I'm so Jealous of Syndra mains (Lee Sin mega thread)

Ahristocats··19 votes·1,857 views

They get Meddler reverting syndra nerf, then breaking his head on a wall to think of a proper nerf that made syndra more skilled and balanced her

meanwhile what lee sin is going to get? -50 damage ulti at lvl 6, -150 damage ulti at lvl 16 do you know how frustrating it is to have lee sin sitting at 30% pick rate, having enemies stealing him and then still doing well because of how retarded his early game is?

This is a lee sin mega thread done by a lee sin main, objectives of this thread: -rant -make riot realises that their job isn't going well -balance lee sin for once

I think we all heard this "Lee falls of late game" yeah we all did, and we all believed it, but lee sin doesn't fall off in late game take a look at his freaking kit: he has: -mobility -aoe slow, aoe knock up, 1000 range knock back, ~~0.75 sec stun on ulti+ ~~0.75 sec stun on ulti at the end of the knock back -insane base damage (which is still the case even if the ulti is nerfed)+scalings -280 hp shield on allies on ~5 sec cd that goes up to 300 with redemption -fog of war reveal -decent durability

listen, Lee sin does fall off in late game, but people have to stop pretending that he doesn't do anything in late game. He has an amazing shield on allies and his ulti can do many things: massive AOE damage, tons of CC+can hook someone into your team if you know how to insec someone (after 6 years now everyone knows how)

Now why am i talking about his late game? because people pretend that due to lee sin trash late game, his early game is fine which is untrue: Someone trash in early game and godlike in late game is fine Someone godlike in earlygame and trash in late game isn't fine (especially since lee sin late game isn't trash) because the champ will make your team going 0/14 especially if he has 350 base ms which allows him to be everywhere

With all of this i hope you understood the reasons i'm proposing the follow changes: Goals: Make Lee sin the "i'm everywhere" champion, but make him unable to duel junglers while also make him weaker than average junglers in the damage sector yes this means nerfing his early game damage but how?: well for reminder he has: 350 base ms Q mobility W mobility

the solution lies in his passive: how comes when every player lists Lee sin kit they forget his passive? his passive is the key to everything: 40% attack speed for 2 AA everytime lee uses a spell, this is insane. this should be changed to give 30/40/50% attack speed to tune down his dueling/damage output

second: Base AD nerf: 61.2------>56 57 or 58 then comes his Q: why do you give Shaco a finisher that scales with lvl while giving 8% hp damage to lee on his Q at lvl 1? either make it scales with lvl or nerf it to 4/5/6/7/8% hp damage

and finally: Iron Will: 10/15/20/25/30% lifesteal/spellvamp nop should be 10/15/20/25/30% bonus damage+healing on monsters/minions

do i need to explain why? because like i said lee sin should be terrible at dueling

Those changes will ACTUALLY do something to lee sin Sincerly, i will stop the lee sin threads now

28 Comments

Dracocrash9 votes

Riot actually did try doing something like you recommended with his passive and other skills.

Unfortunately the community backlashed and the lee sin rework was canceled.

Ahristocats4 votes

Not sure why you're downvoted, this is true but the rework also had bad sides

The good side of the rework was:-nerfing his early game damage by nerfing Q/E/R damage -nerfing his damage against tanks by making his Q doing a % damage increase instead of missing hp damage

but the rework had 2 bad sides:-they wanted to nerf Lee mobility which i think shouldn't be nerfed. -they wanted to make Lee sin late game as good as darius by making his attack speed passive going to 100%, by buffing his late game damage and by making his E doing physical damage

in the end i don't know if the rework was good since i could never tested it

Ulquiorra9952 votes

I don't seem to recall his mobility being nerfed with the rework, but feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

The rework I believe was mostly meant to make him build damage if he wanted to do damage rather than what we have now; his base damage got ruined but he got 100% on passive and total AD scalings. With that he could no longer build 1-2 damage items and still nuke squishes, but if he opted to go for damage he'd actually be a formidable late game fighter.

And one change I really liked was ult change. It had much lower base damage, which sharply increased the more people you hit with it. That offered Lee a clear choice between isolating a squishy without nuking them or aiming to hit as much enemies as possible for much better damage and team-wide CC, but sacrificing the utility a displacement would usually bring... ...and then they brought up rewards for the latter situation anyway because he wasn't a top pick for like 2 patches.

Ahristocats2 votes

if i remember they increased the cost of his W to 100 while refunding 50 if the target was a champion this nerfs lee mobility by a lot actually, right now the cooldown is increased to 14 instead of 7 second, but if it was 100 energy with no refund Lee mobility would have been retrained by a lot

even if you wanted to use it on a champion you needed 100 energy first

Pentium22 votes

Because they wanted to turn him into an autoattacker champion.

Pentium24 votes

14,111 mastery point Lee Sin "Main".

You are not even level 5 on lee.

Ahristocats8 votes

oh wow, it's almost as if i started to play the game 4 months ago, and didn't play between 2013 and 2016

go to lolking and look at season 2 and season 3 then come back but thanks dude, i enjoy being attacked by people not bothering to argue

Pentium23 votes

I understand that, I came back to league in september after a 10 months break and before that I took an almost 2 year long break, but while you have some good points, it loses a lot of your credibility as this ammount of points means you played like 10-15 games on him in his current state, and even after a 3 year long break that is not a big enough sample size to judge a champion.

All I did was question your credibility.

But ofc feeding the bandwagoners is always welcome both here and on reddit.

Ahristocats3 votes

{quoted}

and even after a 3 year long break that is not a big enough sample size to judge a champion.

lol ok, so Lee sin changed between 2012 and 2016? yeah, he lost his attack speed debuff, armor steroid and some stuff were done on his W, but in the end his gameplay is still the same, i'm doing the same things i did in 2012. not a single thing changed you might tell me that he hadn't %bonus hp damage on his ulti but he still kicked people into other people to do an AOE knock up

{quoted} as this ammount of points means you played like 10-15 games

it's almost as if Lee wasn't banned/picked by enemies a lot, i do my best to pick him every games but i can't always get him.

Pentium22 votes

The %bonushp dmg on the ult is from the initial target to the others you knock up with him, it was added right after he got nerfed after S3 multiple times.

The problem with the %missing hp comparison to the shaco level scaling one is, that shaco's is a point and click ability, you can argue if you think point and clicks should be rewarded the same way skillshots, but I don't think that makes much sense.

Lee is a champ that relies on a shitto nof practise, if I didn't have 3-400 games on him from back in season 2-3, then I would most likely not bother playing him right now, he scales with practise a lot, unlikely an other comparison is Vi, who can just point and click ult any1 without a zhonya to make a pick, while with lee you need a little bit more work to do the same thing.

I'm not saying Vi is OP or anything, but takes significantly less practise to get a very similar result with it.

TheOvermind2 votes

No he doesn't U r just dumb

Pentium23 votes

Best argument ever, thanks for your well thought input.

bbQsauçe3 votes

[deleted]

Ahristocats5 votes

So once i have 50 more games on lee ON THIS SEASON my opinion will become valid?

got it

Pentium22 votes

Well you can be a hidden talent, who can use kickflash (the animation cancel ult flash for those who don't know what it is) and execute everything perfectly after such a long break without any practise (in which chase you should apply to an LCS team immediately), I even had problems remembering the champs walk with right clicking.

And yes, if you had 50+ games on him that would mean, you are a lot more credible, when talking about a champion that is supposed to be your main, I get more than 14k mastery point on my main in 4 months, but I only play 1 to 5 games a day and not always on the same champ.

Ahristocats3 votes

alright, i'll be back after 50 games and my opinion will magically be valid, i'll just wait then

bbQsauçe3 votes

[deleted]

Ahristocats1 votes

are you stupid? i said his late game isn't bad enough for his early game, infact he is still relevant in late game if using the tools in his kit

Ulquiorra9951 votes

Because someone might have played that champion a lot before mastery system got introduced. For example, I'm only mastery 5 at Zyra and Lucian but have played them for long into every possible matchup and know their ins and outs in detail.

And unlike those, Lee never got any drastic kit changes; he's pretty much the same he was on his release minus some minor things that got removed. While someone who was an old Zilean main and came back probably wouldn't have his opinion held very strong, for Lee it does not make much of a difference.

Ulquiorra9954 votes

I'm afraid it's too late to do something about Lee. What will finally kill him are not balance changes; it's the upcoming 10 bans.

He's had this preferential treatment and was allowed to kill variety for far too long. Everyone who's not a Lee main is fucking sick of him at this point. You know how he's fun and flashy and as such has a high pick rate even when he's not that good? I expect something like that to happen with bans; even when he's terrible (yeah, Lee being terrible, funny I know) he'll be banned very often simply because of how much people are sick of him. Not to say about what'll happen if he stays strong; in that case you will probably get to play him only in Blind pick.

And also, I applaud you for being a Lee main who acknowledges the problem instead of being "muh skillcap" "muh late game" and actually offers decent, constructive criticism on how to tone him down. That is a rare sight indeed on these boards.

And an opinion on changes you proposed, they are mostly fine but I think he should still have some benefit from his W on champions; abilities that only work on minions aren't really good design because they have to be overpowered at what they do in order to compensate for not having them in fights against champions.

Ahristocats2 votes

{quoted}

abilities that only work on minions aren't really good design because they have to be overpowered at what they do in order to compensate for not having them in fights against champions.

but isn't it fair since his W already gives 280 hp shield? else yes i agree

TheOvermind1 votes

I really like your ideas ; the solution to lee basically has always been : less damage , more utility . Which was what that canceled rework was going to do , but the lee sin mains caused an outrage of complaining , and well , it got canceled and riot never messed with lee sins damage again.

Ahristocats2 votes

like i said above the rework didn't answer to everything, it's undoubtable that they gave him less damage and i support it but they nerfed his W mobility, and made lee scaling into late game. Why is this a problem? because Lee in late game should use his kit to be usefull (shield,slow, knock up, mobility,reveal ect...) and not running around with a 100% attack speed steroid to do damage

TheOvermind1 votes

well agreed, but if that was the issue with that rework why not discuss it with riot and give him something else instead of that passive buff. If i remember correctly , everyone was crying that Lee sin's early would be "gutted" and wanted the rework canceled. I mean it's undoubtedly one of if not the best early games in the game , I dont see a problem toning it down. The mobility and damage is off the charts early game for lee, and you seem to agree with that, but most of the lee players seem to like being everywhere and killing everyone in the early game without anyone getting in their way.

JhomasTefferson1 votes

I agree with everything except for the w healing change, and think the execute should scale with level

Snake Town1 votes

I've been playing this game for 2-3 years, and this is the first time I've syndra not be a dumpster tier champ.

Remind me again how the lee sin main is jealous?

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