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Urgot should be considered the new Juggernaut standard

Moody P··7 votes·4,215 views

and with this, scrap the old "rule set" that makes most other juggernauts obsolete and useless (the same rules that Urgot himself barely adheres to, go figure);

  • Low CC
  • Low target access
  • Low range
  • Low utility
  • Unreasonable damage

this design makes juggernauts way too limited and feast-or-famine and shoves them too far away from what is otherwise a completely reasonable role; less mobile melee carries who make up for it in bulk. Urgot is quite a healthy design despite ignoring most of this, whereas plenty of juggernauts who follow these rules tend to be champions that are despised even when they aren't overperforming. Honestly, as much as I don't really care for new Urgot overall, it's the first juggernaut in a while that actually feels like a well thought raid boss - he's able to contribute to teamfights, his contributions don't entirely revolve around absolutely shitting on his lane opponent to have any value to his team, and he is easily the least binary juggernaut in the game because of it. Comparing him to juggernauts relatively recent around him; Yorick and Illaoi are way too dependent on long-cooldown setups and tiny skillshots, and Aatrox barely even feels like a juggernaut with how he rushes you at 800 MS, nukes you and then waddles away with his revive; also he blows ass if he doesn't stomp the soul out of his lane opponent, but this might be more soloQ related.

Designing new juggernauts (and maybe, fingers crossed, handing out small updates and tweaks to existing ones) closer to what Urgot is capable of would do a lot of justice to the class and would be an easy fix to most of the issues they've had fitting 'in' with the game.

this post is kind of messy, sorry

31 Comments

The Goodest Boy3 votes

I agree with you almost entirely. conceptually he's a great design for one of league's most notoriously hard-to-balance classes; but, he's way too overtuned and is quite over-powered (stat-wise) right now.

tone him down a bit, learn from the mistakes made on him, and you've got a great formula.

TheSingularity3 votes

I think the whole broken urgot is purely down to players not having a clue in the world how to play against him. But of no fault of their own. We've been in a snowbally micro centric meta for 3 years now. Divers/assassins/skirmishers reigned supreme up top for the most part with darius popping up here and there. And cho ruling the game for a few months. Macro was a non factor unless you wanted an S+

Now, urgot pops up, everyone is playing dive champs. Urgot's kit is similar to heim/illaoi in that it counters dive perfectly. It forces players to play passively, to play the macro game which hasn't been a thing for those 3 years and to make an optimal situation. Do you dive into donger/illaoi's face on a woo? No. You take out tentacles and turrets, bait either E then you go in. Urgot is the same. Bait his E and if possible his W and engage.

Play another jugg or tank, and ignore him. He has almost zero kill pressure because his engagement power is so horrid

Z3Sleeper1 votes

{quoted}

Play another jugg or tank, and ignore him. He has almost zero kill pressure because his engagement power is so horrid

Hahaha if only it were so easy. Urgot most definitely can lane bully early on, establishing a level 1 lead that carries him through the rest of the lane until next back. On top of that, W and E are extremely good trading tools, allowing him to buffer CC with E and damage with W to follow up with a bunch of autos and Q.

After that back he has access to Ignite now which both deters aggression even more and gives him huge kill potential in the form of E flash R Ignite.

Moody P1 votes

urgot sucks ass level 1

Z3Sleeper2 votes

You know who else sucks ass level 1? 90% of the top lane roster. Thus having any range over them whatsoever lets you poke them out until level 2.

I do it literally every game.

TheSingularity2 votes

I have found that it is that easy.

I've had no trouble decimating urgot on Chogath Darius DrMundo Heimerdinger Illaoi Olaf Sion Yorick.

And I played exactly as I stated above. I farm farm and farm some more. Tabi, bramble vest into deadmans if I'm struggling, which I did a little on yorick. But all turned out the same. I got fat as fuck, and either ran him down, killed his towers or poked him out of lane. Illaoi, darius and heim were by far my easier times. Went full AD illaoi and could throw him out of lane with a single E. I was just too fat on dari and out pushed/poked on heim.

Most urgots went precision when I stuck to top lane and have only faced spellbook once. Which was me on heim so I didn't have that much to fear.

Despite not having faced it as a melee, if you're any of those champions ignite wouldn't make a difference to me. He engages and I run away.

Sir Prepuzius2 votes

why the downvote, you make very good points here as soon as a champ is meta someone cries for nerf instead of learning how to counter him

DragonShea2 votes

{quoted}

I think the whole broken urgot is purely down to players not having a clue in the world how to play against him. But of no fault of their own. We've been in a snowbally micro centric meta for 3 years now. Divers/assassins/skirmishers reigned supreme up top for the most part with darius popping up here and there. And cho ruling the game for a few months. Macro was a non factor unless you wanted an S+

Now, urgot pops up, everyone is playing dive champs. Urgot's kit is similar to heim/illaoi in that it counters dive perfectly. It forces players to play passively, to play the macro game which hasn't been a thing for those 3 years and to make an optimal situation. Do you dive into donger/illaoi's face on a woo? No. You take out tentacles and turrets, bait either E then you go in. Urgot is the same. Bait his E and if possible his W and engage.

Play another jugg or tank, and ignore him. He has almost zero kill pressure because his engagement power is so horrid

Yeah Urgot is made to be an anti engage jug, all you gotta do is peel and piss noobs off so they jump you and its GG.

TheSingularity2 votes

all you gotta do is peel and piss noobs off so they jump you and its GG

it's so incredibly easy as well... A few Q's and they retaliate

Z3Sleeper1 votes

Yeah good design, just needs a slight tone down on his scaling. Mostly his passive, which has level scaling on the % health and cooldown which encourages him to forgo AD entirely past Black Cleaver while still outputting high damage.

Also a big part of him being less binary is the fact that his defensive tool is a moderate cooldown shield which is always available on press. Other juggernauts typically have some form of lifesteal that requires landing a telegraphed skillshot.

The Goodest Boy1 votes

I agree about his passive; I think that's where most of his disproportionate power is coming from right now. I think the whole "gets tons of AD/ free damage so he doesn't need any after cleaver" is true of most juggernauts today, and is more an issue with the class than with Urgot himself.

Z3Sleeper1 votes

His is more prevalent because it's on-demand, he just needs to position to apply it. Other Juggernauts have some kind of gimmick build up requirement before they start doing big damage. Tentacles, Hemorrhage Stacks, Ghouls, etc.

Urgot can just use his freely by walking up or flipping. His potential for massive upsets like Darius or Illaoi is much lower though.

Onandaga3 votes

I agree, Urgot is definitely on the better end of Riot's recent champs/reworks. He doesn't feel overly complicated or shackled to some gimmick and his gameplay feels cohesive.

Critmaster Garen3 votes

{quoted}

I agree, Urgot is definitely on the better end of Riot's recent champs/reworks. He doesn't feel overly complicated or shackled to some gimmick and his gameplay feels cohesive.

technically his shotgun legs are a gimmick.

its just that this gimmick works out better than some other gimmicks.

i already voiced my opinion on garens villainy passive. if they were to replace it, then just straight up replace it with atmas reckoning passive, and the removal of the reistance cap on his w passive.

otherwise garen after all his updates, and especially the change to his w, works pretty decently as far as juggernauts go. all hes lacking really is the intended lategame scaling.

because except for his lvl 1, most of his lane phase is still balls, and he still doesnt have the lategame scaling that was promised, when they gutted his early lane phase by removing a full second from the silence, and almost all of the early damage from the spin.

Moody P2 votes

garen usually sucks because he doesn't have any way to extend threat range unlike more successful juggernauts

Recent meta favoring him is an exception

Critmaster Garen1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bHVVWoOR,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2018-10-22T14:17:49.690+0000)

garen usually sucks because he doesn't have any way to extend threat range unlike more successful juggernauts

Recent meta favoring him is an exception

however, they compensated a bit by giving him outplay potential to kiting with the parry on his w and the slow cleanse on his q.

overall, he aint doing terribly anymore.

the only thing that irks me is that with the rework in season 5 he was promised a much stronger lategame scaling for the fact that they trashed his early game.

the only time hes really a juggernaut currently is against the villain.

IF they were to remove the villainy passive, i want it replaced by something that makes him scale harder the longer the game goes, and the longer he stays in a fight.

if theyre not adding the new fighter items in preseason, then atmas reckoning passive traded in for villainy would accomplish that imo. and removing the resistance cap on his w, so he can just keep stacking it up.

Z3Sleeper1 votes

Random thought. What if they removed his Villain thing and gave him this instead:

"While W is active, every basic attack or ability hit heals Garen for his per second passive healing"

That amount before level 11 is 0.4% maximum health. Post 11 is 1.6% maximum health.

It wouldn't break laning phase but it would improve teamfighting without just loading a ton of damage onto a single target like the Villain thing.

With full E spin (maxed E) and Q on one target that's 19.2% max health. If you make it "up to 2 targets" it goes to 38.4%.

It's not a spammable ability like Darius Q or anything so I think it's fine to have a higher health gain from it.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

Random thought. What if they removed his Villain thing and gave him this instead:

"While W is active, every basic attack or ability hit heals Garen for his per second passive healing"

That amount before level 11 is 0.4% maximum health. Post 11 is 1.6% maximum health.

It wouldn't break laning phase but it would improve teamfighting without just loading a ton of damage onto a single target like the Villain thing.

With full E spin (maxed E) and Q on one target that's 19.2% max health. If you make it "up to 2 targets" it goes to 38.4%.

It's not a spammable ability like Darius Q or anything so I think it's fine to have a higher health gain from it.

then hed be a big ignorable chunk of health. thats just the thing. how is he supposed to carry off that alone? hed be like mundo without the % damage on his q or the 300 ad steroid on his e.

he could survive a lot but wouldnt be a threat to other champions.

not to mention, grievous wounds would actually affect him now.

Z3Sleeper1 votes

Is the shred and BC shred not enough to be a threat? Haven't touched him in a minute.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

Is the shred and BC shred not enough to be a threat? Haven't touched him in a minute.

no, not really.

we barely build cleaver anymore, since the shred isnt that noticable of a power spike in damage unless youre fighting like malphite or rammus or some other hyper tank. cleaver fell out of favour when they nerfed its passive a while back.

plus, the targets you usually want to take out arent tanks. theyre assassins, skirmishers and marksmen, before they get a chance to blow you up. triforce just works better against them.

Poske2 votes

Ugh yeah I agree juggernauts are utterly useless class. At most they become anti melee top lane bullies

And even at that point Swain, Vladimir can be sort of like juggernauts while also being anti melee champions. Whats the point of a tanky juggernaut when you can just play kennen / lissandra and enjoy the zhonyas

Darius can stay imo tho. Just up his tankiness and make his passive apply only 4 stacks. so that he can atleast spin twice per teamfight and so that he cant AA>R due to passive, atleats 1 more move

Moody P2 votes

would rather see darius get more range on Q in exchange for reverting recent damage buffs

that would make him more useful overall and less oppressive vs lanes he already wins

Critmaster Garen1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bHVVWoOR,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2018-10-22T11:34:10.772+0000)

would rather see darius get more range on Q in exchange for reverting recent damage buffs

that would make him more useful overall and less oppressive vs lanes he already wins

more range on his q, or buffing the healing %.

either would have worked imo.

Moody P1 votes

I'd rather have range, softens his harder matchups

don't have an issue with his heals atm, just hate that grievous wounds is brainless

TheSingularity1 votes

The problem is without grievous wounds, he instantly wins allot of match ups with no hope of dealing with him. Purely because his damage is that overwhelming and his CC is so strong compared to other juggernauts (obviously his CC is pretty meh if we compare him to leona or lissandra)

He thrives in a drawn out fight, which is exactly the way most top laners fight. Grievous wounds at the very least makes it harder for darius to dive or 1v2. Because otherwise he can and will win in most cases. So while using grievous wounds is definitely brainless, so is 80% of darius' kit. His damage is extremely reliable. Closing distances in lane is a non factor because the enemy must come close to farm(his immobility definitely does kick in when he groups).

Could remove grievous wounds. But in turn every heal in the game would be annihilated

Moody P1 votes

Don't remove Grievous but it needs to be windowed; 40% heal reduction passively is absolutely terrible game design

imo revert Darius's recent damage buffs, maybe go even further and revert his last passive buff, in exchange for Q range. More range means more versatility so damage is fair compensation, and he already did plenty of damage before the fact anyway.

TheSingularity1 votes

Just for clarification. Are we saying extend the axe head hitbox out (so bigger hitbox for the part ur meant to hit). To extend the handle? (so the axe head is further away, but hasn't increased in size) Or both? (so longer handle, bigger axe head hitbox)

Moody P1 votes

both, since it seems the "healthiest" choice

This would also have the benefit of giving him proper counterplay for champs who have big hitboxes; since they'd get a more generous breathing room close to Darius and help avoid the "I was in handle but he still healed" feeling that they suffer from vs him

TheSingularity1 votes

I wouldn't mind experimenting with the change but do feel increasing the handle only would be the safer option. Purely because if we do both, the range increase of them individually would have to be small as the overall range buff would be significant. I think it'd be a fair trade off for increasing his effective chase range (as he'd be able to Q people further away).

Just a list of random suggestions off the top of my head so most will likely sound horrid. What if we changed the spell? Into a 2 part spell? He span, then immediately slammed his axe down (like an aatrox Q 1 hitbox but shorter range) It increases in size as you channel it. So press and release (like 0.1second) results in a near melee swing. The longer you channel the more bleed it applies, up to 2 stacks, in exchange it applies no bleed if you press and release instantly.

Purely for health reasons: Removed: noxian might no loner applies full bleed stacks through normal means. Reason: His reward for noxian might is his AD steroid. Giving him instant double damage just for autoattacking enemies is a bit much imo. In combination with extra stats, could b a change for the better.

Poske1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bHVVWoOR,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2018-10-22T11:34:10.772+0000)

would rather see darius get more range on Q in exchange for reverting recent damage buffs

that would make him more useful overall and less oppressive vs lanes he already wins

That would acomplish nothing he dies anyway before he heals

Aloretec1 votes

Riots internal testing department

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