Zed over 15% play rate, nearly 70% ban rate and hovering around 53% win rate

Dominick Destine·Mar 20, 2016·125 votes·6,776 views

Is it time for Riot to finally nerf Zed...? hopefully Yasuo is gutted as well.

And let me remind you, Evelynn has been repeatedly gutted for way less egregious offenses.

241 Comments

DurfainMar 21, 201618 votes

The only bullshit thing about Zed is that he essentially has a ranged poke mage style of play in mid lane but with all the advantages of a melee champion. So, he gets, MR per level, high health and high armor all because he's melee but he manages to get strong poke and waveclear (did I mention it's manaless?) on Q. Honestly, he's much to strong of a laner - asssassins are not meant to build up CS leads before level 6. Unless the enemy laner severely messes up, Zed (and Yasuo cough) are supposed to be the type of champions that are kept in check early game. Instead, we have Zed who has manaless waveclear so even if he is in a hard matchup (lol) he can just sit back and farm. There's never ever ever ever a reason NOT to pick Zed on your team (a lot of this has to do with the increased availability of flat arpen in masteries and items plus Maw is broken). As Meddler noted, I really hope they gut his Q because playing against manaless poke that also simultaneously waveclears while hitting you for like 80 damage early game since you have no armor due to.. you guessed it, armor penetration is massively unfun. I mean they nerfed the hell out of Syndra's Q for exactly the same reason** but at least you know Syndra will eventually run out of mana** >.>

ZedexMar 21, 201611 votes

Wait, you actually think Yasuo's overpowerd?

He's so squishy and easy to kill, granted you've actually played the guy and know how he works.

Tyrone LannisterMar 21, 20168 votes

Oh and i love when people say yasuo is freelo then feed their ass off on him.

AstôlfoMar 21, 20164 votes

Shhh, the QQers don't hear logic.

My Waifu VanillaMar 21, 20162 votes

QQers also don't play the game and spend all day complaining on here instead of dealing with their problems. It's not hard to play like 3 games as every champion and learn what they do and do infinitely better against them (very good for power spikes).

3TWarriorMar 21, 20161 votes

"not hard" well, enjoy the 3 games you play once a season that you have a one week interval to do so unless you take the easy route and pay for the champion...not hard at all XD

the first match I ever played as both yasuo and vayne, I got a triple kill and I hated their playstyle because they were incredibly high maintenance but not high skill champs

yasuo for instance basically requires that you have fast reflexes (for his kit to be most effective) and then map awareness so that he can bully his current lane (typically mid where his squishy state isn't a factor unless the opponent uses an off-meta mid)

vayne follows the same route but is much more a skill champ yet still requires fast reflexes and not necessarily skill mainly due to her having an actual kit to function around. With a decent support, she can easily abuse any engage against an opponent even early game

AstôlfoMar 21, 20165 votes

I mean, the maintenance part is why they're considered high skill. With Vayne for instance, positioning is literally the essence to winning or losing. Her being one of the literally squishiest champions with the shortest AA range for a ranged that relies on autos doesn't help either.

LaughingStaplerMar 21, 20167 votes

I'd still rather face a Zed than those disgustign Malzahars who do nothing but push instantly all game. Hell, he can even do it while sitting under turret. It's so stupid. Zed at least has clear counterplay beyond "hope your jg camps this guy".

Dominick DestineMar 21, 201626 votes

{quoted}

Zed at least has clear counterplay beyond "hope your jg camps this guy".

Uhh no... are you trolling? Zed is one of the safest mids in the game.

TotalJerkMar 21, 20163 votes

Cho'gath is completely unkillable solo.

Voluug13Mar 21, 20164 votes

If he is tank, he doesnt have the damage to kill you.

If he is AP, he is merely a potato sack of HP.

Maybe learn to safepick so he doesnt counter your FotM assassin midlaner.

And being unkillable solo isnt really useful when junglers exist and Cho is inmobile and cant handle 2 people at once. Zed can easily escape, if he is even at a risk because his Q has pretty much mage level range (and his combo has more range that most mages).

My Waifu VanillaMar 21, 20162 votes

And Cho'Gath can also farm from extremely far away to avoid being ganked so your Zed argument does go both ways. Cho'Gath IS an annoying laner to play against and probably isn't being touched due to low Pickrate and he might have something planned going on (idk). He is a huge statchecker mid lane that really doesn't lose much if he is "outstatted" since he can farm to his heart's content and avoid any confrontation since he laner can't kill him and will just perma lane with Catalyst and Passive.

Voluug13Mar 21, 20168 votes

Of course he can, like a lot of midlaners. But, oh, what is is this little thing I found about Cho!

Chogath Base Mana: 272 Base Mana Regen 7.2 Q Mana Cost: 90

Cho'gath has worse mana regen that Taric, and relies 100% on his passive to do anything in lane. He can cast 3 Qs and will go OoM. Meanwhile, Zed has energy. Oops.

Also, Zed still has more range that Cho'gath's Q on his combo, so ¯_(ツ)_/¯

Cho'Gath IS an annoying laner to play against and probably isn't being touched due to low Pickrate and he might have something planned going on (idk).

But Cho has extremely clear counterplay, is inmobile, slow and melee so he is also extremely weak to ganks. And Cho sintbeing touched because he is consiered balanced by Riot.

He is a huge statchecker mid lane that really doesn't lose much if he is "outstatted" since he can farm to his heart's content and avoid any confrontation since he laner can't kill him and will just perma lane with Catalyst and Passive.

Everything in this game is a statchecker. The difference is that Cho, unlike Zed, has extremely ample windows of counterplay, has mana, poor ranges outside Q, no mobility, etc.

Cho's counterplay is not getting hit by Q, Zed's is ''rush Zhonia for not dying, but you wont win either!''.

My Waifu VanillaMar 21, 20162 votes

EVERY Cho maxes W first so I have NO idea why you are bringing up Q mana cost and W is essentially free in lane when you restore 8+ mana per creep with DRing+Passive. You are right Zed does offer more windows of counterplay on an all-in Cho'Gath has a much more oppressive playstyle in any situation he is popular or strong. A 2.5 second long AoE silence is nothing to scoff at when it also happens to suffer from Riot's awful cone spell programming and Flat True Damage on his ult chunks every champion in the game for a large amount. Yes, Cho is immobile af, but you will eventually have to deal with him and going anywhere near melee range of him is usually a death wish (he will play similar to Illaoi where he waits for you to come to him and his team can just make you engage).

TEEMOcalypseMar 21, 20162 votes

I max q first

ahferroin7Mar 21, 20165 votes

E is better for harassing and farm, W is better against mages (I can't count the number of people I've made rage at me for interrupting their combo with W). Q has little value being maxed first unless you have a desperate need for high burst because it gains nothing but damage from ranks, and already has 100% bonus damage from AP (which is part of why AP Cho'Gath is so bursty).

TotalJerkMar 21, 20162 votes

Goalpost shift. We aren't talking about the merits of the champion. I replied to a post saying Zed is the safest mid in the game.

Sir YamazukiMar 21, 20166 votes

{quoted}

Goalpost shift. We aren't talking about the merits of the champion. I replied to a post saying Zed is the safest mid in the game.

Not dying to some champions 1v1=/=Extreme safety. Safety comes from beyond the 1v1. Cho is easy to gank since he almost always pushes, he's just an annoying brick wall unless you can burst him or dps him, but he can do nothing in a 1v2 situation other than Q and silence 1 person, which the Q is at least avoidable. Zed on the other hand doesn't care if it's a 1v2 as he can just get out. Cho also has to be in melee range to actually farm as well, unlike Zed. AP Cho is also just an immobile assassin with extra hp and a silence. That extra hp will not make up for Zed's ult that has the potential to dodge far more damage than Cho's passive on R provides and the W on Zed will also easily prevent many deaths just like R. There's also the fact you have to maintain the stacks constantly, and his sustain requires him to be last hitting minions, Zed doesn't have to worry about any of this or even manage a mana bar.

I think it's funny you're using your inability to play Corki as a means of saying Cho is safe seeing as Cho wins 40% of the time against Corki and both Cho and Corki have their strengths early on. Cho only does well against a handful of champions and is mostly picked against Zed, Kat and Yasuo since those are the champions he wins against. Everything else will either beat him in lane, or be far more relevant than him past 20 minutes.

3TWarriorMar 21, 20168 votes

malzahar runs out of mana constantly until at least level 9 and if he doesn't, he is building mana regen items, severely limiting his damage potential

he is MADE so that any one champion not immune to his spell cast for that instant can not duel him

then, as the immobile mage he is, if he is close enough to be doing damage, he should be close enough to die

heck, twisted fate has less counterplay than malzahar and had an above 50% win rate for all players....but no one has cried for twisted fate nerfs since AT LEAST season 3

heck, zed even mocks twisted because of twisted's insanely low base stats

if you want an accurate measurement, there are currently about FOUR mids who can lane against zed...several of any others have received nerfs for doing so

these champs are: Fizz Anivia Lux Zilean (zilean is probably the only mage able to match zed's wave clear and burst damage and his double Q proc(by a good zilean) combined with ult renders him immune to zed's ult or else zed will actually burst himself

upon revision, I have left out Talon , however, talon is at below 0.5% pick rate (meaning 1 in 200 mids will use him)...and even then that number drops to an even less amount when considering how many people know how to play him

Ariel the CruelMar 21, 20165 votes

zilean is probably the only mage able to match zed's wave clear and burst damage and his double Q proc(by a good zilean) combined with ult renders him immune to zed's ult or else zed will actually burst himself

I've done this. Zed was not happy. Thought it was safe to turret dive me because my ult was down. XD (Funny how often people forget Zilean can put bombs on himself.)

LaughingStaplerMar 21, 20166 votes

{quoted}

malzahar runs out of mana constantly until at least level 9 and if he doesn't, he is building mana regen items, severely limiting his damage potential

he is MADE so that any one champion not immune to his spell cast for that instant can not duel him

then, as the immobile mage he is, if he is close enough to be doing damage, he should be close enough to die

heck, twisted fate has less counterplay than malzahar and had an above 50% win rate for all players....but no one has cried for twisted fate nerfs since AT LEAST season 3

heck, zed even mocks twisted because of twisted's insanely low base stats

if you want an accurate measurement, there are currently about FOUR mids who can lane against zed...several of any others have received nerfs for doing so

these champs are: (zilean is probably the only mage able to match zed's wave clear and burst damage and his double Q proc(by a good zilean) combined with ult renders him immune to zed's ult or else zed will actually burst himself

upon revision, I have left out , however, talon is at below 0.5% pick rate (meaning 1 in 200 mids will use him)...and even then that number drops to an even less amount when considering how many people know how to play him

No he doesn't. E regains mana and all he has to do is E a low creep then auto it, aoto the next creep it goes to etc.

MyozthirirnMar 21, 20164 votes

You need to chain 6 minion kills in a row just to get the mana you used casting E Not impossible, but definetly hard

iamleburkMar 21, 20163 votes

Lissandra, Kayle, Urgot, Cho-Gath, Diana, and Leblanc.

I dont think Anivia or Lux should be beating zed. Like yeah they pressure melee's a lot, but zed has extreme kill pressure vs them post 6 and with new maw it just isn't worth it. Azir does the same thing vs Zed, wins early but is easy as fuck to solokill, and because of that Zed is considered Azir's worst matchup.

Anivia and Lux take some skill for the Zed to do right, but assuming both players are good and know the matchup really well, I think the Zed should be winning 8 times out of 10. Lux in general is a little overstated imo, she's easy as fuck to play so she has a high win rate, but once you learn to (depending on the champion) zone her away from the passive proc or dodging around the Q for a potential kill, she becomes a lot easier to deal with. Zed's goal should be to W or ult towards lux as soon as she throws out a Q. The quicker he does it, the more kill pressure he has. I would expect it would be the same thing vs Anivia, but even with Q up i think Anivia is easy to solo.

BTW arguably the best Anivia in the world, Froggen, had to play vs Bjergsen in this All star match where the community picked the champions. The community picked Anivia for froggen and Zed for Bjergsen, and Froggen was talking a lot about how shit that matchup is.

LeetriMar 21, 20162 votes

I have never ever had problems against Zed as Viktor. Just drop your W on yourself the instant he dives in and it's K. :P

Hayaishi2Mar 21, 20164 votes

Because compared to Evelynn, Zed has more than twice the counterplay and skill requirement.

Now, Zed's early game does need a nerf, the fact that he can farm safely means bad match ups aren't that much of a problem for him, Riot needs to look at his laning phase IMO.

Dominick DestineMar 21, 201619 votes

{quoted}

Because compared to Evelynn, Zed has more than twice the counterplay

LOL? Evelynn doesn't have multiple dashes and semi-invulnerability in her kit.

Evelynn is gated by mana, Zed is not.

Evelynn has atrocious defensive stats and base MS, Zed has some of the highest defensive stats for his class alongside extremely high base MS.

Evelynn's scaling is poor, Zed has some of the highest scaling.

Zed has two very easy escape mechanisms, Evelynn does not.

Your argument is garbage.

and skill requirement.

Actually Zed is way easier to play, he is brainlessly faceroll champ.

Manaless. Multiple escape mechanisms. Massive margin of error permitted.

Evelynn on the other hand; Not manaless. No escape mechanisms on the level of Zed. Very low margin of error permitted.

It's not complicated, Zed easy, Evelynn not easy.

Zed WILL get nerfed, we now know this. It's just a matter of time.

Hayaishi2Mar 21, 20166 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dominick Destine,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bFeuXBWm,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2016-03-21T00:56:00.314+0000)

LOL? Evelynn doesn't have multiple dashes and semi-invulnerability in her kit.

Evelynn is gated by mana, Zed is not.

Evelynn has atrocious defensive stats and base MS, Zed has some of the highest defensive stats for his class alongside extremely high base MS.

Evelynn's scaling is poor, Zed has some of the highest scaling.

Zed has two very easy escape mechanisms, Evelynn does not.

Your argument is garbage.

Actually Zed is way easier to play, he is brainlessly faceroll champ.

Manaless. Multiple escape mechanisms. Massive margin of error permitted.

Evelynn on the other hand; Not manaless. No escape mechanisms on the level of Zed. Very low margin of error permitted.

It's not complicated, Zed easy, Evelynn not easy.

Zed WILL get nerfed, we now know this. It's just a matter of time.

Yes scaling, mana, mobility have everything to do with whether a champion was counterplay or not. People in this forum have such a narrow view balance that it makes it impossible to argue, bet you are the same type of people that claim Lee Sin is OP and defend Yi.

"Zed is brainlessly faceroll" "Zed easy" "EVERYLYN HARD" Lmao this is just pointless. Bet you can't even play Zed or Lee Sin and whoever is it that you claim is faceroll and overpowered.

Dominick DestineMar 21, 201610 votes

{quoted}

Yes scaling, mana, mobility have everything to do with whether a champion was counterplay or not.

Yeah actually they do, even by Riot's admission. What do you think the justification for Nasus 's garbage early game or Pantheon garbage late game come from?

Mana gating is specifically part of the counter-play to balance characters like Orianna Jayce Anivia Swain .

If you were being sarcastic, you failed miserably.

"Zed is brainlessly faceroll" "Zed easy" "EVERYLYN HARD" Lmao this is just pointless.

Ah good counter-argument, oh wait....

My Waifu VanillaMar 21, 20162 votes

Except Evelynn is rarely gated by Mana since she will ALWAYS be near full mana for any all in due to her passive. If you go willy-nilly and spam Q all day and W everywhere then yes you will go OOM, but every champion goes OOM eventually if you use your spells on cooldown.

Dominick DestineMar 21, 20163 votes

[{quoted}](name=My Waifu Chocola,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bFeuXBWm,comment-id=00020000000000000001,timestamp=2016-03-21T13:03:27.731+0000)

Except Evelynn is rarely gated by Mana since she will ALWAYS be near full mana for any all in due to her passive.

A person who has not played Evelynn.

My Waifu VanillaMar 21, 20162 votes

Your passive gives you 2% missing mana a second and she doesn't have trash tier mana regen to go with it so yes, she doesn't run out of mana. She does have a bit of mana problems early game, but that goes away after the first back and never comes back unless you are not stealthed for 50 seconds straight or something (which should also never happen).

Also, I played a bit of Evelynn last season (after the W mana cost addition) and NEVER found myself wishing I had mana since it just doesn't happen.

3TWarriorMar 21, 20163 votes

really? evelynn was released where her invisibility was permanent because her damage was fairly low in the assassin class...they had to remove that feature because people could build 5 sunfire capes and do 150 damage a second to an entire enemy team

riot didn't revert the nerfs and continued to nerf her kit just because she can go invisible? she would literally need to stay invisible or have an opponent at 30-40% prepared for her in order to kill them and when she enters lane to help, her opponents just run away, as everyone would in a 3v2 matchup

heck, she could invisibly gank A failing lane and take out the "victor" of the trade without counterplay...

guess who else can do that: Pantheon Amumu Aatrox Elise Gragas Zac Tryndamere Udyr XinZhao Sion DrMundo

i'm going to shorten this list by saying LITERALLY EVERYONE CAN DO WHAT EVE CAN DO BETTER EXCEPT TURN INVISIBLE IF SHE IS NOT WITHIN 650 UNITS FOR 7 SECONDS

Dominick DestineMar 21, 20162 votes

{quoted}

really? evelynn was released where her invisibility was permanent

Wait what? do you even shadow walk active?

because her damage was fairly low in the assassin class...they had to remove that feature because people could build 5 sunfire capes and do 150 damage a second to an entire enemy team

That's... what? while what you said is somewhat true, it was never her main strength or even tangential strength... that was a troll build and nothing more.

Evelynn's real claim to fame, her strength, was the fact that Shadow Walk allowed exit from invis with a no-fail stun... your argument is complete garbo rooted purely in your lack of knowledge.

Also Evelynn was not "released", she was one of the original 40.

riot didn't revert the nerfs and continued to nerf her kit just because she can go invisible?

Are you drunk? Evelynn did get nerfed into Eve tier but she got reworked a LONG time ago.

My Waifu VanillaMar 21, 20165 votes

Evelynn's only viable build for a long time was the Sunfire build so I would hardly call it really troll. She didn't do enough damage unless she was ahead, and even then that was difficult since she couldn't clear the jungle well at the time (s0/1 jungle 3hard5me) and wasn't a good laner.

She did get reworked, but that quickly got nerfed into the ground because it was INCREDIBLY overpowered and lacked much if any counterplay (perma stealth in lane made her a great roamer/juker and %max health AoE ult that worked with DFG was retarded). Actually my least favorite part about Eve rework release was the fact her ult didn't have a cap on monsters. Upwards of 35% max health to Baron? No big deal, full damage for the easiest steals ever.

HahahahyenaMar 21, 201613 votes

Because compared to Evelynn, Zed has more than twice the counterplay and skill requirement.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGn25URIss8

KotexMar 21, 20164 votes

I don't think the problem is Zed is too strong and needs to be nerfed, i think the real problem is the lack of counterplay and containment for him specifically.

Dominick DestineMar 21, 20164 votes

{quoted}

I don't think the problem is Zed is too strong and needs to be nerfed, i think the real problem is the lack of counterplay and containment for him specifically.

/boggle You do realize that your first and second statements are completely contradictory, right?

KotexMar 21, 20164 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dominick Destine,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bFeuXBWm,comment-id=000b0000,timestamp=2016-03-21T07:45:28.386+0000)

/boggle You do realize that your first and second statements are completely contradictory, right?

How so? I mean to say its not his numbers or kit that make him strong, it's the lack of things to deal with it, for example Zhonyas is the only item you can buy against him that can counter his ultimate. Even if he gets nerfed he's still going to be zed with not alot of things to contain him other than being out snowballed which works on just about everyone too.

Dominick DestineMar 21, 20161 votes

{quoted}

How so?

Your argument , distilled to its essence is; "It's not that he's overpowered, it's that he's overpowered"

My Waifu VanillaMar 21, 20166 votes

That's not how it works at all. A champion can be strong with high counterplay or weak with no counterplay. Old poppy fell into the latter where she was far from a strong champion, but offered very little in forms of counterplay. Zed happens to be stronger than Poppy here, but his lack of counterplay in some situations is near her level. Hitting this gives more room to work with than simple numbers nerfs since no matter how hard you nerf him, if he gets ahead he will still have little counterplay due to his kit. His damage is fine to be honest (to champions that is, minions is a little high), but the ease of doing this damage compared to the work to AVOID his damage is the problem and should be what it is addressed since it is currently a lot easier to play AS Zed than AGAINST Zed, which should not be a polarizing thing to have.

Note, before you rant against me, I used the word counterplay and not counterbuild. Yes, buying Zhonya's/QSS or taking Exh are both excellent ways to deal with Zed. This is hardly counterplay and the only way to really survive Zed's burst as most COMMON mid laners outside of these options is to use a form of hard CC the second he comes out of ult or to flash the second he comes out of ult. Zed is currently in a sort of Rock-Paper-Scissors esque case where he has a higher chance to win than you. If you do not have Hard CC or work well with early armor/Zhon you lose and have to farm under tower all lane (assuming you are an AP Mage) since you will not be able to work with an all-in against him.

I am all for build/Summoner Spell diversity between games since it makes things different, the only problem is that Zed makes these decisions almost the end-all-be-all. For instance, it is HELPFUL to buy Abyssal as Diana or Ekko mid against an AP Laner, but you will not automatically die for not buying it. It is HELPFUL to take Exhuast or buy Zhonya's against Yasuo, but you will not die for not buying/taking it. Zed does not work this way since unless you are an overly tanky midlaner (Cho, most fighters, etc.) there is an extremely high possibility you will die if you do not take Exh or buy Zhonya's as a mage. That is not good game design since Zed gives up nothing for this scenario since he will go Dirk first and into Ghostblade or Maw and then pick up the one he doesn't pick first. He doesn't break a sweat in these games, while you as a mage, have to change a bit to deal with him simply existing in your lane.

TotalJerkMar 21, 20167 votes

Not remotely contradictory. Counterplay and Strength are independent things.

3TWarriorMar 21, 20163 votes

yet she was repeatedly nerfed for not having "counterplay" in lower dvisions

some evelynn's have insane burst early(not sure how...her kit even at max damage is hardly worth noticing...even urgot does more damage, just not to potentially a group?)

it never makes sense

Dominick DestineMar 21, 20168 votes

{quoted}

yet she was repeatedly nerfed for not having "counterplay" in lower dvisions

That is meaningless.

You do not balance your game around people that do not know how to play your game.

3TWarriorMar 21, 20164 votes

as a note, riot has access to the lower divisions and public(non-ranked) gameplay to make their decisions, but let's look at details which seem to contradict Riot's interests and point to riot favoritism

to counter this post, someone else did it for me on the EU nordic and East forum of league this forum does not allow NA players to access its forum features such as quoting, but I will post the details

source:

http://boards.eune.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-gameplay-en/bEnvrM2I-why-is-evelynn-getting-nerfed?comment=0000

user: Swampert 919

quote: [[ http://www.surrenderat20.net/2015/10/red-post-collection-be-victorious-one.html

he then quotes ((

In the 9/30 PBE update, Evelynn's W mana cost was increased to 40 from 0. Here's Meddler with context on the tentative change and what they hope to accomplish with it:

"We believe Eve should be somewhat more mana gated than she is at present, now that Runeglaive's in the game. We don't want to create a situation where she's OOM all the time, but adding some cost (as opposed to the current free) to the W, thereby limiting either its use or her use of other spells a bit, is we think appropriate. Power wise we also believe Eve's too strong at present in regular (non professional) play. We don't make changes driven purely by statistics (we aim for data informed, not data driven's). Eve's certainly right up there in terms of raw win rate though, with from memory the 4th or 5th highest winrate in the game at present when comparing champions as played by people with substantial experience on them. Eve's got a pretty steep mastery curve, so if her overall performance looks average it often means that her performance when played well is excessive even for someone on a champion they've played a lot (a phenomena also strongly demonstrated by other champs like Azir and Le Blanc who, if they're showing a 50% win rate in solo queue, are almost certainly very overpowered

end of his quote )) ]]

end quote

champions such as Zed fit that description perfectly in high rank and low rank

if you want evidence of Zed's scale, in platinum and above, ONE GAME ON ZED means a 48% average win rate...meaning the first EVER game the platinum player or above uses zed, they have a uniquely high chance of winning

Currently the average experienced zed player has a 56% win rate and the inexperienced a 48%

i'll pull up swain just for a reference

Swain for the ENTIRETY of season 6 did not climb above 50% win rate, dropped 2% from 49% win rate to 47% when his nerf went live and has taken 3 patches to see a 50% win rate that he did not have from the beginning of the season

swain's win rate climbs the more experience you have with him, boasting 53% at 125+ games, but at the same time, those players would be mains of the champion as for every patch of season six, swain has had below 2% pick rate

Swain is primarily picked as a counter pick and if he goes top lane, his win rate plummets, actually never rising above 45% win rate unless OBSESSIVELY picked or mained, requiring 70+ games to break the 45% win rate in platinum and above and then after an absurd amount of play (as in a player actually deserves it) his win rate can achieve 56%+

as a note, one game of swain played only has a 40% chance of victory

The Yetii RiderMar 21, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dominick Destine,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bFeuXBWm,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2016-03-21T02:23:11.165+0000)

That is meaningless.

You do not balance your game around people that do not know how to play your game.

Yeah, the 70% of the player base that is silver or below are meaningless. Why should Riot care about the overwhelming majority of its customers, it's only a company.

Not hating on your OP. This particular argument is bad though.

Zed does need a nerf, and Meddler is going to give him one.

SnowplosionMar 22, 20162 votes

You're an Eve main. Please don't bring your main into a QQ nerf Zed discussion. Speaking about people not knowing how to play the game.... Ya, that's how you lose to a Zed.

Dominick DestineMar 22, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Your an Eve main.

You're.

And yes. What's your point? do try to present an actual argument rather than attempting to insult me the way you did, Mr. Bronzie.

SnowplosionMar 22, 20162 votes

Hey Snowplosion, SILVER 4 ADC main.

Your trying to argue that one champ is more balanced and fair the another. The thing is that you main one of those champs so your opinion is highly skewed. I personal do not like Zed's current state, but you make it a highly opinionated. All you have done is taken your argument and threw it right out the window (kinda like Riot did to Eve).

Dominick DestineMar 22, 20161 votes