If Nasus gets reworked is he keeping his infinite Q stacking?

Pyrithegethon··3 votes·778 views

Is he on the radar for a rework anyways?

12 Comments

Teridax686 votes

Nasus is not currently in line for a rework, as Riot considers him to be a healthy overall example of what a juggernaut should do. I personally think he should get some light work done, as neither his laning pattern nor the juggernaut subclass as a whole are particularly healthy, but in spite of his current boring farming playstyle, I think his infinite Q stacking should stay.

Right now, the issue with it isn't so much that stacking infinite damage is bad in itself, but that Nasus mainly accrues power by completely isolating himself from the entire game, ignoring both his teammates and his laning opponent, which just leads to a lot of boring and frustrating interactions overall. If his method of stacking Q damage were changed, e.g. by having him get stacks by hitting enemy champions and large monsters, he could keep his infinite power fantasy in such a way that it could encourage him to become a much more active participant for his team. Tying his stacking to enemy champion presence could even flip his current interaction pattern completely, encouraging him to move with his opponent, gank other lanes and constantly seek to put himself at the front line, which would make for much more interaction overall, and allow him to have a slightly better early game as well.

Ravenous Howls1 votes

{quoted}

Nasus is not currently in line for a rework, as Riot considers him to be a healthy overall example of what a juggernaut should do. I personally think he should get some light work done, as neither his laning pattern nor the juggernaut subclass as a whole are particularly healthy, but in spite of his current boring farming playstyle, I think his infinite Q stacking should stay.

Right now, the issue with it isn't so much that stacking infinite damage is bad in itself, but that Nasus mainly accrues power by completely isolating himself from the entire game, ignoring both his teammates and his laning opponent, which just leads to a lot of boring and frustrating interactions overall. If his method of stacking Q damage were changed, e.g. by having him get stacks by hitting enemy champions and large monsters, he could keep his infinite power fantasy in such a way that it could encourage him to become a much more active participant for his team. Tying his stacking to enemy champion presence could even flip his current interaction pattern completely, encouraging him to move with his opponent, gank other lanes and constantly seek to put himself at the front line, which would make for much more interaction overall, and allow him to have a slightly better early game as well

they would need to add some significant defensive power into his kit or stats then to encourage this new way of stacking. As it stands right now he is balanced around having lower AD and defensive stats then all of those in his class b/c his power is heavily leveraged in his Q with his Passive. I don't think this solution is as simple as you make it sound.

Also Nasus is already balanced and doesn't need to be changed. We have enough hyper mobile and hyper aggressive champions in the game. Nasus doesn't need to be remade into another one.

Teridax681 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lazarus Blade,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=b6OA68wf,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2017-03-07T15:56:41.924+0000)

they would need to add some significant defensive power into his kit or stats then to encourage this new way of stacking. As it stands right now he is balanced around having lower AD and defensive stats then all of those in his class b/c his power is heavily leveraged in his Q with his Passive. I don't think this solution is as simple as you make it sound.

I mean, better health regen or life steal early on, or more raw health, could encourage him to play more aggressively without necessarily having to give him even more late-game power. If he ends up having too unstable a power curve, there are also a lot of ways he could be made more consistent: allowing him to still stack on some minions, e.g. cannon minions or the like, could allow him to fall back to farming if he's too behind, and making the base bonus Q damage deal max health damage means he could always deal a good baseline amount of damage no matter far behind he is.

[{quoted}](name=Lazarus Blade,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=b6OA68wf,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2017-03-07T15:56:41.924+0000)

Also Nasus is already balanced and doesn't need to be changed. We have enough hyper mobile and hyper aggressive champions in the game. Nasus doesn't need to be remade into another one.

At what point did anyone ever mention giving Nasus, a juggernaut, mobility, and how does allowing him to stack off of enemy champions count as remaking him entirely? It sounds a lot like you just don't want him to change at all, when it's clear that he does need at least a slightly more interactive laning phase.

Ravenous Howls1 votes

{quoted}

I mean, better health regen or life steal early on, or more raw health, could encourage him to play more aggressively without necessarily having to give him even more late-game power. If he ends up having too unstable a power curve, there are also a lot of ways he could be made more consistent: allowing him to still stack on some minions, e.g. cannon minions or the like, could allow him to fall back to farming if he's too behind, and making the base bonus Q damage deal max health damage means he could always deal a good baseline amount of damage no matter far behind he is.

At what point did anyone ever mention giving Nasus, a juggernaut, mobility, and how does allowing him to stack off of enemy champions count as remaking him entirely? It sounds a lot like you just don't want him to change at all, when it's clear that he does need at least a slightly more interactive laning phase

Nasus is a juggernaut but some of them have some mobility. Like Garen, Trundle or Yorick. They all have built in mobility. Also usually when riot changes a champion drastically they usually get mobility plopped in there. So it is less about your suggestion and more about Riot's history with champion changes. Hello Gallio!

He is suppose to be a slow building mountain of death and destruction. By remaking him into a more aggressive or interactive champion you essentially remove the patience aspect and he becomes like 90% of the champion roster. It is certainly not clear that he needs anything. He is currently balanced and viable at all elo's. He has clear points of power and counter play. Go check OPGG. He has a pick rate of just over 4% and a 51% win rate. That's the definition of balanced and a champion working as intended.

You can't possibly think that by making his stacks rely on trading with the enemy champion would not make him completely useless. At that point any ranged champion could shut him down much harder than they can now and he would be completely trash. Even if he could stack cannon minions that's what 1 for every 3 waves? You could take any zone control or mobile ADC or Mage Top and render him useless. He would never be able to stack vs them.

You are right I don't want him to change b/c he doesn't need to change. Nasus fits a small niche in the champion roster where his success is not determined on out trading his enemy early but being patient and slowly becoming a late game terror that excels at objective control and carry lock down. I'm sorry but this idea is not well thought out and you have essentially nerfed him to an unplayable tier b/c you don't like the way he plays.

Teridax681 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lazarus Blade,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=b6OA68wf,comment-id=0002000000000000,timestamp=2017-03-08T11:32:48.156+0000)

Also usually when riot changes a champion drastically they usually get mobility plopped in there. So it is less about your suggestion and more about Riot's history with champion changes. Hello Gallio!

That's fair, and believe me, I'm personally not at all a fan of that trend. Ideally, though, Nasus should be able to receive the changes he needs without getting saddled with tools that aren't appropriate to him, particularly since the ones mentioned here aren't so much about fundamentally reworking him as they are about improving his current playstyle.

[{quoted}](name=Lazarus Blade,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=b6OA68wf,comment-id=0002000000000000,timestamp=2017-03-08T11:32:48.156+0000)

He is suppose to be a slow building mountain of death and destruction. By remaking him into a more aggressive or interactive champion you essentially remove the patience aspect and he becomes like 90% of the champion roster.

I don't think making him stack off of champions would really remove the patience component to his playstyle, but I agree that isn't as much of a rah-rah all-in fighter as most other juggernauts. I think the ideal compromise should be to have a change like this make him value trading a lot more, and force him to better consider which trades are worth taking, instead of having him completely ignore his laner during the early game.

[{quoted}](name=Lazarus Blade,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=b6OA68wf,comment-id=0002000000000000,timestamp=2017-03-08T11:32:48.156+0000)

It is certainly not clear that he needs anything. He is currently balanced and viable at all elo's. He has clear points of power and counter play. Go check OPGG. He has a pick rate of just over 4% and a 51% win rate. That's the definition of balanced and a champion working as intended.

"Balanced" and "healthy" are not the same thing, and while he does have clear points of power, his interaction potential is sometimes lacking, especially in the laning phase. Again, a commonly mentioned issue with Nasus is that he spends his early game hard-farming and forcing himself to ignore both his lane opponent and his team, a strategy that is not only boring for everyone involved, but also conducive to bad habits on a larger scale, since every player should be doing the exact opposite.

[{quoted}](name=Lazarus Blade,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=b6OA68wf,comment-id=0002000000000000,timestamp=2017-03-08T11:32:48.156+0000)

You can't possibly think that by making his stacks rely on trading with the enemy champion would not make him completely useless. At that point any ranged champion could shut him down much harder than they can now and he would be completely trash. Even if he could stack cannon minions that's what 1 for every 3 waves? You could take any zone control or mobile ADC or Mage Top and render him useless. He would never be able to stack vs them.

So what you're saying is that Nasus can't lane properly against ranged champions? If true, shouldn't that be something to fix as well?

[{quoted}](name=Lazarus Blade,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=b6OA68wf,comment-id=0002000000000000,timestamp=2017-03-08T11:32:48.156+0000)

You are right I don't want him to change b/c he doesn't need to change. Nasus fits a small niche in the champion roster where his success is not determined on out trading his enemy early but being patient and slowly becoming a late game terror that excels at objective control and carry lock down. I'm sorry but this idea is not well thought out and you have essentially nerfed him to an unplayable tier b/c you don't like the way he plays.

Whoa there, I didn't even give specifics and now you're accusing me of nerfing him. I agree that Nasus's fantasy as a patient, late-game infinite stacking champion is one worth keeping, but I'm not proposing to remove that; rather, I think Nasus currently being pushed to play FarmVille while everyone else is playing League of Legends isn't conducive to the most interesting gameplay for anyone. It's clear he does need to change at least a little bit, and it sounds like you're a tad too attached to wanting him to remain as boring and uninteractive as he currently is during the laning phase.

Ravenous Howls1 votes

{quoted}

That's fair, and believe me, I'm personally not at all a fan of that trend. Ideally, though, Nasus should be able to receive the changes he needs without getting saddled with tools that aren't appropriate to him, particularly since the ones mentioned here aren't so much about fundamentally reworking him as they are about improving his current playstyle.

Riot's decison making is extemely hit or miss when they redo a champion so I remain dubious on whether or not they can initiate changes without ruining him.

I don't think making him stack off of champions would really remove the patience component to his playstyle, but I agree that isn't as much of a rah-rah all-in fighter as most other juggernauts. I think the ideal compromise should be to have a change like this make him value trading a lot more, and force him to better consider which trades are worth taking, instead of having him completely ignore his laner during the early game.

There is no way to have an infinate stacking melee champion want to trade more, who doesn't have a built in defense system like Sion or is ranged like Viegar. Or if it's Kindred and you get a massive benefit for successful hunts. Again he would need to be much more durable early to encourage him to risk the early harassment to trade constantly or be given a solid amount of defensive steroids outside of his ult.

"Balanced" and "healthy" are not the same thing, and while he does have clear points of power, his interaction potential is sometimes lacking, especially in the laning phase. Again, a commonly mentioned issue with Nasus is that he spends his early game hard-farming and forcing himself to ignore both his lane opponent and his team, a strategy that is not only boring for everyone involved, but also conducive to bad habits on a larger scale, since every player should be doing the exact opposite.

How does balanced and healthy not coincide? He is one of the only healthy and balanced champions in the game. Again clear points of counter play and power are indicative of this point. I think bad Nasus players are like any bad player on any X champion. He is defined as a split pusher and as such his power is somewhat relegated more on a lane then in team fights. Yorick a current rework also thrives in this way. Should he be remade b/c he is mostly splitting and ignoring team fights? Unless he has maiden available his team fight is complete garbage.

So what you're saying is that Nasus can't lane properly against ranged champions? If true, shouldn't that be something to fix as well?

Nasus can lane fine vs ranged enemies top as he is. Your change of having him gain stack for attacking enemy champion would see him crushed and irrelevant in any match up vs a ranged opponent. If you want me or other to see your point differently then give some context on what you are going to give him to compensate him to put himself in so much harm.

Whoa there, I didn't even give specifics and now you're accusing me of nerfing him. I agree that Nasus's fantasy as a patient, late-game infinite stacking champion is one worth keeping, but I'm not proposing to remove that; rather, I think Nasus currently being pushed to play FarmVille while everyone else is playing League of Legends isn't conducive to the most interesting gameplay for anyone. It's clear he does need to change at least a little bit, and it sounds like you're a tad too attached to wanting him to remain as boring and uninteractive as he currently is during the laning phase.

B/c your idea is a nerf that offered nothing to compensate this new play style. ATM he is pretty weak in his first 4-6 levels of play. He doesn't have a self click shield like Garen , a giant aoe % health heal like Darius or free damage from self created minions like Illaoi and Yorick. You say you want to keep his infinite stacking but how? He can not afford to trade as he is now without at least 1 full defensive item. This change is all you offered in regards to a change. Part of his punishment to a lane opponent is if they leave and unsuccessfully gank or play for an objective he free farms and becomes much stronger. He doesn't have the mobility or build enough of it to roam all game just to match his lane opponents. How would he follow Quinn, Yasuo, Shen, Teemo, Kennan, Jayce? They all have more mobility, range and can easily reach your allies before you can catch up. I am sorry but it is a terrible idea to put his stacking mechanic on infinite CD if your lane opponent is gone.

I like the champion yes and I am not staunchly against change but I am against it when it is a superfluous suggestion without complete formulation. Again there is nothing "Clear" in indication or data that he needs a change besides your opinion. Riot believes he is balanced as does most of the community who is Gold and higher. I think it's less that I want him to remain boring and uninteractive as you say but more that you just can't stand to have a champion in the game that doesn't play like 90% of the rest of the roster.

Until you can give me some real data about how he's unhealthy or a concrete, well fleshed out description of a change that doesn't make him trash tier then there isn't anything more to discuss. Nasus is operating under the intention of his design. To farm, scale, split push and destroy objectives.

Teridax681 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lazarus Blade,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=b6OA68wf,comment-id=000200000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-03-08T20:23:39.217+0000)

There is no way to have an infinate stacking melee champion want to trade more, who doesn't have a built in defense system like Sion or is ranged like Viegar.

Nasus has inbuilt lifesteal, on top of the strongest attack speed slow in the game. Significantly increasing his sustain when trading early with enemy champions could encourage him to interact with them more and get rewarded for it.

[{quoted}](name=Lazarus Blade,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=b6OA68wf,comment-id=000200000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-03-08T20:23:39.217+0000)

How does balanced and healthy not coincide?

There are many examples of this even now. Kalista, for example, is balanced but not healthy, as she does so many things that her power has been diluted across all of them. When Kassadin received massive damage nerfs prior to his mini-rework, he was balanced around his previous unhealthy state. Rek'Sai was unwittingly balanced around being a tank when she was too strong as a diver. The list goes on.

[{quoted}](name=Lazarus Blade,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=b6OA68wf,comment-id=000200000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-03-08T20:23:39.217+0000)

He is one of the only healthy and balanced champions in the game.

Evidence suggests that he isn't entirely as healthy as he could be. Again, the rationale behind making him stack against enemy champions in the first place is because his current stacking fantasy encourages him to a) not interact with the enemy laner, which isn't fun, and b) ignore his team, which is frustrating, and redirecting his attention towards the enemy team, rather than just hard-farming all the time, would help address those issues.

[{quoted}](name=Lazarus Blade,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=b6OA68wf,comment-id=000200000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-03-08T20:23:39.217+0000)

Nasus can lane fine vs ranged enemies top as he is. Your change of having him gain stack for attacking enemy champion would see him crushed and irrelevant in any match up vs a ranged opponent.

So what is the truth? Are you saying that ignoring the enemy laner and lifestealing through all their harass constitutes a healthy laning scenario?

[{quoted}](name=Lazarus Blade,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=b6OA68wf,comment-id=000200000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-03-08T20:23:39.217+0000)

B/c your idea is a nerf that offered nothing to compensate this new play style. ATM he is pretty weak in his first 4-6 levels of play.

As I mentioned before, there are many ways to compensate for this, none of which need to be particularly drastic, and I gave no specifics as to how many stacks he'd gain from enemy champions either, so you assuming it's a nerf that will ruin him forever is entirely on you. Again, as I said in several posts higher up in this exchange, if his issue is with not being durable enough to trade early on, he could receive buffs to his early health and resists; if he needs some amount of consistent Q damage, he could be allowed to stack against specific minions, or against all minions and be adjusted from there, or even have max health damage; if he specifically needs to better recover from trades, then increasing his life steal against enemy champions when trading with them early on could also help him.

[{quoted}](name=Lazarus Blade,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=b6OA68wf,comment-id=000200000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-03-08T20:23:39.217+0000)

Again there is nothing "Clear" in indication or data that he needs a change besides your opinion. Riot believes he is balanced as does most of the community who is Gold and higher.

This is patently false, as many players have complained over the years that Nasus's stacking is uninteractive, and Riot have mentioned the same. Subtly trying to dismiss players by implying their opinion doesn't matter below a certain competitive tier does not make your assertion any more convincing.

[{quoted}](name=Lazarus Blade,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=b6OA68wf,comment-id=000200000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-03-08T20:23:39.217+0000)

I think it's less that I want him to remain boring and uninteractive as you say but more that you just can't stand to have a champion in the game that doesn't play like 90% of the rest of the roster.

So you're saying that the only thing preventing Nasus from being completely generic is that he completely refuses to interact with other players for a large part of the game? If that were truly the case, then he would be in dire need of a complete overhaul, not just the minor tweak I'm suggesting.

It's also worth discussing what you truly mean by "like 90% of the rest of the roster": if by that you mean giving a champion something like a whole bunch of dashes and knockups (coughGaliocough), thereby giving them mechanics seen many times before already, then yeah, I'd totally oppose that, because every champion should be distinct in their contributions and fantasy, but if by that you mean making a champion interact with the enemy team and their own, then I think that is something exactly 100% of the roster should follow, because player interaction is the core of healthy gameplay in League.

[{quoted}](name=Lazarus Blade,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=b6OA68wf,comment-id=000200000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-03-08T20:23:39.217+0000)

Until you can give me some real data about how he's unhealthy or a concrete, well fleshed out description of a change that doesn't make him trash tier then there isn't anything more to discuss. Nasus is operating under the intention of his design. To farm, scale, split push and destroy objectives.

That's a particularly disingenuous ultimatum, because your phrasing gives you full license to dismiss any "real data" or description I present to you at your leisure. Moreover, no matter how hard you pretend, you are not the only person here who gets a say on what Nasus should be, and the popularity of my suggestion on this thread suggests there are several more players who agree with what I'm saying. So far, your main opposition to my idea has been you catastrophizing the mere idea of allowing Nasus to benefit from interacting with enemy champions, by automatically presuming any change of that type will irreversibly destroy him. You have provided no justification for this other than the assumption that somehow this would equate to a significant net decrease in power, while outright ignoring all the possibilities I have suggested to let him retain a level of consistency, and allow him to better survive trades early on. It is utterly hypocritical of you to place the burden of proof on me to somehow conjure up statistical data in favor of my suggestion when none of your own statements are backed up by evidence or sound reasoning. It is clear you are completely opposed to change of any kind on Nasus, and while this argument may never convince you or generate constructive discussion from you, perhaps it might still interest players looking for an opportunity to make Nasus healthier and more fun overall.

Ravenous Howls1 votes

{quoted}

Nasus has inbuilt lifesteal, on top of the strongest attack speed slow in the game. Significantly increasing his sustain when trading early with enemy champions could encourage him to interact with them more and get rewarded for it.

In built Life steal that works with only one ability and doesn't see any return until around 100 stacks... How is this a defensive steroid to encourage early trading? Again he would need a massive AD steroid early or defensive steroid to make his life steal more advantageous early game.

There are many examples of this even now. Kalista, for example, is balanced but not healthy, as she does so many things that her power has been diluted across all of them. When Kassadin received massive damage nerfs prior to his mini-rework, he was balanced around his previous unhealthy state. Rek'Sai was unwittingly balanced around being a tank when she was too strong as a diver. The list goes on.

His whole kit is balances around his Q. that is his main source of damage. Wither is single Target and Spirit Fire reduces Flat armor and his ult just empowers him to use more Q strikes to fight. His whole kit is buitl around his Q which is balanced.

Kassadin was a problem b/c of his silence, AOE Slow and hyper mobility all at once. His power was all over the place. Rek Sai again had power all over the place. Damage, resource less, mobility, CC. Kalista I can't really speak to b/c I took a break around the time she was released and nerfed.

Evidence suggests that he isn't entirely as healthy as he could be. Again, the rationale behind making him stack against enemy champions in the first place is because his current stacking fantasy encourages him to a) not interact with the enemy laner, which isn't fun, and b) ignore his team, which is frustrating, and redirecting his attention towards the enemy team, rather than just hard-farming all the time, would help address those issues.

If Player ignores his team all game to stack then he's a bad Nasus. It's like player who dives constantly to get hunts on Kindred. They over value the stack and make a needless risk at the expense of their team. I stated this before. People put too much emphases on stacking. Why does he have to be interactive? Where exactly is it stated he has to be X amount of interactive by X time? I personally build Nasus to team fight but he was designed, again, as a split pusher. Split pusher by definition stay in a solo lane most of the game. It's kind of their designed purpose. You continually ignore this point.

So what is the truth? Are you saying that ignoring the enemy laner and lifestealing through all their harass constitutes a healthy laning scenario?

It is because that was the intended pattern of his play style. To be patient and slowly wear down his opponent. Vlad, Mundo and Garen all can passively nullify damage through sustain. My intention is not to pick any champion to make the lane fun for my opponent it is because I enjoy the champion. There are plenty of champions I do not enjoy laning against but I don't sit on the boards asking for changes to them.

As I mentioned before, there are many ways to compensate for this, none of which need to be particularly drastic, and I gave no specifics as to how many stacks he'd gain from enemy champions either, so you assuming it's a nerf that will ruin him forever is entirely on you. Again, as I said in several posts higher up in this exchange, if his issue is with not being durable enough to trade early on, he could receive buffs to his early health and resists; if he needs some amount of consistent Q damage, he could be allowed to stack against specific minions, or against all minions and be adjusted from there, or even have max health damage; if he specifically needs to better recover from trades, then increasing his life steal against enemy champions when trading with them early on could also help him.

You should have mentioned all this before then. It doesn't help to be vague when suggesting a change.

This is patently false, as many players have complained over the years that Nasus's stacking is uninteractive, and Riot have mentioned the same. Subtly trying to dismiss players by implying their opinion doesn't matter below a certain competitive tier does not make your assertion any more convincing.

Many players? I think mostly bronze players are those new to the game. Again most of the community doesn't believe Nasus is a problem or needs a change. Most think he's balanced. I am not subtly saying anything. I resolutely stated it is a low elo mentality and weak minded mentality that one complains about a champion and demands changes/nerfs because it is easier to ask for a hand out then put in the work to learn how to play better.

So you're saying that the only thing preventing Nasus from being completely generic is that he completely refuses to interact with other players for a large part of the game? If that were truly the case, then he would be in dire need of a complete overhaul, not just the minor tweak I'm suggesting.

He's not generic at all. He is one of the few Hyper Carry Bruiser Melee's in the game. He get's stronger with ever kill. He absorbs the power of his fallen prey and then unleashes it upon his enemies. I think that is pretty unique. But by your extension you could say every champion is generic. ADC just poke all game until their support lands some spiffy CC then they exhaust and get the kill. Or mages just poke and spam magic aoe abilities. Mobile fighters like Fiora and Renekton just dash around and chunk you with aoe or true damage. That's all generic too if you want to get literal about it. Explain why does Nasus have to interact? why does he have to be something similar to the rest of the roster? Why can't his focus be on patience and not fighting early? you have never stated why he has to be more interactive. Stating your opinion that it's not fun for you is hardly evidence.

It's also worth discussing what you truly mean by "like 90% of the rest of the roster": if by that you mean giving a champion something like a whole bunch of dashes and knockups (coughGaliocough), thereby giving them mechanics seen many times before already, then yeah, I'd totally oppose that, because every champion should be distinct in their contributions and fantasy, but if by that you mean making a champion interact with the enemy team and their own, then I think that is something exactly 100% of the roster should follow, because player interaction is the core of healthy gameplay in League.

This is an overgeneralized opinion from you and is not in anyway fact. Interaction is a broad term and can mean different things. If Nasus takes 2 towers solo then he's interacting. He's created map pressure and given his team global gold. If he solo's a dragon again he's creating pressure and giving his team buffs. It's a subjective point you are playing upon. It's entirely circumstantial on the player as well. If the Nasus has 500 stacks but died 8 times refuses to group yeah he's being a potato and not interacting. But if he's forcing the enemy top and doesn't die and you are winning team fights then he is interacting. It's just a different approach to the 5 v 5 fights.

That's a particularly disingenuous ultimatum, because your phrasing gives you full license to dismiss any "real data" or description I present to you at your leisure. Moreover, no matter how hard you pretend, you are not the only person here who gets a say on what Nasus should be, and the popularity of my suggestion on this thread suggests there are several more players who agree with what I'm saying. So far, your main opposition to my idea has been you catastrophizing the mere idea of allowing Nasus to benefit from interacting with enemy champions, by automatically presuming any change of that type will irreversibly destroy him. You have provided no justification for this other than the assumption that somehow this would equate to a significant net decrease in power, while outright ignoring all the possibilities I have suggested to let him retain a level of consistency, and allow him to better survive trades early on. It is utterly hypocritical of you to place the burden of proof on me to somehow conjure up statistical data in favor of my suggestion when none of your own statements are backed up by evidence or sound reasoning. It is clear you are completely opposed to change of any kind on Nasus, and while this argument may never convince you or generate constructive discussion from you, perhaps it might still interest players looking for an opportunity to make Nasus healthier and more fun overall.

It's not really an ultimatum as much as it is put up or shut up. Sorry if that wasn't the most courteous way of putting it but there it is. You need facts to prove your point. I know I am not the only one who gets a say and I never once said I was the authority. I have just disagreed with you and your opinion. I gave you OPGG as a source and stated his current pick rate and win rate. If a champion has over a 20% pick rate with a 53-60% win rate then guess what? They are not balanced or healthy for the game because it means anyone regardless of skill level can pick them up and win consistently. Give me concrete statistics to back up your purported claim that he's unhealthy and not balanced outside of the bronze message boards on here crying for nerfs or your own opinion and I will gladly rescind my stance. Also your +6 popularity is nothing to go one about. You have 5 people who liked your original statement hardly a trove of support and there is nothing remotely hypocritical in my statement. I gave you a site and the numbers. He is neither out of line or abused. 4% of players play him daily and he has a 51% win rate. Where is the hypocrisy?Again I am opposed to change when it is clearly not well thought out.

Teridax681 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lazarus Blade,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=b6OA68wf,comment-id=00020000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-03-09T12:21:41.264+0000)

In built Life steal that works with only one ability and doesn't see any return until around 100 stacks... How is this a defensive steroid to encourage early trading?

Modifying the life steal value against champions could achieve that, particularly since that is its original purpose.

[{quoted}](name=Lazarus Blade,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=b6OA68wf,comment-id=00020000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-03-09T12:21:41.264+0000)

His whole kit is balances around his Q. that is his main source of damage.

That is not what balance is, and treating every other champion like a special case makes no sense. If Nasus has reliability moved away from his Q by making it more conditional on enemy champions, then he could afford to have more power or reliability through other means.

[{quoted}](name=Lazarus Blade,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=b6OA68wf,comment-id=00020000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-03-09T12:21:41.264+0000)

If Player ignores his team all game to stack then he's a bad Nasus.

Perhaps, but the incentive to stack all game and ignore everyone else comes directly from Nasus's farming paradigm. Even Veigar, who is also among the game's most famous infinite stacking champions, gets to work with his team, in large part because he stacks off of enemy champions.

[{quoted}](name=Lazarus Blade,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=b6OA68wf,comment-id=00020000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-03-09T12:21:41.264+0000)

Why does he have to be interactive?

"Why does a champion have to be healthy?"

[{quoted}](name=Lazarus Blade,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=b6OA68wf,comment-id=00020000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-03-09T12:21:41.264+0000)

Split pusher by definition stay in a solo lane most of the game. It's kind of their designed purpose. You continually ignore this point.

Except splitpushers have been redesigned to be more interactive, with Yorick as a chief example of this. You continually ignore this point.

[{quoted}](name=Lazarus Blade,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=b6OA68wf,comment-id=00020000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-03-09T12:21:41.264+0000)

There are plenty of champions I do not enjoy laning against but I don't sit on the boards asking for changes to them.

Perhaps you should, because if they're truly not fun to play against, then that needs to be amended. It doesn't matter how you try to rationalize Nasus's laning phase, it's just not that interesting for anyone involved.

[{quoted}](name=Lazarus Blade,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=b6OA68wf,comment-id=00020000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-03-09T12:21:41.264+0000)

You should have mentioned all this before then. It doesn't help to be vague when suggesting a change.

I did.

[{quoted}](name=Lazarus Blade,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=b6OA68wf,comment-id=00020000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-03-09T12:21:41.264+0000)

Many players? I think mostly bronze players are those new to the game. I resolutely stated it is a low elo mentality and weak minded mentality that one complains about a champion and demands changes/nerfs because it is easier to ask for a hand out then put in the work to learn how to play better.

This is a stupid and insulting argument, yet again because its entire premise boils down to calling those who challenge your opinion unskilled, weak-minded and entitled. It is this kind of mentality that makes you come across as less credible to all, no matter the elo. That you arbitrarily set your personal cutoff point at Gold just to include yourself, when the typical threshold is Plat, also comes across as hypocritical.

[{quoted}](name=Lazarus Blade,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=b6OA68wf,comment-id=00020000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-03-09T12:21:41.264+0000)

He's not generic at all.

I didn't say that at all, in fact I think he's quite original, but you implying that switching his stacking from minions to champions would make him generic suggests that you might think he is, or at least that you think he's original for all the wrong reasons.

[{quoted}](name=Lazarus Blade,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=b6OA68wf,comment-id=00020000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-03-09T12:21:41.264+0000)

Explain why does Nasus have to interact? why does he have to be something similar to the rest of the roster? Why can't his focus be on patience and not fighting early? you have never stated why he has to be more interactive. Stating your opinion that it's not fun for you is hardly evidence.

I have stated multiple times why I think he needs to be more interactive (his laning phase often ends up boring everyone and he tends to frustrate his teammates if he hard-farms for too long), even though I think that should have been self-evident. Being patient is fine, being uninteractive is not, and the very fact that you're trying to present lack of interactivity as a good thing is laughable. Similarly, trying to shift the goalposts and redefine interactivity as just doing anything at all is similarly ridiculous.

[{quoted}](name=Lazarus Blade,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=b6OA68wf,comment-id=00020000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-03-09T12:21:41.264+0000)

I gave you OPGG as a source and stated his current pick rate and win rate.

Both of which are completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand when the subject is the champion's gameplay health, which is not a matter of win rates or even pick rates. That you fail to recognize this, and demand statistical "proof" that a champion is boring to play against, demonstrates an eminent lack of understanding of what constitutes evidence, or even what kind of discussion you're engaging in. That you do all this while throwing out hyperbole and opinions completely unsubstantiated by any real reasoning also smacks of hypocrisy. That you yet again think this discussion starts and stops at your personal approval shows you do not quite understand how collaborative feedback works, particularly since you readily dismiss the voice of so many others, and genuinely try to pretend like your own opinion is worth more than that of six others. You have shown several times across this discussion that you do not only fail to pay attention to the arguments I make in favor of my suggestion, but actively try to pretend they don't exist. I invite you to justify why you think it's so important for Nasus to never stack his Q on champions.

Martensitic1 votes

Nasus isn't on the line for a rework.

The next big one is coming for tanks, not for bruisers.

Sun Wu Ryuumoku1 votes

He has already had a light rework

Titanium701 votes

In the current iteration? I dont think so. (IF he ever get's a larger rework which is not announced or rumored about yet)

Nasus way of stacking isnt exactly a good example of healthy game design. I guess he will still have a way to deal massives amounts of DMG with Q but without linking it directly to CS.

(Just a random example with 30 seconds of thought put into: By stacking the DMG of multiple Qs = Overkill Q a minion, Fill your stack resource, Q a champion deal Q dmg + bonus DMG based on how much DMG you 'saved up' when Qing minions. That way you'd still be able to blow people out of existance WHILE encouraging Lane-interaction. ^^)

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