You can already tell Ivern is going to be LCS Pick/Ban status

Danny DeVito·Sep 20, 2016·56 votes·4,994 views

Doesn't have to actually clear camps outside a channel? Can give blue and red buff to allies? Spawning bushes? A root that your allies can blink to?

Rip boys

93 Comments

AstôlfoSep 20, 201621 votes

He still has to clear camps with a channel that prevents him from doing anything else, can be interrupted, and will presumably decay said built-up bar when not actively being channeled. And he looks extremely vulnerable to invades.

EDIT: Also apparently his first clear takes 40 seconds which I really doubt because that's ridiculous. But that's what I heard. http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/Ga9XfuJi-a-few-things-to-note-about-ivern

EDIT 2: It actually does take 40 seconds. Decreases by 2 seconds per level (from the PBE player, not on FF@20 yet) What in the flying fuck? http://www.surrenderat20.net/2016/09/920-pbe-update.html On the plus side, Smites count as instant "clears". Well, that's pretty much always starting buff then. lol

EDIT 3: So apparently he can "prepare" multiple camps to be collected simultaneously which is the 40-6s timer. But to actually collect them, he has to return to them. It's cool he can farm more than one camp at once essentially, but invading would make his plans fall apart and turn completely worthless, which is a bummer.

The instant Smite for collect is nice though. Stealing someone's full health buff with it sounds hilarious.

DecritSep 20, 20169 votes

As far as i got, he doe snot have to stand near a camp the whole time. he starts a channel and goes there later, isn' t like that?

AstôlfoSep 20, 20162 votes

From what I can tell, he has to stand there the entire time for the channel process.

DecritSep 20, 20166 votes

I can' t copy paste apparently, but by the looks of how it was spelled under the paragraph "laning phase and mid game" seems laying down and picking up a camp are different actions. Or so i understood it at least. Things will get clearer by spectating i suppose.

also https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eY9qj7TdXX0 the grove generates over time

AstôlfoSep 20, 20162 votes

The ring thing is already there/can be put down whenever, but if he wants to actually "take" said jungle camp, he has to channel for full duration I think.

Warlord ZudaneSep 21, 201610 votes

No, you click once to start the grove and then it takes time for it to mature. You can stay there or you can leave, and you can have multiple going at once. It specifically states you can start the grove at each camp, gank a lane, taleport back to the starting camp and circle through freeing (clearing) them.

Everything I'm seeing of it shows that you only need to be there to start it and then back to clear.

The problem is though that this leaves his camps open to be stolen because if he doesn't circle back fast enough the enemy jungler can just swoop in and kill it. It's great for clears but could leave him wide open for invades.

AstôlfoSep 21, 20162 votes

Ah, okay. So he can essentially have multiple jungle camps self-farming? But unless he's there channeling directly, it takes longer?

Warlord ZudaneSep 21, 20164 votes

I don't think the time changes whether he is present or not. But yes, several self-farming pretty much although since they aren't cleared until he comes BACK, a jungler could easily clear his own gromp and red buff then go across to clear Ivern's red buff.

Votable JesterSep 21, 20166 votes

Here's how it works:

He goes to a camp and right clicks any of them as though to auto attack. This starts a channel for a couple seconds, and can be interrupted by enemy damage. After that initial channel, a "grove" is made that has to grow over the next 40-6 seconds (based on level). When it has finished growing, he can right click the camp again to "free" them, granting him the exp and gold as though he killed them.

He can also use smite after starting the grove to instantly finish and free the camp.

Any other questions?

Sire HippingtonSep 21, 20161 votes

it's important to note that creating a 'grove' costs a lot health and mana early on, he can't even 'grove' his entire jungle without smiteing red, and even then he is really vulnerable to counterjungleing as he drops really low.

Votable JesterSep 21, 20161 votes

He also needs to smite blue when he reaches that if he wants to continue.

Sire HippingtonSep 22, 20161 votes

It works with takeing it without smite early, the regen it gives is enough, unlike red.

Spaceman5pffSep 21, 20164 votes

This is a new level of thick-headedness.

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/FxbnHzeXlws/hqdefault.jpg

AstôlfoSep 21, 20164 votes

Not sure why you feel the need to be an ass when I'm just asking?

Spaceman5pffSep 21, 20162 votes

People linked great video of how it works. People explained MULTIPLE TIMES how it worked.

They HANDED you the resources detailing EXACTLY how it worked and you didn't bother using them and just sat here asking.

Like sorry, but not sorry. People tried to help you learn and you just sat there drooling.

AstôlfoSep 21, 20163 votes

Mmk bud. There was one single video posted which basically was just his sneak peek which explained nothing beyond a few minor visual hints. I don't own a PBE account and FF@20 didn't have all the info up yet. And this is an entirely new mechanic, to which I assumed being able to farm multiple camps at once wouldn't be a thing, so I asked and learned. So then I guessed that it would be balanced by taking longer if he wasn't there, so I asked to check.

But hey, if acting like a hilariously petty arrogant brat gets you off, do continue on :)

Spaceman5pffSep 21, 20161 votes

OK but the upvote jury has spoken sooooooooo

[slayer-jinx-catface]

EDIT: You were correct. I got my threads confused and this was not the one with the good videos. My apologies for that assumption.

AstôlfoSep 21, 20163 votes

Upvotes really mean nothing. Tyler1's banning thread is an example of proof. Soo... you can stop acting condescending now, buddy :)

Man, I pity you.

AstôlfoSep 21, 20162 votes

Cute. :)

PopppyseedSep 20, 201620 votes

Ivern is way too easy to counter jungle for him to be LCS pick/ban. Nidalees and lee sins would run over him.

It Hertz When IPSep 20, 20161 votes

What he WILL do well against is junglers with slower clear speed who don't have a good early game presence.

The DeckownerSep 20, 201627 votes

Which never gets played on the pro level

Spaceman5pffSep 21, 20168 votes

Im feeling like if he sees any pro play it will be as a support, and as a counterpick to melee supports Alistar Taric TahmKench Trundle Braum where he can abuse his brush spawns for lane dominance.

Also, I am fairly certain that he can use the ally dash mechanic to let Caitlyn for example blink AWAY from a Alistar Trundle to her max attack range. Unless I am misunderstanding the ability. If he does work this way, his synergy with Caitlyn in particular will be aburd. He amps her passive with brushes, so she headshots more often, and gives her extra disengage assuming the blink functions the way I think it does.

crippler38Sep 21, 20162 votes

pretty sure they blink into auto range not to max auto range otherwise that'd be kinda silly, but the shield with a slow on it would be pretty good peel.

Warlord ZudaneSep 21, 20161 votes

True, but wards and the bushes give vision. Has it been tested if you can click to clear a camp from across a wall? If so could you 'steal' the camp by clearing it before they can kill, or does combat remove the grove?

137434Sep 21, 20162 votes

From what I have seen you can't create a grove around a camp over a wall, you basically have to be in aa range of the camp.

PayaThePapayaSep 21, 20161 votes

Doesn't his smite instantly clear camps? If that's regardless of health then he's never going to be outsmited. Or am I missing something

BobaFlautistSep 20, 201610 votes

At which point everything fun about him will be unceremoniously needed into the ground, with special care taken to retain his "identity", I.E. whichever part of his kit is most vital to said LC%%%%%/Ban status.

See: Reksai, Azir, Elise, etc

ThePartyLeaderSep 20, 20164 votes

Nothing wrong with utility champions being good in organized play. If they aren't they are literally trash tier.

Spaceman5pffSep 21, 20164 votes

The meta being defined by utility as a priority over damage is why there is virtually no champion diversity in pro play. The only proven way to acheive massive diversity in champ select would be to accept counter-picks as a viable balance measure. Just look at Dota 2.

ThePartyLeaderSep 21, 20161 votes

{quoted}

The meta being defined by utility as a priority over damage is why there is virtually no champion diversity in pro play. The only proven way to acheive massive diversity in champ select would be to accept counter-picks as a viable balance measure. Just look at Dota 2.

So you would be OK with a champion having a 60%win rate over extended periods of time? And a dozen or so champions having above 55% win rate? Since that's what I'm seeing from dota hero balancing.

Spaceman5pffSep 21, 20161 votes

Yes, because I know that there is almost always a definite and effective counterpick available. Also, 5-10% winrate is a small price to pay to see VASTLY more characters played more of the time.

Outside of the few forever-populars, the makeup of low-mid elo games is determined by what high-elo players and pros are playing on stream / stage. If they see virtually every champion played on stream / stage, then there will probably be even more diversity in low elo.

Lastly, A counter-balancing system allows people with good game knowledge and an understanding of how to play their matchup put up a better fight against players who just brute force their way a few tiers up the ladder with mechanics.

flibitydooSep 21, 20162 votes

he takes too long to clear the camps early on

and priming 3 camps for consumption (aka the fastest you can go, which is still slow) puts him at like 200 hitpoints at level 1. It also drains most of his mana.

All you gotta do is pick shaco and q+right click him for that first blood. And then maybe steal his camps because he hasn't claimed them yet.

and the meta at the pro level for junglers has always been fast clear/strong early duelists such as elise, lee sin, rengar, rek'sai kha'zix, nidalee and zac (zac has a veri fast clear).

It's because of this meta you don't see fiddlesticks/nautilus/amumu very often because the pros will punish their weak early game clearspeeds and poor early game dueling.

Spaceman5pffSep 21, 20161 votes

Jungler start -> boots and 4 hp pots.

Chug pots and mark all your camps (4 pots = 600HP recovered) and I mean ALL of them. Then smite red for HP and the buff and go gank a lane or two.

Go click on all of your camps.

Gank again.

Buy a Hunters pot, pink ward, and whatever the hell else you want.

Mark all of your camps again.

Theoretically, Ivern can be an effective jungler without ever buying a jungle item.

Think like item 2032 item 3117 item 2045 item 3092

This is just a quick braindump, I am no expert but it seems like an interesting way to run Ivern. "but spaceman, he won't get full xp from the camps without a jungle item" K but he doesn't need to fight them so getting level 2 off of a single camp is not super important to him. This is why he can just rank q at level 1, mark ALL camps while chugging 4 pots and then gank with only red cleared, since he gains no significant ganking power via level 2, aside from synergy with very specific allies.

NOTE: I don't think he will excel as a jungler, I am in the Ivern Support camp.

VekknaSep 21, 20161 votes

Why not start corruption potion?

PiVoRxSep 21, 20162 votes

Im more worried about his smite instant clear, can someone confirm that? If so, it means he can just go and instantly steal buffs from enemy jungle.

Sightless66Sep 21, 20162 votes

He's a jungler who isn't designed around shitting on everyone early game. That pretty much gets rid of any chance of him being played professionally. Junglers who lack strong early game dueling and ganking haven't been part of the jungle for seasons.

Master ArtoriaSep 21, 20161 votes

Except his intended position is support, not junlge.

Supreme Senpai69Sep 21, 20161 votes

It's both. He is a support champion that is played in the jungle.

DiamondLeonisSep 21, 20164 votes

If he goes support, he won't have a passive

Supreme Senpai69Sep 21, 20164 votes

Support is a role, not a position though. ADCs don't have to go bot lane; Jhin goes mid sometimes. His role is ADC, his position is mid lane. Iverns role is support. His position is jungler.

ChaoticPineconeSep 21, 20162 votes

I see him going support, not jungle.

Set up a grove at red buff on blue side or blue buff on red side, go out to ward, then come back to instaclear it. As a benefit you get double blues or double reds.
You shield your engage/carries with your E for, help your engage with your Q, and have a nice secondary engage/disengage with your ult.
On top of that, you create bushes that could have some interesting dynamics - Caitlyn getting more headshots, using that second of vision denial for Twitch stealth, etc. I can also see some good lane pressure from bushes - side brush control just isnt enough anymore. If you clear out a sidebush and set up your bush in the lane, thats a lot of vision denial for a gank. You take for granted that you can actually see whats going on in a lane - what happens if a Lee Sin sneaks into a side brush, walks into a connecting brush in the middle of the lane?
But the most important reason he will be pick or ban? He has such a unique playstyle that isnt similar to any other champion, and for that reason some players will adapt quickly (like what we saw with Huhi and Aurelion Sol and Aphro on Bard) while others will not. LCS teams have two options - practice against Ivern (which may or may not be optimal, since we dont know Ivern's optimal strats) or just ban him outright. Instead of spending hours preparing to counter one champion who may or may not be played or played in the way you think, its safer just ban it and prep other stats that work for the other 125+ champions in the game.

Spaceman5pffSep 21, 20162 votes

Fairly certain the the ally blink on his Q puts the user at their MAX attack range. As such, this might be useable as disengage.

LeetriSep 21, 20161 votes

From what I've seen it doesn't trigger if you're already within attack range.

Spaceman5pffSep 21, 20161 votes

Yup. Just tested it and it doesn't.

That would have been really awkward for allies to use though, anyway.

LeetriSep 21, 20161 votes

Now I wonder how it works with AA range modifications. Like, if Aatrox has his ult active will he dash to his normal AA range or the enhanced AA range?

Chumpzi11aSep 21, 20161 votes

This is a utility mid for carry junglers, especially rengar. Level 1 take a camp for the xp, get level 2 halfway through the first wave, zone the other mid off creeps. Sweep a side bush, block vision with a created bush, let the other mid pick between farming while risking a no gap closer needed gank and waiting it out under tower. keep smiting camps for extra farm and vision control. Shouldn't roam terribly well, but good pressure mid is good pressure mid. Waveclear not good, but should always be ahead in xp and farm.

Chumpzi11aSep 21, 20162 votes

Probably as a utility mid laner. The free xp for popping camps with smite. The gank assist to his Rengar, or any strong ganking jg. Sweep a side bush, place one to deny vision, push the other laner off the creeps with the threat. A root that grants a dash, a shield with a slow, and vision denial that makes him ranged. THis champ was not well thought out.