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Shout out to Kindred for being the only release champion to be remotely balanced since Bard

Visigoth··44 votes·3,717 views

Including every rework, other than the first Mordekaiser one, along with the Veigar and Zilean reworks, all 3 of which destroyed the champions. Seriously, the most recent champions/reworks are permabanned Fiora Darius TahmKench Mordekaiser Gangplank and even borderline Garen Skarner, those last two at least just being strong, and not absurdly broken.

Seriously, Thresh's lantern is probably one of the most frustrating abilities to play against, then you make it targeted, so the adc doesn't have to worry about grabbing it, longer lasting, the adc doesn't get damaged, and you can use it on enemies. On top of that you gave Tahm the ability to essentially have double hp. Just... Why...

Then you made Darius and Fiora absolutely retarded. Seriously, fucking, why? "Fiora's parry is too toxic reflecting one auto attack" better make it block all damage and reflect CC in an entire area. By the way, it can reflect ultimates, because fuck you. Also, her ultimate gives a big ass AoE heal. Because someone called the "Grand Duelist" should be able to 1v5 and be at full hp.

And Darius. WHAT THE FUCK?! WHY. THE. FUCK. WOULD. YOU. DO. THAT. Literally, get one kill as Darius during a teamfight, and your team pretty much won the game, because you're going to get the freest pentakill ever. Not to mention a huge heal on his Q, which can restore up to a third of your health if you're low and hit 3 people.

I'm not even going to talk about the damage of Mordekaiser's Q and him ulting fucking dragon. And who could forget GP's barrels which are apparently not filled with gunpowder, but nuclear warheads.

Maybe there's a problem when every new champion/rework has like a 95% pick/ban rate in worlds.

83 Comments

Lazypeon10029 votes

Velkoz

Earthpine4 votes

Since Bard.

DemaciaClown5 votes

Can someone explain my silver ass how velkoz is balanced? He has poke, burst, teamfight and dps. But he is squishy and imobile. Heck, I can't even beat him with my main, galio. Laning against him, mid or support is awful -when ya can't dodge shit-.

Lazypeon10011 votes

I can try to help you out, sure. You actually mentioned his greatest weaknesses. He is incredibly immobile, and everything he has is a skill shot. His damage isn't over bearing and he is rewarded for using autos / hitting an enemy 3 times with spells to use his passive. He has a stun, but that is on a channel which can be dodged. His Q can be avoided with good positioning. Either going out of the max range or going in closer to try to dodge his break up point adds good counter play. When he ults he cannot move at all (besides turning.)

Good champions to pick into vel would be assasins, or someone with strong wave clear as well. Let's say I'm an ekko fighting a vel. My wave clear isn't that bad for an assasin, but vel will have a better wave clear. To counter this, I can wait for him to toss out Q or E, dodge it and engage knowing I will win the trade, or I can easily roam and gank my other lanes, knowing his follow up will be slow.

These are just a few things off the top of my head, I'd mention more but chipotle is calling to me man.

DemaciaClown3 votes

Great explanation, but sadly I don't play mobile/flashy champs. Maybe yasuo but I stopped when I played AGAINST him. Cause I'm a nice person and all.

Lazypeon1002 votes

I understand completely, as I personally use more immobile champs as far as my mid lane picks go. For instance, I like Velkoz Anivia Xerath Veigar as some of my picks. For these champions, it is important to stay up with vel on cs in the early game. Xerath can harrass Velkoz back and has a passive to out sustain vel on mana and is very safe. Anivia has 600 range on her autos which can be used to help harrass, and after 6 you can E + R combo vel if he ever gets to close. By that point she has better wave clear. Veigar with enough stacks on his Q can wave clear just fine and has a much higher kill potential against vel in a duel.

They all have strengths and weaknesses. I personally love anivia, a lot of players forget about her passive and will die because of the eggnivia saving her.

DemaciaClown2 votes

I think the concept of the champ is great overall, but it's the ult that always gets me. I believe the slow was unecessary with that huuge range.

Bârd1 votes

Yes, but that was a LONG time ago.

Stacona13 votes

Bard was super underpowered on release

Drukyul2 votes

but everyone said he was balanced, and maybe even OP in pro play just you wait and see!

and now he's had buffs and still doing terrible at the top levels of play

Stacona1 votes

Bard is super strong now - but he was underpowered on release

Drukyul1 votes

3.2% pick/ban, 0% win rate at worlds doesn't scream "super strong" to me

Stacona1 votes

That is the dumbest thing someone has ever said...

Context obviously does not play a factor at all; but Bard was picked in games that were trolls games, on a losing team, on the lesser team, and had no hopes of winning the game - so you are basing off a fact from a very obscured statistic that is completely irrelevant-

You really need to use your brain instead of blinding following like sheep and jumping off the cliff because Bjergsen and Froggen are doing it does not mean you have to, and need to think for yourself and see why something is being done also perhaps see for yourselves what works and what does not work - 99% of the champions are always viable. Bard is super strong right now, he also requires skill and team coordination does help as well- but people need to realize Bard is a hyper support, the first of their kind.

Drukyul1 votes

That doesn't change that if Bard were super strong, he'd be seeing serious play, or at least be getting banned out, at the top levels. He isn't. Viable is not the same as "super strong".

In any case how is C9 vs. IG a troll game? C9 went on to lose to IG later when IG was using Kennen as support instead of Bard. What does that make Kennen support? "Godlike strong"?

Stacona1 votes

There are lots of champions that are strong that people forget they even exist

Anidan1 votes

Galio item 3070

Stacona1 votes

Galio is super fun; the fact that people are playing utility mage, waveclearing, teleport mids you think Galio would get played - but he has super strong peel and protection for his team, and makes his marksman into a tank; he is the true juggermaw champion but no one picks him because they forget about the gargoyle

ForeverLaxx2 votes

Because he still has a stamp that says "I'm only good if the enemy team is stacking AP champions". His reliance on Flash certainly does him no favors, though.

BastionKross1 votes

I was just going to say this. Bard wasn't OP on release like a lot of other champs, but I would not have called him "balanced" either. He felt like 3/4ths of a champ until Riot buffed him up.

Daen6 votes

Agreed, though the fact Kindred's mark almost always applies on Scuttle Crab really makes me despise the champion. The whole point of that passive, from my perspective, is to encourage counterjungling and fighting over camps with some risk; having it be Scuttle Crab basically every time really doesn't accomplish that, it essentially just forces her opposing jungler to contest every scuttle regardless of jungle pathing or gank patterns.

/soapbox. Overall point of the thread, agreed. I'd like to go into some specifics on the champions you mentioned, and what I feel are the problems with them.

Fiora - While she remains strong, I think Riot hit the right thing by making her ult require significant investment to get the full benefits of her heal. I don't really feel like she's in the insane pick/ban bracket any more in normal play, but she's still a very strong top laner with reasonable counterplay.

Darius - In my mind, he just has too many tools to deal with enemy melee champions. He has solid counterplay against ranged champions and melee tops with ranged poke, but if you happen to be a melee top laner without effective poke you're in for a terrible time. There's basically no way to outplay Darius if you're forced to be within 400 range of him, because between the heal, massive slow, and displacement he'll pretty easily get five bleed stacks on you and suddenly have a 4k gold advantage for the remainder of the fight.

TahmKench - I think he's actually pretty close to being OK, especially in lane. He's super overbearing at the moment, however, and I feel like this is almost exclusively tied to how easily he can utilize Devour to save allies. Lots of supports (or characters in general) have the ability to save allies, but very few can do so quite as effectively as Tahm Kench. Not only does he completely remove the target from the fight, but in order to actually get that target you have to be able to burn through about 6k effective health or catch his crazy movement speed increase.

Mordekaiser - Honestly, he might be OK if it weren't for his completely unnecessary and blatantly ridiculous W passive. That passive shouldn't exist on anyone, and it's amazing to me that they basically gave Mordekaiser a "you get double experience" passive when they previously nerfed Zilean's experience passive for being too strong.

Gangplank - GP...I dunno. I feel like his barrels are a bit too easy to activate for the amount of counterplay they offer in lane, and they are obviously insane in teamfights due to the fact they ignore a portion of armor and can AoE crit. The champion overall seems fine, from a design standpoint, it just seems like the barrels simply do too much damage.

Lazypeon1001 votes

It is not always scuttle crab. Though the crab is safer, it still encourages teams to collapse on kindred and for the jungler to contest it. That crab is a lot more important that people give it credit for. It's also no where close to always, considering the mark is completely random and will mark any enemy camp / scuttles if they are alove. This includes camps you're already killing.

Daen1 votes

It's not always scuttle crab, but when a crab is available to be marked it pretty much always is. The next few times you see Kindred, count how many times their passive marks Scuttle Crab rather than an enemy camp.

Though the crab is safer, it still encourages teams to collapse on kindred and for the jungler to contest it.

The problem there, from my perspective, is that it basically forces the jungler to rapidly change his or her pathing just to contest what is supposed to be a neutral objective. Scuttle Crab is definitely important, yes, but when it's marked by Kindred it becomes borderline mandatory to immediately make a beeline for it.

It's also no where close to always, considering the mark is completely random and will mark any enemy camp / scuttles if they are alove. This includes camps you're already killing.

For junglers that clear their jungle efficiently, this means that the random chance basically always falls on Scuttle Crab. It's very possible for a fast jungler to completely clear his or her jungle every time it's up, which means that the only possible spawn becomes one of the two crabs depending on when their mark happens to apply.

Lazypeon1001 votes

The first mark comes up right as the junglers are doing red / blue. Assuming no one took other camps, that leaves the mark with a 60% to dpawn in the enemy jungle. One of the crabs will be far away from kindred which makes it a bit more dangerous to go for it immediately as well. This might be different against exceptoonally fast clear times like Nocturne. I'll go ahead and count the scuttle marks for you when I play them (I play them A LOT) but usually I hit 5-6 stacks by 13-15 minutes. They spawn once a minute (just from my experience eyeballimg it.) But even with fast jjnglers it shouldn't always fall on scuttles. The jungler SHOULD be ganking, pressuring lanes and other objectives. I find it very rare to see another jungler who is constantly clearing their jungle so marks fall only on scuttles also actually helping their team.

I think you make a valid point about the marked camps (especially scuttles) becoming mandatory, but I disagree about that being a bad thing. It encourages warding, team cooperation, and it is a very clear counter play to a champion. Without those marks, Kindred is worthless and will do the lowest dps of any adc due to their low base ad (it is lower than sorakas!), low scalings, and low range. I think that it is fair to deny Kindred those stacks as counterplay, because if they get them you're in some deep trouble.

Now, what they do need to fix is the bug where you can get two stacks from a marked camp by kiting other camps to the marked camp.

Daen1 votes

I think you make a valid point about the marked camps (especially scuttles) becoming mandatory, but I disagree about that being a bad thing. It encourages warding, team cooperation, and it is a very clear counter play to a champion.

I'm very OK with marked camps, and I think it's a really interesting dynamic, but I feel like it's far more engaging for Kindred to have to get to her opponent's Raptors or Gromp than it is for her to hang out in neutral territory contesting a crab. When she needs to counterjungle in order to stack efficiently it's more reliant on her own skill and knowledge, whereas stacking off Scuttle Crab is more reliant on factors somewhat out of her control (lane roam and ward placement).

They both have their place, but the fact that the more efficiently the enemy jungler clears his/her own camps the more often she gets scuttle marks seems a bit counter-intuitive.

Lazypeon1001 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Jag,realm=NA,application-id=cIfEodbz,discussion-id=URqfELUH,comment-id=00180001,timestamp=2015-10-23T22:01:56.533+0000)

Kindred may be reasonable for the average player, but she is definitely too strong when in the hands of a capable/experienced player right now. I think we're going to look into narrowing that gap some.

That is from Riot Jag. Not sure what to make of it honestly. I personally disagree with his assesment, in higher elos kindred is much easier to counter die to increased team coordination and map awareness. But making them more accessible to less skilled players is also welcome.

DorkunedAuras1 votes

It's more Kindred being very strong with a good player against potentially equally skilled players. In low to mid elo, Kind is kinda OP. Not 5.16 Skarner, but above the average power curve.

Lazypeon1001 votes

I think you're right that a better player will find them easier to use, but I disagree with the assessment of them being better at higher elo (so did most people in the thread considering jag was sent into down vote hell). I think it is the opposite actually. Higher elo players will have a better understanding of where kindred is, they know to collapse and get free kills off of them, and to deny stacks. Lower elo players don't do that, so kindred hits their stacks more easily if they are played properly.

I'm still seeing a lot of kindreds building wrong, which doesn't help me feel better about jag's assessment since they are still so new. Most common thing I see people building which ghey shouldn't is BT. I would understand if the enemy is running thornmail, but 9 times out of 10, they arentaren't BT isn't a very good item on them because of their low base values, their low natural AS scaling through level, and their low scaling on all of their abilities.

Lazypeon1001 votes

Just wanted to give an update, last night I played a total of three games as Kindred. In every one of those games the scuttle crabs were marked twice for me. It wasn't always the first mark (two times it was, both near me). In every game I hit six stacks before 20. Hope this insight helps some.

RisenDarkKnight1 votes

Well you could change up your route and kill scuttle preemptively before killing some of you jungle camps. It will only pick the crabs if you kill your jg camps while leaving the crabs up, so why not do the opposite? It's especially helpful for junglers who take a lot of damage in the jg as crabs provide gold and xp without fighting back, and you get chance to regen a little while fighting them.

ProfDrDeath1 votes

Darius:

Actually, counter-intuitive as it may be, the key to beating the big D in a trade as a melee champ is to snuggle with him closely until the Q is used - unless you're hit by the blade, he does not regain any health, and he deals not much more than an auto-attack with the handle.

Daen4 votes

the key to beating the big D in a trade as a melee champ is to snuggle with him closely until the Q is used - unless you're hit by the blade, he does not regain any health, and he deals not much more than an auto-attack with the handle.

There are two distinct problems with that particular assessment.

  1. Most melee champions have relatively large models, enough so that Darius can very easily move half a teemo away from direct melee range and hit you with the blade.

  2. Melee range is where Darius completely dominates other champions, due to the following combo:

  • Q - If the blade hits, that's 1 bleed stack.
  • Autoattack - 1 bleed stack.
  • AA Empower - 1 bleed stack & 90% slow
  • Autoattack - 1 bleed stack
  • Autoattack - 1 bleed stack

This combo takes about 2 seconds, and at this point he is 5-stacked; this gives him between 1.2k and 5k gold worth of free AD, and unless his opponent is dramatically ahead of him that's an effectively insurmountable gold advantage for the remainder of the fight (not including his 250-1000 true damage targeted nuke).

Later in the game this is less of a direct problem, but during the laning phase it's very oppressive for melee top laners without ranged poke.

DorkunedAuras1 votes

the Q-AA-W combo takes about 1.2 seconds, and darius WILL NOT get another auto attack in that "2 second" time, because of his horrible AS. Just remember to disengage after a decent skirmish, and as long as you can keep his stacks down and dodge the blades, laning against him isn't horrible. IMO Xin, Jax, and Irelia are good laners against him because they can jump on him when he Qs and out damage him in the ensuing trade.

Daen1 votes

the Q-AA-W combo takes about 1.2 seconds

You seem to be forgetting the 90% slow and the fact it's an autoattack reset. The Q-AA-W piece can basically happen instantly, then one further AA isn't hard to land while your opponent is slowed by 90%. That's already 4 stacks with basically zero retaliation potential from the enemy, and if you try to disengage after that point Darius can just E you back in, hit you for the 5th stack, and suddenly have a huge gold advantage.

IMO Xin, Jax, and Irelia are good laners against him because they can jump on him when he Qs and out damage him in the ensuing trade.

I mean, are you seeing why this actually points to him having terrible counterplay against melee? The only melee-specific champions you've mentioned able to deal with him are widely known to be absurdly strong duelists, and it basically comes down to a gear check where the duelist needs to be able to either burst him down faster than he can get stacks or outdamage him despite his 40-200 AD buff in a sustained trade.

Keep in mind, as well, that all three of those champions need at least one full item, usually 2 (bork/trinity) before they really start excelling as duelists. Darius, meanwhile, has high sustain and base power so he's far less item reliant early in the game.

Lumen Sage1 votes

I have played Kindred a lot and the first mark almost always seems to be scuttle crap, same with second. However once you have three stacks, the mark seems to move into the enemy jungle most of the time. I would assume this is intentional to insure that Kindred can with some ease get a bare minimum of stacks. Without stacks she has no passive after all.

Usually I end a match with between 7-9 stacks, with my record being 13 and my lowest being just 5 after an abysmal game where the enemy was very efficient at killing the marked targets.

A good trick I have found when playing against Kindred is that if you spot her mark on a deep jungle minion, like wolves, don't kill it. The mark only moves when the marked jungle minion is dead and as long as they are not ahead, most enemies will think twice about moving that far into the enemy jungle. Just ward up at the mark so you can ambush them if they do appear.

JJI7445 votes

Tahm was probably balanced on release. Just that people played/built him poorly. The problem with Tahm was that while people could learn to play as Tahm, you knew everything you could do to play against Tahm instantly. (Not hard to learn nothing) But he got buffs since he seemed weak, while at the same time people started to realize the power of his kit. Now he is near pick/ban.

See also: Yasuo. Same problem, learning to play as yasuo took time and made the champ a hell of a lot stronger. Learning to play against him was quick but didn't improve your chances too much. He got buffed in the interval when everyone was playing poorly, and has prettymuch been getting nerfed since people discovered he was incredibly strong/overbearing once you got the mechanics down.

ForeverLaxx1 votes

This is just what Riot does when a champion isn't getting picked.

Varalessia4 votes

i seriously dont get why people are whining about Fiora's riposte, it's her most well done and compared to her other abilities her most balanced. The defense needs to be planned and predicted to counter and punish your opponent, it fits the "Precise duelist" thematic perfectly as well as taking skill to use. Play around it and don't just throw your abilities at her, in every snarky Yasuo players words, "bait it"

TurquoiseYoshi2 votes

Riposte is actually a really cool spell. It's her Q homing in on vitals, her vitals doing %max HP true damage, and her E slowing, then critting that make her OP.

Anidan1 votes

In fairness, her Q homing on Vitals wouldn't be bad if the Vitals themselves were doing appropriate damage. She has a pretty good and well-designed kit right now, but the way I see it is that the values on Vitals are screwing with its balance pretty hard.

TurquoiseYoshi1 votes

True, true. I really don't think all of those things should be taken out (like how I can list tons of OP Kalista tools), but one needs to go for Fiora to be balanced.

Wind Whistler2 votes

Tahm Kench was pretty good on release. Maybe a little bit on the weak side, but still very well balanced. They buffed him a little too hard in later patches, though.

LordForrest2 votes

Came expecting a decent post about a well made champ, got salt. A mouthful of salt, like literally choking on salt.

Scorpionex2 votes

As a side note anyone else get better at adc just by playing kindred in the jungle?

BlunterMonk1 votes

Tahm Kench was very balanced at release, and he did not get a rework, just a very good buff.

Darius has always been a snowball champion, just like Fiora Riven and most assassins.

bad manner kid2 votes

{quoted}

Tahm Kench was very balanced at release, and he did not get a rework, just a very good buff.

Darius has always been a snowball champion, just like Fiora Riven and most assassins.

Darius can still be a snowball champion without an unbalanced self-heal mechanic.

For instance, I was playing Volibear vs Darius... I hit him to 5% and he was running to tower, I was about 30% HP. He Qs me while running away and turns on me and kills me. How is that healthy? "You beat Darius and punished him for making bad decisions, but his signature poke ability can always turn the fight."

3tyson1 votes

{quoted}

Tahm Kench was very balanced at release, and he did not get a rework, just a very good buff.

Darius has always been a snowball champion, just like Fiora Riven and most assassins.

yeh i feel like tahm was balanced on release but is op now ...

76Summers1 votes

lol fuck no thats totally wrong...

Varalessia5 votes

thats a whole lot of evidence you provided there bud

76Summers1 votes

Dashes on 2 second cooldown and percent damages everywhere?? and you all aren't complaining??? it's because lamb is a girl ain't it??? Unfreakingbelivable.....

Lazypeon1001 votes

Yes. Clearly it is because lamb is a girl, totally ignoring the fact that kindred is both female / male and is just death personified. That is it. No one Kalista has Vayne hated a Riven female champion before.

Or maybe people are defending kindred because they actually are balanced, have obvious counter play, and their damage takes time to build up in any meaningful way that you can stop.

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