Can we fix Jax's empower, it's getting old

FalconPawwwwnch·Nov 4, 2016·47 votes·3,497 views

So for everyone who plays champions with AA resets like Nasus or Renekton, you'd know how their autoattack resets work.

You cast Siphoning Strike or Ruthless predator immediately after an autoattack to reset the timer. On top of this, if you cast either preemptively and target an enemy champion with it, it will be used no matter what if the enemy gets in range even if they CC you.

For example, if you're walking towards a low health irelia with siphoning strike charged up, and she turns around to stun you, your Q will still go off.

Jax's empower is one of the only (as far as I know, it is the ONLY) autoattack reset that doesn't work like this. It can be cancelled by anything. This makes him very clunky considering his autoattack is shitty enough in lane as is, and his empower doesn't get extra range like Siphoning Strike or Ruthless Predator

Thanks

41 Comments

The Bearded BardNov 4, 201624 votes

I'm pretty sure Jax's is the only one working as intended and the rest are bugs.

Photos of GhostsNov 4, 20163 votes

Nah, they take that as an example often, empowered autos being intended to be uncancelable (both by the user and by CC)

LordGeovanniNov 5, 20161 votes

thats pretty bs when i can knock up nasus 400 range away from the minion he is trying to stack and he gets it anyway

hudzellNov 5, 20161 votes

empowered autos being intended to be uncancelable (both by the user and by CC)

Um.. Aatrox ? His Blood Thirst/Price can be cancelled similarly to any other auto attack.

TequilaZombieNov 5, 20165 votes

That's an onhit effect, not really an empowered AA. It's closer to a Teemo's E and Ekko's Passive than a Nasus' Q.

RainbowIceeNov 4, 20164 votes

Wouldnt jax also abuse the shit out of this and kill everyone even more? Idk about people but i see a jax coming im running and poking. He doesnt need any more reason to terrorize me. I dont mean he is op but he sure as hell is a killer.

AiquaNov 5, 20163 votes

That's the whole point of jax Do you not try to kite against Aatrox Fiora Irelia Olaf MasterYi Riven XinZhao Yasuo MonkeyKing Tryndamere Warwick Shyvana etc because if you dont I'd argue you're doing it wrong

Captain AishiNov 4, 20167 votes

Shyvana Q has the same interaction with CC, it probably has to do with jax and shyvana having really delayed hits during their autoattack animation compared to other champions (the actual hit happens almost at the end of the swing instead of at the start like most champions)

LatetotheRaceNov 5, 20166 votes

Illaoi's W can be canceled if she gets cc'd while midair. Just so you know.

5000000000000000Nov 5, 20161 votes

Any CC, or knockups? It has a dash component, so if that gets cancelled the damage shouldn't go off.

CanadianFarmerNov 5, 20161 votes

Only knocks up, it pretty much works as intended tbh since it has a mini dash incorporate in it.

PennsNov 4, 20165 votes

Nasus Q for example even hits/kills Fizz after he used his E. So if Jax W doesnt work like that Id prefer just making all empowered auto attacks work like Jax W lol.

WoonStruckNov 4, 20162 votes

A lot of empowered auto attacks (and melee auto attacks in general) work like old Cho W.

Jax's doesn't likely because he was mechanically updated, unlike Renekton and Nasus.

Though, I do think he should be fixed. A Trundle style VU would be nice, though.

FalconPawwwwnchNov 4, 20161 votes

ive never seen this happen before

PennsNov 4, 20161 votes

It happened to me a few times with Nasus Q. I use E, he still hits and kills me, but my E damage and slow go off after ~a second.. I dont think that should happen, same for using autos after getting stunned.

RavenMagusNov 4, 20162 votes

Well, for things like Irelia's E, it actually makes sense. Irelia's stun is fast, but it's not instant, and if you have an autoattack queued up, you'll start to use it as soon as you get in range. Irelia's E has a slightly larger range than normal melee - but so does Nasus's Q, Wukong's Q, and Renekton's W, which is why they can all still work but Jax's W doesn't. If your ability starts to go off and you get stunned midway, it'll finish - every ability in the game is like that (you would know if you've ever faced Ezreal).

For Fizz's E... I dunno, that one doesn't make sense.

underscores222Nov 4, 20161 votes

You can't escape autos. Once one has started, it will hit you, even if you flash. You can ignore the damage (counterstrike, ripotse, various invincibilities) but not the hit.

It is my guess that some powers that make you untargetable do not make you invulnerable - fiddle's drain used to hurt vlad in bloodpool, for example (not sure if it still does). So I would hazard a guess that trickster makes fizz untargetable, but not invulnerable - thus autos that start before he jumps can still hurt him.

Automated RivenNov 4, 20162 votes

That is not true. Instant speed stuns timed correctly cancel autoattacks. Take riven for example. In a trade top lane you can get more out of the trade by stunning right after the auto attack animation starts. Because it essentially lenthens the time of the stun by like .03 seconds and you dodge a otherwise damaging auto attack. Same goes with spells. Almost every spell and auto attack on the game has a cast animation with allows it to be canceled after casting. Death is the best way to make this example. Every one of us has cast a spell and does not animation and had the spell fizzle and not go on cool down. And in some cases they fizzle and still go on cool down. The same is true for normal auto attacks. Its just a far narrower time frame to be able to do it. Also I am pretty sure that nasus's q is also bugged so that when he auto attack minion and it dies he keeps his q. Altho not sure if that actually a bug or not.

underscores222Nov 4, 20161 votes

There's a difference between the animation and the actual auto - you can be stunned and stuff out of the animation, as you noted.

WoonStruckNov 4, 20161 votes

_Edit: Didn't see this was a response to the scenario lol. _

You can use an instant stun on Nasus/Renekton, and if they're already in range, their empowered auto will still go off.

Jax is an exception to auto attack modifiers. Jax's animations, specifically autos, are notoriously inconsistent.

RavenMagusNov 5, 20161 votes

I still think it's just due to Jax's lack of enhanced auto range, which everyone else gets.

But it could also be spaghetti code. With this game you just never know.

Photos of GhostsNov 4, 20162 votes

Simply, he's untargetable, not invulnerable. An autoattack has already targeted him - simply, it cancels normal autos. But those are not cancelable.

GigaPubeNov 4, 20164 votes

ironic that hes the "grandmaster of arms" yet has one of the slowest autoattack resets in the game, with a supposed block of brass which is supposed to be lighter than most weapons

R FLASH XDNov 5, 20164 votes

jax buffs, please no

WarlockLawNov 4, 20163 votes

Personally, I'm more annoyed about how some empowered auto attacks are allowed to deal damage to towers (Nasus) while others are not (Jax). I honestly don't care either way about whether they can, but I do care that it's a case by case issue. I see no reason why these abilities should work differently at all.

GrReaper96Nov 4, 20161 votes

I mean they even removed Rengars empowerd Q on towers pre-rework. Nasus should deal at least half dmg to turrets with his Q

WarlockLawNov 5, 20161 votes

If one person can, everybody should. If one person can't, nobody should. It flies in the face of the 'clarity' that Riot professes to balance for.

TeralisanNov 5, 20161 votes

Tower's do not take magic dmg outside of very specific circumstance.

WarlockLawNov 5, 20161 votes

That still doesn't account for Rengar's empowered auto not hitting towers. Or Yorrick. Or Renekton.
Fun fact, the damage a champion deals is equal to your base AD plus the greater value between your Bonus AD or 50% of you AP. If your AP is chosen, that portion is dealt as magic damage. This means that every champion that builds AP and not AD deals magic damage to turrets. Even if we do not count that there is still Lich Bane, Ekko E, Diana passive, Akali passive, Leona Q, Ziggs passive, Sona passive, Nidalee cougar Q, Sejuani W, TF W, Rammus Ult, and Alistar passive. But yeah, towers rarely take magic damage.

SirHeavyScrotumNov 4, 20162 votes

I know what you mean. I used to main Jax but didn't play him for a while, when I went back to him I had completely forgotten how to reset his autos with my W. Also his autos are really stupid, like if someone walks out of auto range there is a chance it'll cancel, unlike literally every other champion.

AirKingNeoNov 4, 20162 votes

Can we also fix all his dodge bugs?

xXReederboardXxNov 5, 20162 votes

I see where your issue is and it honestly is a problem with how they set up when the damage hits a character. for instance flashing away and still dieing to an AA or AA reset. realistically an AA should do damage when it connects with the target. kinda like fizz's q. if you flash away it does no damage. alister's head butt is the same. So if they made all champions damage occur when the attack actually hits a certain zone of a target. therefor the speed in skills would start to play a part if since nasus's Q has a longer cast time than irelia's stun her's should hit and he's shouldn't but also not be consumed either. flashing out of range prior to an AA connecting should put you in safe distance. the problem would just be to devolope the actual distance needed. Ex: jax chasing master yi. you AA him but his speed puts him out of range to connect by the time the animation goes off. there would have to be leway on the distance you'd need to escape to not receive damage. just like a vayne ult tumble. going invisible and tumbling even though a target should cause the AA to miss since they went invisible prior to the AA connecting. i believe that would solve the problems with the difference in empowered AAs, make it more realistic, and bring the learning curve up making kiting much more difficult and comprehensive.

RouwhorstNov 5, 20162 votes

This would make kiting easier I think, if less attacks hit you, then kiting is automatically easier.

It would also cause problems with moving targets, as your example with master yi clarifies. When you issue a attack order on a unit, your champion will walk up to that unit until it is in range to do an attack and then your champion preforms an attack. But if your opponent is walking away, you would ALWAYS miss when you let the game handle it. As you said, leeway is needed, but it would heavily depend on on your attack range and attack animation/speed. (And if you factor those in calculating the leeway it most likely becomes overly complicated.)

A champion with slow attackspeed can therefore be dodged way more easily. What about sidestepping? Or flashing behind that Garen or Mordekaiser who is just about to do his Q? This would be quite a large nerf to melee champions, since their attacks can (and will) miss. And a huge buff to mobile champions.(therefore indirect nerf to immobile champions)

Would you also implement it on ranged champions? Sure, go ahead and make those pesky ranged champions more realistic, let the projective (almost always) go in a straight line, make the projectile only hit the first target it encounters. "this would make kiting much more difficult"-- no, it won't.

xXReederboardXxNov 6, 20161 votes

yep, i completely agree the "leeway" on if the attack hits or misses would actually have to be fairly large. say close to a flash distance so that even master yi at his max speed probably wouldn't reach the same range in the time an AA goes off. oviously garen should turn and attack no matter what direction someone dodges in range. just like walking into a bush with the attack move command, even if they dash through you you still get an attack off. mainly my point was just saying when the damage is or isn't given is inconsistent. so an AA of slow speed should be stopped by a fast acting stun. irelia as an example that stun goes off super quick. where as nasus's q if the damage is delt after the stun. it theoretically shouldn't happen. obviously even fast attacks should be stopped and not deal damage if the stun goes off prior to that same point when the damage is dealt. nasus's q really has just a hit no matter what mechanic. i've definitely stunned a nasus prior to him killing a minion but the damage will still go through most of the time. I'm not 100% sure when his damage does go through and if you can stun him in animation. but i do dislike flashing just to die from a mele AA and still losing my flash. because if you die to it then you should die next to the target not 500 range away. As far as ranged champions there damage does go off when their attack connects with the target. jinx's rocked you can see when the damage hits because you can take a lantern at mega speed and not get hurt for about another second. shooting past minions is just common sense though because all the characters are taller than the minions so you can shoot over their head's. graves is just a bad ass who thinks it's cool to hip fire his shot gun.

xXReederboardXxNov 6, 20161 votes

i really should put paragraphs in mine too. looks sloppy. :D

TrestaniNov 6, 20162 votes

jax's W is fine

OglafNov 4, 20161 votes

Yeah it should be fixed. It is clearly just an leftover on Jax because he is an older Champion with more clunky and less polished coding.

WoonStruckNov 4, 20164 votes

Actually, its the opposite. Renekton and Nasus are clunky, unpolished ones. Their current kits are older than Jax's.

Jax has had empower and other parts of his kit reworked almost as much as Ryze.

RouwhorstNov 5, 20161 votes

Yes those reworks took place even before season were implemented. look on the wiki the latest change to his w was in V1.0.0.140b. If you take something like Trundle or Garen, you can see that they were reworked more recently: 3.6 and 5.16 respectively. Both can get their Q's off when they are stunned just after their animation starts.

MunchCrunchLunchNov 4, 20161 votes

they need to fix the fact that his E could go off and he still get hits in the first 0.25 seconds or so. its stupid. the ability is instant cast but it has a delay somehow

on a side note. the problem with some aa resets in league is that they have longer animation for the reset.