that nothing else in his kit modifies his move speed, I'd like to know how you qualify him as mobile? It's no different than Darius' hook - both abilities are just ways to close a gap.

HethaleanApr 5, 20191 votes

{quoted}

While I'm hesitant to call Urgot a Juggernaut for a variety of reasons, mobility is not on that list AT ALL. I don't count a 2 foot dash with a delay as mobility, and given that nothing else in his kit modifies his move speed, I'd like to know how you qualify him as mobile? It's no different than Darius' hook - both abilities are just ways to close a gap.

I classify mobility as an ability that is a dash or blink. Darius hook isn't really a gap closer. If you miss his hook, they're no closer to you, if you 'miss' your Urgot E, you're still closer. Darius also can't use it to flee.

Sure he's not hyper mobile like Riven, but it's still mobility.

EbonyBladeJ88Apr 4, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Wait... Urgot is a juggernaut? I guess they really let go of the 'Juggernauts are defined by a lack of mobility' because Aatrox (with mobility) is a juggernaut too lol

The mobility that the two of them have are limited to the dashes that they have on their respective E's, in replacement for the other forms of mobility or CC that others have, such as the MS boosts that ones like Garen, Udyr, Mundo, Shyvana and so on have, or the Pull that Darius has, or the targeted Slow that Nasus has, and so on.

For Aatrox his Dash is shorter and has a shorter cool-down, and thanks to those changes it is limited to one in comparison to when the VGU first launched, although he can pass through small walls with it.

As for Urgot his dash goes farther, but cannot pass over terrain, and also has the added effect that if he collides with an enemy champ he tosses them around just behind him. His dash, also thanks to recent changes grants a shield.

So while they have certain "mobility" aspects other Juggernauts do not have, these forms that they DO have are still rather limited.

HethaleanApr 5, 20191 votes

{quoted}

The mobility that the two of them have are limited to the dashes that they have on their respective E's, in replacement for the other forms of mobility or CC that others have, such as the MS boosts that ones like Garen, Udyr, Mundo, Shyvana and so on have, or the Pull that Darius has, or the targeted Slow that Nasus has, and so on.

For his Dash is shorter and has a shorter cool-down, and thanks to those changes it is limited to one in comparison to when the VGU first launched, although he can pass through small walls with it.

As for his dash goes farther, but cannot pass over terrain, and also has the added effect that if he collides with an enemy champ he tosses them around just behind him. His dash, also thanks to recent changes grants a shield.

So while they have certain "mobility" aspects other Juggernauts do not have, these forms that they DO have are still rather limited.

I mean that's still mobility. Yasuo's mobility is limited. Lucian and Vayne can't dash over walls. I'm also not sure that either of those are lacking any strong CC that other Juggernaut's have.

ModKnightsKemplarApr 4, 20191 votes

I want your thoughts on the Wit's End changes, Moody, especially since you brought up a couple of attack speed fighters. Right direction, or no, and why?

Moody PApr 4, 20194 votes

I'm very disappointed in the actual strength of the item.

They had the right idea of broadening its use cases like this but I don't agree with the end result of adding more healing into fighter items; I would rather just be tanky rather than forcing Grievous Wounds to be even more of a nuisance to sustain champions that aren't tripling down on ridiculous heal values.

I still advocate they should have swapped something like a Phage into the build path. That would have been much more helpful to a good portion of on hit champions who don't like Trinity or Cleaver and/or want a cheaper more team focused alternative.

AlzonApr 4, 20191 votes

Gotta disagree with your second point. The 5% movespeed is about as strong as Phage’s AA buff, and it’s up permanently - which is very nice for map mobility and for catching up to running opponents. Plus it stacks with Phage.

For your first point, I partially agree. It’s sustained healing, so it’s gonna be effective over longer fights, Grievous Wounds or not. Plus, as a magic resist item with a magic damage on-hit effect, it already partially counters both Bramble Vest and Morellonomicon. But the difference versus GW will still be noticeable, and the lack of HP still hurts its early performance - particularly versus Ignite. So the item is really only going to ever be viable early-mid if the chance of being Ignited is low, unless of course the enemy is stacking AP.

My personal favorite part of the rework is how Wit’s End is no longer reliant on you or your team dealing magic damage, so I’m not trolling if I build it on someone like Jarvan or Lucian.