Champions, minions, monsters, towers, baron, dragons, etc
Should be changed to a %damage buff to enemy champs instead (albeit a small number, nowhere near the current infernal %s)
ADepressedLeona37 votesAll the other dragons serve a pretty niche purpose
But inferal is like "Alright you kill everything faster, go have fun" It really needs to be changed so it's not the best dragon in the game
Sinlaire30 votesRiot provided numbers about 2 months ago showing with their own data gathered, infernal drag actually places about 3rd in most influential dragons in the game.
behind ocean and wind drake. it tied with mountain drake and elder took last because its spawns too late and gets taken too infrequently to give it proper comparison. meaning it fell middle of the pack and really wasnt even close to best drag in game.
Infernal looks good on paper, but look at it like this. Infernal drag boosts % AP and % AD. but if you are using a non auto attack based champion, then most of your AP and AD are only relevant in your skills.
lets say your Q has a 60% ratio, your W no scaling, your E a 60% ratio, and your ult a 60%+60% ratio. then that means You will only get 60% of the infernal drags buff on your Q and your E, no effect whatsoever on your W, and 120% of the dragons effect on the ultimate. That's it.
some champions have scalings as low as 20 and 40% in some areas while other champions may have their damage scale on things like health and mana pool (
). making it so that blue boy is only getting half benefit from red drake as only half his AP scaling is tuned around him having actual AP.
The red drag is a trap in that everyone seems to THINK that the %BOOST it gives to stats is how much every champions damage goes up, but it isn't. since there are little to no kits in all of league of legends that 100% scaling anywhere outside of their ultimates. meaning other than auto attack based champs who can use the AD boost for better autos, everyone has to rely only scaling giving them a watered down buff that isn't nearly as effective as they thought it was.
It Hertz When IP9 votessince there are little to no kits in all of league of legends that 100% scaling anywhere outside of their ultimates
laughs in evil
Ryuyah4 votes
Sagan Forever4 votesJhin is the strongest not charcter that gets equal too or great than damage from infernal and it is some crazy amount like 12% per drake. Edit I was wrong look below
HarIe4 votesActually, that was later found to been inaccurate. It's really closer to a 4.5% increase in damage.
Post from which the erroneous 12% Jhin was derived, although the other data is fine: https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/50btpg/the_true_value_of_infernal_drake_a_nuanced_damage/ Jhin correction, along with additional champions: https://www.reddit.com/r/AquaDragon/comments/50v367/infernal_drake_on_ad_multipliers_master_yi_rengar/
KoggyStyle1 votes
shu shu pada ahahahahaha
Otter Fire2 votesNot quite, Kog'Maw has both ap and ad scaling and is an auto attack based champion with an ability to add scaling ap % of max health damage to auto attacks (though it is .01 of ap, but still). Katarina and Akali are better examples of this though and your math is a little off, it would be (ap/ad x dragon buff) x % ap/ad scaling. So if you have say 100 ap, one fire dragon ( x .08 ap) would give you 8 ap and your 60% ap scaling ability would then total to 64.8 ap added to the base damage of the ability. your calculation would be like (ap/ad x % ap/ad scaling) + (dragon buff * % ap/ad scaling). this calculation would drastically hamper the damage buff received from fire dragon. I may have misread your math but my calculation seems to be what you are looking at.
NodirjonSattarov2 votesKog'Maw's only AD scaling is his ult which scales with Bonus AD which he builds very little of
PB4UAME3 votesAnd a 1.0 ratio on every auto ffs.
ChaoticPinecone1 votesBut doesnt Kog tend to build lower-amounts of AD compared to other ADCs? He tends to rely heavily on his W, so he goes any combination of Trinity/BotRK/WitsEnd/Runnans/Rageblade. He might get both scalings, he doesnt get the raw 300+ AD that a traditional ADC gets nor does he get an IE for the 2.5 crit multiplier.
Otter Fire1 votesYes he does build fewer AD items compared to most other ADCs so that he may build more attack speed, however he still takes better advantage of both sides of the dragon buff than other ADCs. Also you forget that his w adds an on hit % of max health damage booster to his autos which scales on ap. So while he has this ability active he has ad and ap damage applied to his auto attacks and with BotRK and Guinsoo's as well as Fervor of Battle all being his primary source of AD he can still use the dragon buff.
Sinlaire1 votesyour numbers are right but i dont think you properly portrayed how they go into effect.
100 AP + 8% from drag does make 108. but then the math actually needs to go another way. the 60% ap scaling generating the 64.8 ap is the number we need for the next set.
Ability A does 100 damage base with 60% AP scaling. mage has 100 ap making his spell do 160 damage. After infernal we see mage with 108 AP and 60% scaling generating 64.8 AP. base damage is still 100 so AP scaling says spell now does 164.8 damage.
this means mage did 4.8% more damage on ability A after infernal dragon.
the change of base AP does increase the amount of AP the scalings are taking into effect, but scaling still only use a % of the stats in question. meaning unless an ability has 100% or more scaling, you will always get less damage than the number assumed by the dragons buff. So yes, the damage buff received by infernal drake is in fact hampered at nearly all times.
Glory ln Death1 votesThat's a 3% increase after infernal drake, not 4.8.
Otter Fire1 votesThis is what I'm saying, other than the 4.8% more damage part, fire dragon only adds to your champions base stat, not their ability's base damage, I was trying to sort your math on your earlier post to clarify.
ADepressedLeona2 votesHuh, that's actually pretty interesting.
But if that's the case, it really needs to be changed if it's bad at being a stat stick increase, which is it's only real purpose.
Faceroll Tactics3 votesOn the opposite end of the spectrum, champions like riven get 20% ad which is multiplied by infernal drag before and after being cast, and if factoring in the full combo of q auto q auto q auto w auto e auto wind slash Tiamat, thats 11 instances of damage (and one instance of shielding) all buffed by infernal drag.
This is why I advocate that the removal of 10 ad on black cleaver was a huge nerf, because that's 10 ad, 12 times.
FTWolf1 votesOn the other hand, she's not broken nor was she broken before black cleaver got nerfed. She's probably in the middle of the pack for top laners, maybe a little lower.
Faceroll Tactics1 votesThe lethality build on riven that omits black cleaver entirely makes her one of the strongest top laners and a huge lane bully post 6
2 of the top 15 top lane players on NA are riven mains, Viper and Adrian to be specific
FTWolf1 votesViper is top challenger while adrian is masters maybe challenger now but I haven't checked. Sure the build is strong, but she's incredibly squishy and barely has cdr. pre 6 if she even comes close to killing you, you fucked up because she does minimal dmg that early.
ChaoticPinecone1 votesI think he meant Revenge and Viper. Adrian hasnt been a top challenger in a while, and Viper recently dropped somewhere to 50, but I remember a month or so both were in top 5.
FTWolf1 votesRevenge barely even plays riven anymore if any. It's not often that you see him play riven. Once every 20 games or so.
ChaoticPinecone1 votesWell, yeah - he is rank 1 and can maintain it by playing what he wants. But he did get to Rank 1 playing mostly Riven, to the point where its still his most played champ (though Jayce and Fiora are coming close)
Borbland1 votesThats true. People tend to think Infernal is extremly strong due to its generalistic bonuses, but compared to wind or ocean these bonuses are fairly small.
Spoofghoul4 votesWell you make a good point, ill add to that
infernal is only usefull for half your team
the other half is tanks with no ap/ad or a support with no ap/ad
none of those people benefit from infernal in the slightest
they do benefit from the other drakes but more so from wind and ocean then from mountain since they don't have much damage to boost in the first place although it does help them alot for taking towers where ap/ads often don't even really need it
it's just that infernal benefits half the team, mountain benefits the other half of the team but only a little, and wind and ocean benefit everyone
however even if this is the case that still does not mean that infernal can't be too strong
Considering how mountain works i don't think a similar % approach would be the best way, it would help everyone more and might end up being stronger on carries then current infernal which means it has to be nerfed to where it isn't effective on anyone else anymore. Just look at masteries and see what % amps did
Unvictus1 votesIt currently is a % increase....
Glory ln Death1 votesIt's a % increase to AP and AD. If it were changed to a straight % increase to damage dealt to enemy champions - like the OP suggests - it would be more powerful than it is now.
LankPants1 votesRiot provided numbers about 2 months ago showing with their own data gathered, infernal drag actually places about 3rd in most influential dragons in the game.
behind ocean and wind drake. it tied with mountain drake and elder took last because its spawns too late and gets taken too infrequently to give it proper comparison. meaning it fell middle of the pack and really wasnt even close to best drag in game.
This is a good example of why correlation=/=causation. Of course teams with a Cloud or Ocean are more likely to win than teams with an Infernal, they're more likely to be ahead when they take the drake. You don't risk a steal for Cloud or Ocean, you let the enemies take it. If I'm down 7 kills in a game, it looks bleak and I'm in a position to steal Infernal or Mountain even if it's high risk you can sure as hell bet I'll try, sometimes it works too. Just because I steal an Infernal or a Mountain though it doesn't mean I've swung the game, if I was down massively before I'm still down significantly.
Sinlaire1 votesIs correlation causation here or not? You see, here you say the winning team is going to get the ocean and cloud drakes and the losing team wont contest.
you say the losing team will attempt to dive and steal mountain and infernal drakes in order to try to either stall or turn. but referring back to your first point, the winning team is most likely to get the dragon in the first place. which means statistically speaking you yourself pointed out that the majority of dragons taken are most likely going to be by the team that is going to win.
This in theory should atleast mean that if MOST dragons are taken by the winning team you can atleast infer from the data taken from the dragons taken by winning team, which dragons which team they had when they won, and scrape together numbers on what dragons are LIKELY the biggest factors in that win.
if you collect data from 100 million games ( a number easily achieved by riot), and more teams won with wind and cloud drake than with infernal and mountain, it would be safe to at least assume if not state outright that these dragons are possibly the most influential in a game. if you claim that it's only worth stealing mountain and infernal dragon, then you would generally assume that in 100 million games played and 100 million cases of losing teams placing higher priority in securing these dragons in order to stop themselves from losing, that these dragons had in fact the power to generate this turn around.
instead, in 4 dragons (excluding elder), mountain and infenal dragon took the bottom two slots in highest win rate. because losing teams fought for a dragon that didnt help them win. they "gave away" dragons they thought werent of benefit and gave free power to their enemies, and fought for a dragon that wouldnt save them.
so yeah. looking at that data, i would say damningly that mountain and infernal dragon are the worst dragons in the game, because no one gets a monopoly and no one gets to use them to win. everyone is so worried about the 2 perceived "strongest" dragons in game they give their enemies free power and dig their own graves. anyone who denies numbers from literally hundreds of millions of games of collected data just because they want to think their own opinion of the strongest dragon in game is what is true (as is happening in this thread), is why those two dragons dont win games. because they let the enemy win by only caring about their coveted golden children.
LankPants1 votesyou say the losing team will attempt to dive and steal mountain and infernal drakes in order to try to either stall or turn. but referring back to your first point, the winning team is most likely to get the dragon in the first place. which means statistically speaking you yourself pointed out that the majority of dragons taken are most likely going to be by the team that is going to win.
The winning team is still more likely to get the Drake, but the difference between winning teams with Infernal and losing teams with Infernal is smaller. It's more of a 75/25 split between a winning team grabbing on and a losing team grabbing on rather than a 95/5 split with Cloud and Ocean.
instead, in 4 dragons (excluding elder), mountain and infenal dragon took the bottom two slots in highest win rate. because losing teams fought for a dragon that didnt help them win. they "gave away" dragons they thought werent of benefit and gave free power to their enemies, and fought for a dragon that wouldnt save them.
Who said it didn't help them? It probably made the game closer than not taking it. That still doesn't mean they won.
so yeah. looking at that data, i would say damningly that mountain and infernal dragon are the worst dragons in the game, because no one gets a monopoly and no one gets to use them to win. everyone is so worried about the 2 perceived "strongest" dragons in game they give their enemies free power and dig their own graves. anyone who denies numbers from literally hundreds of millions of games of collected data just because they want to think their own opinion of the strongest dragon in game is what is true (as is happening in this thread), is why those two dragons dont win games. because they let the enemy win by only caring about their coveted golden children.
Stop trying to use statistics to argue against common knowledge and common sense. Statistics can be misleading when you don't consider what you're looking at. I gave you the reason why statistics don't line up with common knowledge. What you can't do is argue against all the expert knowledge against you, everyone agrees from Bronze to pro that the ranking of Drakes is Infernal>Mountain>Cloud>Ocean and there's good reasons why losing teams don't get Oceans but do get Infernals.
Unvictus1 votesI completely agree. Not to mention you have to actually be building offensive stats to make use of it because it's a % increase. If you have a tank support and a beefier top and jungle who maybe only build 1-2 damage items then the only champs really getting use out of it would be mid and adc. If you pick a full damage dealer comp and you happen to get multiple infernal drakes and you make that your objective, then shouldn't you get rewarded for proactive play? Sounds like a niche to me
KorZod1 votesThey admitted that there may be confounding variables tho, as teams who are likely to be ahead will be more able to pick up a wind drake (low risk, low reward) as opposed to two even teams, where wind doesn't give as good a benefit for the risk, but they may fight over the other 3 (high risk high reward.
THE RlVER KlNG6 votesHonestly infernal is just stupid no matter what iteration
a drake that just gives straight damage is horrible design from the start. while the other drakes have their own problems, there shouldnt be a dragon that just gives straight damage - that is baron's job and baron is exponentially harder to kill and secure.
especially considering certain champions, like Jhin, get such a ridiculous amount of power from infernal dragons its not even funny (and that AD champions benefit more, unless there is a veigar or something)
Saucy Sells1 votesBaron isn't about increased damage anymore. It still gives the ap/ad bonus but it's much more about the baron empowered minions it gives which are used for seiging and maybe split pushing too, so I'd argue there's not that much overlap with infernal drake.
SteelMankind4 votesAD/AP boost only improves the damage of champs with good scaling, i.e., everything that's not a enchanter, warden, or vanguard. %damage buffs would increase everyone's damage.
Faceroll Tactics1 votesI think you're looking for significantly improve, 2 extra ad on a vanguard is still 2 extra ad.
FTWolf1 votesBarely does anything, if it even does anything at all.
SteelMankind1 votesThis. If the champ actually doesn't have any bonus AD or AP at all, it will literally do nothing.
Glory ln Death1 votesWell, not literally nothing. It increases their base AD, not just bonus. But still a very small effect.
An Enemy Sutando4 votesWhat if we made Fire Dragon the tower-melting one instead of Earth Dragon, and gave Earth Dragon another purpose?
CarameI Frappe4 votesJust replace Inferno Drake with "Steel Drake" where it gives your towers extra armor / HP. Would be more useful (also stated this in another thread, hoping Riot sees it but eh ... worth a shot at least.)
khorney3 votesyes the minor damage to cs or jungle or i can get mountain and take baron in less time.
MrHaZeYo3 votesThing is, Infernal only helps those who scale on massive amounts of AP/AD.
Tanks, Attack Speed Champs, Supports, don't scale on it as well. Compared to all 3 of the other drakes + Elder which helps ever Champion on the receiving end.
Lets say your team is Mao'kai, Amumu, Azir, Jihn, and Thresh. Only Azir and Jihn really truly benefit from Infernal, but all 5 benefit to the other dragons.
Some team comps scale better with the Infernal then the others, every team comp scales well with the other drags.
Laser PP Razor1 votesThis is one reason the team gold dragon gave was nice... No rgn factor and every team member gets benefitted.
Owyn1 votes%damage buff to enemy champs instead (albeit a small number, nowhere near the current infernal %s)
I think it's pretty the same. it's a PvP game, damage to players is what mostly matters
Laser PP Razor1 votesThen why is there a damage buff that gives you damage to only towers and epic monsters...
Owyn2 votesTo make a "YOU LOSE" slot in the dragon spawning lottery?
