Gameplay Folks:
https://i.gyazo.com/7bd671f1663ca2c12b906bdebb636d85.png
is this balanced?
answer: https://i.gyazo.com/c91c19bf5df1aba4c3646e62702dbe4e.png
notice how without knowing that it belonged to lulu, folks thought immediatly that it wasn't balanced on the condition that those stats didn't belong to bronze
funny experiment
nm10105 votesI'm curious who's stats these are, a wild guess at blitzcrank in bronze?
Ahristocats8 votesNice try but nay
Lulu in diamond+
Anhartamin4 votes[deleted]
Maximum Morde2 votes{quoted} Zed is still banned in Korean high elo
Because his kit by design is obnoxious as hell, and he's viable. He only goes unbanned when he isn't viable.
Anhartamin1 votes[deleted]
Lauchmelder1 votesWhy though? Zed has an obnoxious kit, but he's literally one of the only assassins in this game that feel fair to play against.
ModThe Djinn4 votes[{quoted}](name=Dr Sona x Rubick,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=awRpB7Gg,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-03-29T13:29:53.961+0000)https://i.gyazo.com/7bd671f1663ca2c12b906bdebb636d85.png
I hate to say it, but we need more data. What I see here is a popular champion considered a hotly contested ban, but whose actual influence on games isn't as high as one might think given the ban rate.
There could be any number of reasons why this is the case and, without looking closer, it's going to be hard to say for certain. I definitely wouldn't be making any balance decisions off this limited information.
Ahristocats2 votes[{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=awRpB7Gg,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2017-03-29T13:58:05.580+0000)
but whose actual influence on games isn't as high as one might think given the ban rate.
51.2% win rate is a great influence actually Lulu had 53% win rate before being banned in 1 game out of 2, the ban rate artificially dropped the win rate while still being above 51%
ModThe Djinn2 votes[{quoted}](name=Dr Sona x Rubick,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=awRpB7Gg,comment-id=00090000,timestamp=2017-03-29T14:02:18.352+0000)
51.2% win rate isn't a high influence? what are you smoking? Lulu had 53% win rate before being banned in 1 game out of 2, the ban rate artificially dropped the win rate while still being above 51%
The highest winrates in Plat+ right now are, for the various roles:
Pantheon (Top): 53.6% Aurelion Sol (Jungle): 58% (probable outlier with few games played) Anivia (Mid): 54.3% Twitch (Marksman): 54.3% Blitzcrank (Support): 53.2%
Assuming we're talking about Lulu here (51.2% win rate is approximately hers), she's #6 out of supports played, and within 0.6% of Sona, Janna, Soraka (all three higher than Lulu), Fiddlesticks, Trungle, Braum, Zilean, and Brand. That doesn't seem like a huge spread.
In short, 51.2% isn't ridiculous in ANY position.
I'm not saying she's BALANCED, but I am saying her winrate is within acceptable bounds. Hence the need for more information. :)
Best princess EU4 votesthe difference is that thy don't have a massive pick rate which is why 51.5% win rate ends up having a massive impact unlike everything you listed
why are you trying to defend something that is logically broken?
ModThe Djinn1 votes[{quoted}](name=Sanji fanboy,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=awRpB7Gg,comment-id=0009000000000001,timestamp=2017-03-29T14:47:22.573+0000)the difference is that thy don't have a massive pick rate which is why 51.5% win rate ends up having a massive impact unlike everything you listed
why are you trying to defend something that is logically broken?
Lucian has a 43.92% play rate and a 52.11% win rate. Caitlyn has a 23.66% play rate and a 51% win rate. Ahri is 20.9% and 53.86%.
Again, it MAY be that these champions are all overpowered. All I'm saying is that judging something like that purely by Ban/Play/Win rates is a poor way to judge actual balance. Especially when assassins are currently popular -- Lulu is kind of designed to excel at preventing picks, and that's something that's really useful right now. Is the problem with Lulu, or with the predominance of assassins and the lack of other strong counter-picks in the support roster? Is it BOTH? Is it NEITHER?
Numbers HELP, but they don't tell the full story. Caitlyn, for example, is probably fine -- she just tends to pop up when other options have been weakened, because range is a GREAT strength to have. She vanishes again as soon as carries with more dueling power or utility are in vogue, and inevitably surfaces again further down the line. Her power and win rate fluctuate HEAVILY based on the metagame around her, and I think Lulu may well be in the same situation to some extent (although her kit is pretty strong -- I'm just not sure it's OP).
The Last Ballad1 votesLogically broken? Try "your logic is broken". You are using the fact that Lulu has a higher play rate as a reason she is strong, ignoring the fact that with a higher sample size, you get a more accurate statistic. Which means that Lulu actually has a better measure of her strength than the other supports, who will have a higher % that are the hardcore mains, vs Lulu who is FOTM right now.
And logically, seeing as there were no recent buffs to Lulu, her newfound playrate would seem to be more due to the fact that those she counters were buffed and have started being more prevalent, which increases the amount of games where she can be useful/strong.
Maximum Morde1 votesBecause people only let her through when they are confident they are can play against her.
ModThe Djinn3 votes[{quoted}](name=Maximum Morde,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=awRpB7Gg,comment-id=00090001,timestamp=2017-03-29T14:17:06.060+0000)
Because people only let her through when they are confident they are can play against her.
And that's a possibility, yes. But it's also possible that she's only strong due to a few meta picks that no one has figured out how to adapt around her, or that she's overbanned because people overreacted and now it's just habit, or...the list goes on.
This is why Riot doesn't use just play rate, win rate, and ban rate for balancing purposes. That's really all I'm saying -- that this data alone is insufficient.
Bronze II Yasuo 4 votesYou know people are just tired of seeing your daily Lulu give me free upvotes pls threads.
On a side note Lulu is in fact balanced like many people have said she never received any major buffs in the longest while so if she was such a problem why wasn't it addressed sooner rather than now? Oh wait I know, FoTM LCS bandwagon
Lauchmelder2 votesA champion can become too strong when all of his/her counters get nerfed or the meta shifts to favor them.
It's mainly called "indirect buffs".
Bronze II Yasuo 2 votesLulu was never a bad pick into any mage supports, she was always a well rounded pick.
Ahristocats3 votesYou know people are just tired of seeing your daily Lulu give me free upvotes pls threads.
if i wanted upvotes long time ago i would have stopped lulu threads as they give me nothing but downvotes
On a side note Lulu is in fact balanced
because you said so
like many people have said she never received any major buffs
going from giving no attack speed to being the only enchenter giving attack speed, fair enough having her slow going from 1 sec to 2 sec, fair enough having her passive damage increased from 8 to 15, gaining nearly 100% power and having it gaining damage faster
again all of this isn't major
so if she was such a problem why wasn't it addressed sooner rather than now?
because we used to have more broken champs like malz zyra and karma but your memory is infact destroyed
Oh wait I know, FoTM LCS bandwagon
nobody ever talked about lcs, nobody ever gave a shit about lcs
Bronze II Yasuo 4 votesThose Lulu buffs were long time ago yet you bring them up now?
Also Lulu was never counted by burst Mage since she's pretty much the epitome to stop any burst on to squishes because her ult, so what's your point with that?
Ahristocats2 votesThose Lulu buffs were long time ago yet you bring them up now?
because they played a role in making lulu the strongest support right now?
Also Lulu was never counted by burst Mage
i never said she was countered by burst mage, she always had 53% win rate but her pick rate was never high until riot nerfed mages and other supports like karma so once you understand that lulu wasn't a problem BECAUSE WE HAD BIGGER PROBLEMS you will understand at the same time how she became not fine
Bronze II Yasuo 3 votes[{quoted}](name=Dr Sona x Rubick,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=awRpB7Gg,comment-id=000e000100000000,timestamp=2017-03-29T17:00:00.997+0000)
because they played a role in making lulu the strongest support right now?
So a buff nearly half a year ago seems so significant now? lol right youre just trying to find any excuse you can if it was such an issue I'm sure you would've made a thread when those buffs went live not now
i never said she was countered by burst mage, she always had 53% win rate but her pick rate was never high until riot nerfed mages and other supports like karma so once you understand that lulu wasn't a problem BECAUSE WE HAD BIGGER PROBLEMS you will understand at the same time how she became not fine
So what are you arguing? Are you saying Lulu counters every single support in the game right now? You haven't even stated any issues about Lulu in any of your posts it's always you talking about winrate/ban rate and pick rate.
OtterlyLost3 votesSo did everyone just admit that Lulu isn't OP, just annoying? I appreciate that since I don't feel Lulu is OP at all; just really annoying to deal with.
TyrekGoldenspear3 votesWell from what I know, Lulu's banrate stems from a frustration factor stemming from her single target denial+her lane bully potential.
This is becuase she screws over the high elo goal of murdering the carry as fast as possible via making picks and objective control.
However Lulu can delete a champ for 1-2 seconds, shield, and grow an ally to save them. This coupled with exhaust means that no ADC dies under Lulu's watch.
So I would recommend doing something that Lulu wouldn't expect. Focus her, but not immediately. So charge her ward first, then turn on her when she drops her stuff on her ADC, turn on her immediately and kill her.
Alternatively, take advantage of the fact that her supporting is single target, not AOE. Her overall teamfighting is lackluster compared to other supports as a result, so forcing outnumbered fights would be optimal.
The last piece of advice...
You guys are high elo. Git gud. No excuses from you guys. :P
LostFr0st2 votes[...]
So I would recommend doing something that Lulu wouldn't expect. Focus her, but not immediately. So charge her ward first, then turn on her when she drops her stuff on her ADC, turn on her immediately and kill her.
[...]
Here's how that probably plays out (correct me if I'm wrong):
"I have a plan guys" -> Focus her, but not immediately.
So charge her ward first [Lulu pressed W], then turn on her when she drops her stuff on her ADC, turn on her immediately and kill her. gets chunked or blown up
If someone manages to bait the polymorph or get her to whimsy an ally, then we're cooking. There's 5 to 8 seconds there to go in if reacted to immediately as a team.
Side note: It's probably best not to fight a Lulu team head-on. Maybe this is a symptom of a lack of splitpushing players or how weak splitpush is as a strat right now.
TyrekGoldenspear2 votesSigh... I'm gonna need to put Lulu on the list for Teemo's Advocate at some point. It will give me an excuse to look into this further.
LostFr0st1 votesHaha, yeah. That'll be a polarizing episode.
Tahm ends up just eating her as the 'neutral party.'
I can already picture Teemo sitting behind her booth the whole time,
or rigging the answers so that she gets 
.
I'll look forward to it once exams are over for the both of us^^
TyrekGoldenspear2 votesOh yeah, but first I'll have to dig through everyone else's requests. But I will get to her.
LostFr0st1 votesTake your time. Gotta wait 'till she's in a fairer spot meta-wise so that your post score/votes don't get polymorphed like this one was.
TyrekGoldenspear1 votesNah I think I'll be fine even if I wrote it today.
If only becuase my Yasuo episode was well-received and he's never okay meta-wise. :)
LostFr0st1 votesNah I think I'll be fine even if I wrote it today.
If only because
my Yasuo episode was well-received and he's never okay meta-wise.you're Tyrek ;)
fify. <3
Good luck on your exams btw.
TyrekGoldenspear2 votesAww. :D
That protection doesn't work in Gameplay though. Those people are mean when you rustle their jimmies. :(
Same to you, gl on your exams.
Linna Excel3 votesHonestly?
I'm fine with the popularity and the win rate, however her pick+ban rate is 100% so I think something would be going on. Not a definitely "this needs a nerf" sort of thing but more of a "okay her mains can't play her half the time so let's figure out way" sort of thing.
Titanium702 votesGuess I'm a little late now but I'd say that:
Judging on popularity and WR I'd say that's OK! A high popular Champion with an ok winrate is fine as long as said Champs skillfloor/ceiling is quite low. 50% Banrate however... that always needs some attention. (I'd still say not nerfs per default but at least a closer look into WHY this Champ is banned so much - because of META-favor, than no changes needed - because anitfun, than major changes are needed, but I'd still argue against the GUT until FIXed way because it's a) bad and b) at 50% not to important. - because of OP-Stats, than we need a nerf - because of High Synergy with a new feature... than pray for brain and not Sejus and Co.)
So now what's with Lulu? Her Skillfloor is indeed quite low, although her ceiling is high. Knowing that I'd argue 25-51 is to much. However the origin of this is META-favor and High-Synergy with Itemization and masteries.
That's why I'd throw in a minor nerf but delay any bigger changes until the Items/masteries are somewhat final and/or the META simply shifts out of Lulu favor.
Aptest2 votesTin foil hat on:
What if there was a collusion among super high elo players,
to open up a bunch of low elo accounts and then climb to challenger / master / high diamond on those account, while one-tricking lulu.
what if this was a closely guarded secret, that everybody in the master circuit knew about. A grand practical joke on the rest of us?
The plats, and low diamonds, who are directly under those players, will notice the most. because these climber stay in those leagues the most. And they will start having these memorable moment when "that lulu" hard carried.
From that point, the lulu ban will spread as a meme.
thoughts?
TyrekGoldenspear4 votesIt's what I've been saying.
High elo is nothing but 3 challengers and their smurfs.
Lord Sona X Rubick has been trying to get into their sanctum for years. He has already fallen to the dark side of the meta.
He is doing their bidding for now, perpetrating their hatred of Lulu. Soon he and his tragedy will be well known. Soon he will earn the Darth title.
Ahristocats2 votesyou have no proof
TyrekGoldenspear2 votesI have all the proof I need. I know your legend, your tragedy.
I know you threaten the challengers' natural order, as they are all meta slaves. You need to bide your time, wait until they truly call you The Wise.
But make a wrong step and you will be crushed by their enigmatic enforcer.
Ahristocats2 votesI know you threaten the challengers' natural order, as they are all meta slaves. You need to bide your time, wait until they truly call you The Wise.
but how is this related to lulu? and being one of the 3 high elo players?
TyrekGoldenspear2 votes¯\_(ツ)_/ ¯
You tell me. You're the one labeled "The Wise".
ForgiveColour2 votesshes a "product of meta" and ap so she's balanced xd
Profirix2 votesShe's really not OP.
Asayake 5150glow2 votesLulu is strong because she makes it impossible to solo carry your scrub team [slayer-pantheon-thumbs]
Hethalean1 votesSigns usually point to yes, but there is too little data from just those to tell for sure.
Another important question that is not answered by these 3 stats is WHY they are the way they are (specifically, win rate). Is there an item combo that is OP that this champion can exploit better than anyone?
Maybe the item might be over tuned.
Maybe the meta unnecessarily favors this champion.
Sometimes a champion's kit isn't the problem but something else (a dragon buff or an item). We've seen in the past an item being overtuned which causes champions which might be fine to get nerfed. Then later on the item gets nerfed, and the champion is left to dry.
In Lulu's case, there could be a case for 
being overtuned which I am tempted to believe since if you are support (minus Brand/Zyra/Malzahar), you get those two items no matter what. So basically your build on a support is always the same first 3 items 
. Champions getting when their kit doesn't even want it really is telling too.
DuskDaUmbreon1 votes51.2+49.9=101.1…Something doesn't add up. She's being picked and banned in 1.1% more games than actually exist? When there have been plenty of times I haven't seen her? Granted, it may not be counting in low ELO. But the numbers are still impossible.
Ahristocats2 votes51.2% win rate boy, not pick rate
DuskDaUmbreon1 votesAh. My bad. I thought it was pick…
Well then. I'll point out that a ~51% win rate is pretty far from broken. Ban rate is mostly irrelevant, it's really just what's perceived to be broken. Yasuo's almost always banned in bronze. But is he broken? Not even close. He's just annoying. So, a 51% win rate. That means she wins slightly more than half of games she plays in. Is that honestly surprising? Burst has ostensibly become the meta, and shields counter burst. A champion who not only has shields, but buffs to health (accompanied by a knockback, as well) AND the ability to temporarily stop an assassin is obviously going to do well. Nerfing Lulu would be not be a solution to the problem at all. It would just be a cure for symptom. If burst was made a bit less common (without buffing Lulu, obviously), Lulu would lose popularity, because she wouldn't be as necessary.
Sincerely: someone who has never played as Lulu (since so many QQ threads dismiss any counterarguments as being from mains of that champion).
Ahristocats1 votesYasuo's almost always banned in bronze.
bronze =/= diamond riot balances the game around plat+, and lulu's stats are also imbalanced in plat
DuskDaUmbreon1 votesI was using that as an example of how ban rate is the least important factor. I haven't the faintest idea about Yasuo's ban rate in other tiers.
