So fun losing 60%~70% of my total hp at lvl 3 because i got near the wave, and of course i cant fight back as she W backwards immediatly after destroying my hp, now i have to zone myself from the wave or die.
Have you fking forgot why you reworked her in the first place balance team? What the fk?
Fisher No Chains29 votesIf you zone yourself from the wave after she all-ins then you’re doing it COMPLETELY wrong.
You are supposed to abuse her cooldowns. Her W has a 14-10 cd, her E 14s, and her Q deals little to no damage early if you don’t proc it.
I’ve never seen someone in high elo get hit by a QW unless they are cocky as fuck. A lot of very high elo streamers NEVER use QW because their opponents are smart enough to be out of the W range (which, believe it or not, is smaller than 90% of every other midlaner spell’s range).
Tl;dr: don’t give her kills, farm safely and don’t expect to win early trades against her. She’s a lane bully and unless you’re playing a hard counter you can’t win 1v1 (and you SHOULDN’T). If LB is 0/0/0 at level 6, then you’re likely to win the game.
Teridax6811 votesI feel a huge mistake a lot of players make is that they retreat right after their opponent chunked them with an ability in lane. If that champion just used their abilities to damage you, that means their abilities are on cooldown, and they are effectively silenced for the duration, which puts you at less of an disadvantage than if you were to attack them when their cooldowns are back up. As such, a lot of players end up falling into this loop where they get chunked, retreat and hide, and only emerge to play aggressively again at a point where their opponent's abilities are back up, whereupon they get chunked once more and quickly lose. This is especially visible when playing against assassins, where a lot of players run away after being bursted, rather than before. I don't think LeBlanc's laning phase is perfectly healthy either, as it's gone back to her pre-rework pattern that was notoriously unpopular to play against, but I feel that unpopularity can already be addressed to some degree by a quick player change in trading patterns.
Fisher No Chains3 votesThat’s exactly what I meant.
I don’t enjoy playing against LB either (at least during laning, and I main LB), but I know that it goes that way against assassin and that I’ll outscale them if I don’t feed them out of control.
Xonra14 votesThey dunk you, so you chase to fight, now you are in their minion wave, low, and their cds come up and they kill you.
I fail to see how this logic works unless you also have LB burst to follow up that is as easy to land and THEN the same ability to back off that she has.
Hibeki5 votesExactly, honestly all it would take for lb to finish you is a few autos with ignite and the minions will do the rest
Teridax683 votesUnless you are melee, or are only using autoattacks or single-target spells, you shouldn't have to take minion aggro to be able to affect your enemy mid laner. Most champions in mid lane are either ranged or have some form of poke, which itself is rarely exclusively single-target, so when LeBlanc goes in (and she does physically go in on you, even if it's for only a short time), you are nonetheless given some window to retaliate. It may not be LB levels of burst, which is why she feels so unfair in lane, but it can still be effective enough.
TeCoolMage1 votesThe 'backing off' part is covered by range since you don't need to 'go in' in the first place, but Leblanc's burst is so big and reliable that her laning phase is such a huge problem anyway
Spacesuit Spiff1 votesMakes sense on paper but they just sit back a little and the minions/jungler mean trying to force in that window isn't a great move.
Also, if you're a midlaner, you would've thrown all your stuff when she traded, so you're on cooldown too unless your cooldowns are A LOT lower than hers so you can walk up, throw stuff, and walk away before LB is online for round 2
Ugly Alien4 votes[{quoted}](name=Fisher No Chains,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=b7ElVtbx,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2018-04-24T10:31:37.589+0000)
If you zone yourself from the wave after she all-ins then you’re doing it COMPLETELY wrong.
You are supposed to abuse her cooldowns. Her W has a 14-10 cd, her E 14s, and her Q deals little to no damage early if you don’t proc it.
I’ve never seen someone in high elo get hit by a QW unless they are cocky as fuck. A lot of very high elo streamers NEVER use QW because their opponents are smart enough to be out of the W range (which, believe it or not, is smaller than 90% of every other midlaner spell’s range).
Tl;dr: don’t give her kills, farm safely and don’t expect to win early trades against her. She’s a lane bully and unless you’re playing a hard counter you can’t win 1v1 (and you SHOULDN’T). If LB is 0/0/0 at level 6, then you’re likely to win the game.
That's not the point. The point is she should not be doing that much damage at level 3 by pressing couple of buttons.
Aminumbra6 votes[{quoted}](name=Ugly Alien,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=b7ElVtbx,comment-id=00080001,timestamp=2018-04-24T19:47:40.762+0000)
That's not the point. The point is she should not be doing that much damage at level 3 by pressing couple of buttons.
The point is that a fucking lane bully should be able to bully you, if you are playing something weak against her, with the same gameplay as against an Azir.
May be midlaners tend to forgot what "Early game champ" are. May be they forgot how to itemize defensively. I don't know.
DFG is long gone, her ratios were nerfed, she has no more silence, her R CD was nerfed, she no longer has access to Morello to have infinite CDR and mana at cheap price ( although Luden is still pretty cool ), she now has a delay on her W, and her E breaking range was lowered.
MEANWHILE, Corrupting Potion was added to the game, Spellbook allow some midlaners to take a defensive summoner spell early on, mercuries/banshee/RoA/Abyssal, are all viable option, there is an easy access to defensive stuff, and you still complain.
OF COURSE she is hard to play against. Of course, if you are dumb enough to blind pick something that is hard countered, you will be fucked up. Above all if you play bad and stand in range of QW anytime she has the CD. But dude, half the midlaners have currently the capacity to waveclear so much that she can't really lane against her ( like Katarina - she will try to roam ), or simply enough range to be safe. The others are too tanky ( Hello, Vlad, Galio, Swain ... ). The others are asassins with a kill potential too.
So stop complaining, play champs according to your opponent's pick ( you are first pick ? Too bad, you can't blind pick TF ), buy useful stuff, outscale and ggwp.
Play some games vs Teemo, Quinn, Darius, Renek or Illaoi top as a melee. Play some games bots against Cait/Sona or MF/Zyra. The problem is not LeBlanc. The problem is that people are too bad to admit that they do not know how to lane against lane bullies.
Ugly Alien2 votesThere's a difference between bullying and killing with 2 buttons. No champ should be able to kill anyone with pressing couple of buttons pre level 6. LB is broken and guaranteed will be nerfed soon.
Purgë18 votesshe needs a fucking range nerf or a delay on her w return timer so she dosnt just jump in and get out with no punishment
Ryrynounet2 votesit must be sad to don't understand that if she Q'd you she will likely all in you with W and then abuse it against her :/ and then blame the champion :///
My Waifu Vanilla5 votesIt's almost like there is no GCD in this game so she can use them both at nearly the same time. I know weird right? It's not like she is going to throw the Q and pick her nose for 2 seconds and THEN W you. She is going to throw the Q and immediately W you so you can't react as easily to it.
Ryrynounet1 votesWhat if at first you try to avoid her on laning phase ? I mean with a mage if she's able to Q you with her 700 range she MUST be beside the cs literally asking to get some free spell, i'll remember that most of spells are 700+ range like for exemple orianna Q which is 825 ONLY if she want to Q you because you know what ? the W as a 600 range meaning she has to come again closer if she want to insta delete you. Either you don't abuse her tiny range or got the idea to pick a melee in this meta or you have a shitty placement I swear think of yourself once instead of the ennemy leblanc
Lady Hammerlock10 votesWut Wut, this LB is a helluva a lot better to play against honestly
you can actually dodge her W now, and it's rather easy too whether you're immobile or mobile, the speed drop is very impactful.
No more bullshit W>Q>R for half my health, they backloaded most of her damage to the second portions of her spells, a very welcome change
She can't wave clear that well anymore, my biggest issue with reworked LB was how an assassin of her caliber was allowed to possess incredible wave clear. This iteration of LB is vulnerable to getting shoved, and she can't clear wave>roam as easily as she used to.
I mean, if you're getting punished for 60%-70% of your health by level 3, which from the games I've played against her definitely doesn't happen without some draw back on her, then I'm pretty sure you're more at fault here.
My Waifu Vanilla3 votesHer waveclear isn't even that bad though. She maxes W like she did before her rework and she still clears waves at level 7. Clears most of the wave with just W after Luden's which isn't that hard to get when you have immense kill potential and roams. Yeah if you play something like Xerath into her you can shove her out but something like Ahri or Lux? No, your waveclears are equally as bad as hers meaning you can't actually push her in.
Mighty Mortein9 votesSame, she's my go to ban as a mid or when I'm ADC. I seriously feel like her E tether break range is stupid. Sure the cast range isn't crazy, but that "escape" circle is a little too much seeing as she's predominately a melee burst.
Vlada Cut1 votes[{quoted}](name=Mighty Mortein,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=b7ElVtbx,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-04-24T09:05:19.049+0000)
Same, she's my go to ban as a mid or when I'm ADC. I seriously feel like her E tether break range is stupid. Sure the cast range isn't crazy, but that "escape" circle is a little too much seeing as she's predominately a melee burst.
At least 
's Chains have a normal range.
Daddy Ants8 votesThey also forgot the reasons they reworked Rengar in the first place and guess what happened?
Reverted also.
Just perm ban her.
FrostlySpark1 votesRengar didn't really get reverted tho? They took the best parts of his rework and just reverted the Q
Killer of Night96 votesI guess she need zoe treatment. Split the Q or W damage over lv (halve base and the other part by lv) and reduce R base damage early game.
FilDaFunk4 votesShe's supposed to have strong laning trades - her tradeoff is that she cannot push for shit.
Brain Errör 4044 votesAh, the classic circle jerk.
People saying her W doesn't have delay... when in actuality, it does.
People say she's doing 60-70% of their health at level 3, when she doesn't do nearly that much damage early on in the game. Especially in one combo. Need I remind you pre-revert leblanc actually did more damage early in the game? It's just the timing for it was "longer" but not unavoidable since she landed E and you were pretty much almost death sentenced.
FlameadoDeKoorvo2 votes[{quoted}](name=Hyu Is My Daddy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=b7ElVtbx,comment-id=000e,timestamp=2018-04-24T14:34:41.495+0000)
Ah, the classic circle jerk.
People saying her W doesn't have delay... when in actuality, it does.
People say she's doing 60-70% of their health at level 3, when she doesn't do nearly that much damage early on in the game. Especially in one combo. Need I remind you pre-revert leblanc actually did more damage early in the game? It's just the timing for it was "longer" but not unavoidable since she landed E and you were pretty much almost death sentenced.
I pref to have the chance of juke her E (or scape from she) than just get zoned by her Q+W combo (combo HAHAHAH lel now that is a combo...).
In my opinion her burst potential should be linked to her E like Zoe
Brain Errör 4043 votesHard shove the wave and she'll be crying.
FlameadoDeKoorvo4 votes[{quoted}](name=Hyu Is My Daddy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=b7ElVtbx,comment-id=000e00000000,timestamp=2018-04-24T15:30:45.956+0000)
Hard shove the wave and she'll be crying.
So you expose your self to hard ganks unless you are playing zed or fizz
The Sword Saint3 votesSo you expose your self to hard ganks unless you are playing zed or fizz
You don't have to stand a the enemies tower with the wave pushed, and if you're trying to use auto attacks to push the wave and take so long that a jungler comes that's a mistake. You need a champ like morgana or vlad who can push the wave safely and quickly while being very difficult to actually gank (morgana w's the wave and walks away with a 2s root and anti cc shield, vlad heals up from his pushing and can pool away if ganked).
Anivia also does fine after 6 since she can ult the wave from a good distance andclear it out while having wall, stun, and egg to deter a dive from a gank.
Veigar's event horizon stops dashes so if he drops it around her she can't escape without flashing, and he can easily waveclear and farm up against leblanc while scaling far harder.
Nevermind champs like galio who seem tailor made to hard counter snowballing ap assassins - he'll push the wave from super far with has an anti magic shield passive and noone wants to be diving tanks in a gank (in a pinch he can ult to a teamate too).
Leblanc is gonna give certain champs mid a hard time yea, especially if you don't play around her at all, but everyone has counterpicks and rough lanes.
FlameadoDeKoorvo1 votes[{quoted}](name=A Sword Saint,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=b7ElVtbx,comment-id=000e0000000000000000,timestamp=2018-04-24T19:01:14.219+0000)
You don't have to stand a the enemies tower with the wave pushed, and if you're trying to use auto attacks to push the wave and take so long that a jungler comes that's a mistake. You need a champ like morgana or vlad who can push the wave safely and quickly while being very difficult to actually gank (morgana w's the wave and walks away with a 2s root and anti cc shield, vlad heals up from his pushing and can pool away if ganked).
Anivia also does fine after 6 since she can ult the wave from a good distance andclear it out while having wall, stun, and egg to deter a dive from a gank.
Veigar's event horizon stops dashes so if he drops it around her she can't escape without flashing, and he can easily waveclear and farm up against leblanc while scaling far harder.
Nevermind champs like galio who seem tailor made to hard counter snowballing ap assassins - he'll push the wave from super far with has an anti magic shield passive and noone wants to be diving tanks in a gank (in a pinch he can ult to a teamate too).
Leblanc is gonna give certain champs mid a hard time yea, especially if you don't play around her at all, but everyone has counterpicks and rough lanes.
So you admit, playing vs LB force you to pick a waveclear champs with a safe way to push and avoid ganks. I have to play extremely safe to do not be smashed by a champ with only 1 starting item. Sounds 100% correct yes.
I can admit it sounds like Talon, Zed, Diana, etc. but the differente is, except Zed all the other champs can be easily ganked so a jungler can focus his att to stop the masacre. No way to do that vs LB. I mean, even the annoying Fizz can be outplayed by juke his R, LB do not have to land his E to blow someone. She just need to repeat a extremely safe combo 2 times, and even if your team help you and you catch she, her pasive gives to she the chance of scape in a little RNG way.
Anyway I do not want to sound rude (sorry my english is so simple) you have exposed good arguments but for a draft match. Here is the blind pick and my options when i faced a bad matchup vs Lb are 0. Even if LB is countered by chance, she can roam extremely ez, all the champs to counter her are not "roamers" and have to play a "safe farm " style during 10 minutes.
Witch of Babylon4 votesShe’s an assassin. That’s what she does. Play and build around her until she becomes useless late game.
FlameadoDeKoorvo5 votes[{quoted}](name=Witch of Babylon,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=b7ElVtbx,comment-id=000f,timestamp=2018-04-24T15:01:12.138+0000)
She’s an assassin. That’s what she does. Play and build around her until she becomes useless late game.
So just dont farm because she can destroy near to all no assasins just with a doran ring??
Are you serious?
Witch of Babylon4 votesAre you serious with that exaggeration
FlameadoDeKoorvo9 votes[{quoted}](name=Witch of Babylon,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=b7ElVtbx,comment-id=000f00000000,timestamp=2018-04-24T15:31:20.093+0000)
Are you serious with that exaggeration
lvl 3
LB Q + aa + W with electrocute
50% hp say good bye (or even a little more)
when you try to trade she is out of your range
she has ignite so you know next combo is your death
in this moment you have to decide to: a) brb b) farm but maybe die c) lose tons of minions to try to farm safe under tower
She was reworked becasue she was toxic. She was defined as toxic champ for the balance team. What is the diff now?
Nothing
PD: sorry about my english
Somebody Love Me2 votesHaven't seen an LB with a Dorans ring in a while. We take Dark Seals out here
xelaker4 votesshe shouldn't have an amazeballs combo damage at lvl 3. I get that she falls off a bit later, but her early game damage is gross for someone so safe
Recon12123 votesSee I enjoy playing the old LB, but her early dmg is way too high. She shouldn't be able to fuck people so quick. I played a few games with her when she got reverted and I played like shit and still just 2 shot people that I shouldn't have been. Her dmg needs to be toned down, simple as that
BALDG1VEN BOOMER2 votesHey at least it’s not as bad as Rengar before he used to one shot me in 0.2 seconds now he one shots me in 0.1 seconds.
Xonra2 votesI wouldn't be surprised if the people that made this decision aren't even half the same people that decided to rework her in the first place. It's like "stealth bad" then they ignore that philosophy immediately and now stealth is frustrating again.
The "balance team" as we imagine them sadly isn't just one group of people doing all the balance. It is usually like rotating groups or individuals with some constant individuals and not even the same project leads on the same champ. I can guarantee the people that reworked LB aren't the same people that reverted said rework.
I don't know how Riot actually gets anything done.
JarodDempsey2 votesSo true, this is exactly why reverting her was a bad idea.
ankoanko192 votesIf LB Q+Ws you, she will lose a lot of her hp aswell if youre competent. Since they added a delay on her W + minion targetting you whenever you use point & click abilities, she will also lose a lot of her hp. 70% is an extreme over exaggeration but whatever.
mack91122 votesShe's so easy to play around come on ppl
T4underbolt2 votesOkay. Tell me how do I avoid getting hit by point and click q and then by a point and click dash which has enough range and air to hit me unless I'm xerath and I sit back all lane and farm with abilities on max range.
mack91122 votesOkay. Tell me how do I avoid getting hit by point and click q and then by a point and click dash which has enough range and air to hit me unless I'm xerath and I sit back all lane and farm with abilities on max range.
Well I mean if your any immobile mage you should be using your range to your advantage . What champions do you play ? Let's start with that . Xerath for instance can easily land his stun when lb goes to dash you , lux can root her , velkoz can knockup , ahri can charm , Ori should be able to zone her , I know shes hard to play against and is slippery but that's the point of an assassin. Any assassin when tuned correctly should Excel in a 1vs1 situation because that is what they are good at and unfortunately laning is 1vs1
TwinkiePro2 votesImagine if zed could use his shadow twice. That is how LB w feels like.
TeCoolMage1 votesDuring her W dash and for a split second after she's unable to W back immediately, it's hardly 'immediately'
I treat her the same as Talon and Diana's (who are 10x better in terms of hitting skillshots on compared to Fizz, Zed and Katarina, though these champs have their own weaknesses) in that to deal damage they have to dash into you so as long as you have a projectile skill shot you can get a free hit off every time.
But there are little to no win-win situations for mages vs LB. Stand outside of the minion wave and she QEs you, stand in it and she QWs you but her W cast animation lets you deal damage back, but she also pushes the minion wave when she's countered by being shoved in.
Her laning phase is hard but not on the level of Yasuo for mid laners or ranged top laners, there's worse
Then there's post laning phase Leblanc.. oh my god I hate it so much. She's not ult reliant, I can't keep her away from me with exhaust as she can back off wasting a basic ability while I've wasted a sum, her ult-less combo is enough to kill you a lot of the time, she can dive towers, nothing short of coordinating the entire team's warding and map positions, or building AP bruiser, can counter her if you're playing a squishy mage. It's not one sided though, just extremely annoying, since a Leblanc can still lose because she's a champion 100% focused on shutting down another
The main problems are:
º Kindred º1 votesQ, W, R combo very much counterplay LUL
