Riot, when you give Irelia a vgu, please make sure she still wins vs ranged champions in lane

FalconPawwwwnch·Oct 30, 2016·31 votes·2,315 views

I don't want ranged champions to be even more faceroll top lane than they already are

Thanks

50 Comments

RalanrOct 30, 201613 votes

If so, can they make her not as frustrating to fight in melee?

Only Play DariusOct 30, 20163 votes

They could lower her base stats but reduce her mana usage and give her more mobility, that way she can juke around squishy ranged champs but can't out stat melees in close range fights

RalanrOct 30, 20161 votes

It could work, in theory.

Legacy HydralphaOct 30, 201619 votes

I do not want more Yasuos. Please.

Brain Errör 404Oct 30, 20163 votes

I was a Yasuo once fighting an irelia in a minion wave. The only thing is... she did what Yasuo does better once she can one shot minions (only in a 1v1 ofc) because of her point and click stun... I never felt so defeated in my life. I had to type "???? SORRY DADDY, YOU ARE THE TRUE WINDMAN" in chat.

55976771DEL2Oct 30, 20161 votes

Imagine her saying ''TON!'' after each Q cast Irelia Lel...

Tychusfindlay919Oct 31, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Imagine her saying ''TON!'' after each Q cast Lel...

Instead we're stuck with "WOAH"

LankPantsOct 31, 20161 votes

Shouldn't a melee champ be frustrating to fight in their own range? If you're playing Kennen or Jayce and an Irelia, Jax or Darius closes the distance to you they should straight up hand you your arse on a silver platter.

DunkinNoobsOct 30, 20165 votes

Irelia isn't good against ranged champs. She's good against squishy champs. It just so happens that ranged champs tend to fall into that category, but several melee's do as well.

WiegrafOfValorOct 30, 20161 votes

AGREED

#UP

WoonStruckOct 30, 20161 votes

They can do this by literally just changing her W and R.

Least interesting parts of her kit, and a large part of the reason she scales pretty much solely on itemization.

Irelia BotOct 30, 20161 votes

I actually think making her Ult become a regular ability on a charge system simular to akali's ult would be good.

They could make it have more interaction with other abilities if they did that and Many Irelia players often use her ult to make a leapfrog targets when the time calls for that.

That being said I also kinda hope they make a few other melee solid against other melee and highly effective against ranged.

WoonStruckOct 30, 20162 votes

Her ult is a large part of the reason she's so reliant on TF, since it allows her to have spammable sheen procs. As much as I like her as she is, I do believe she needs to be moved away from that.

Irelia BotOct 30, 20162 votes

and built what instead?

reylai's every game or whatever is FotM OP on her champ class?

It isn't like trinity is making her into a drain tank.

Most champs have a couple items that work better on them then others.

WoonStruckOct 30, 20161 votes

What any other diver builds?

Trinity Force is not the only item in the game. Her not being over-reliant on it anymore would be good.

Nobody's saying she shouldn't be allowed to use it. She just needs to not be as reliant on it as she currently is.

That's currently what makes her an issue. You don't nerf Irelia by nerfing Irelia. It simply doesn't work. You nerf Irelia by nerfing Trinity Force, which is unfair to any other champion who would consider buying it.

That's what needs to change.

Bladerunner7777Oct 30, 20161 votes

and passive*

WoonStruckOct 30, 20161 votes

Her passive is only a problem because of how insanely well she scales with Trinity Force, which pretty much comes down to solely her W and R.

If she's divorced a bit from Trinity Force, her passive is fine, and actually quite healthy, on a diver.

Bladerunner7777Oct 30, 20161 votes

What?

Irelia's passive sucks, it's boring, and it's uninteractive

I don't think it's strong, I want it reworked because of how lame it is.

WoonStruckOct 30, 20163 votes

You know what else is boring and uninteractive? Being melee vs ranged. Her passive helps her close that gap and keep it closed later in the game.

Bladerunner7777Oct 30, 20162 votes

Uh no

The reason Irelia is good vs ranged is because of a few reasons, her passive isn't one

Q - Can gapclose on to ranged champions easily (via minion resets)

W - Free sustain in lane and also great at farming under tower (in addition to Q). The sustain helps her stay in lane with pokey ranged champs

E - CC counters most ranged laners. Irelia can gapclose on to a ranged champion and CC them easily.

Irelia's passive is completely negligible in lane, negligible in teamfights, and semi-decent when you're splitpushing (and already fed, it doesn't make you a splitpush god like Trynd or anything).

Do you even play Irelia? Or do you think complaining about Ranged toplaners fascinating?

To quote Irelia Carries U, a challenger Irelia one-trick, this is what he said when Irelia's passive was nerfed semi-recently:

on the irelia nerfs, I don't feel a difference, I don't think the nerf did anything other than lower the ban rate (yay) her passive is useless I might make a video on how I think riot can rework her without altering her too much

and also

lol yeah the passive change makes no difference. it was bad before so if they nerf it into the ground it won't really matter too much

WoonStruckOct 30, 20162 votes

Her passive has good potential on a diver, and doesn't directly affect her damage output in most cases.

I mean, unless you want to add more damage, CC, or defense to her, which would only make her stronger.

I know why she's strong in lane; I'm referring to later in the game (when she'll have more than 10% tenacity), where she'd be noticeably weaker without it, though not significantly weaker. She'd fall off more than she already does if she didn't have it.

**Her W sustain doesn't do a ton in ranged match-ups because you'd be taking free harass while you try to use it for healing. **The sustain mostly helps when you have them zoned or are under tower. It also doesn't help her farm under tower; I never find myself needing W to get CS. Only a few you'd need Q for even.

Her passive is useless in laning, and laning up through mid game is about making picks as Irelia, where you won't be utilizing your passive very much. That's why he's saying its useless. There was also a significant amount of displacement that was meta at the time, which was another reason he said that.

Not only that, but the passive just made it so she had to do exactly what she already does to get full effect from her passive: dive. Obviously that's not going to make her weaker.

Bladerunner7777Oct 30, 20163 votes

Her passive has good potential on a diver

let me stop you right there

Why balance a diver around shitty % increases in tenacity when there is literally a diver that get 100% tenacity with their ult Olaf Olaf Olaf Olaf Olaf Olaf Olaf

If I really wanted to ignore CC and run through a team, I would play Olaf. If I want to dash around like a spaz (which I do), I would play Irelia.

Her W sustain doesn't do a ton in ranged match-ups because you'd be taking free harass while you try to use it for healing.

this is just false

you're trying to make it sound like playing vs a ranged champion means you're constantly under fire at every second during the laning phase, which is far from the truth.

Contrary to popular belief, Ranged champions can't just walk up to you and AA you whenever they want indefinitely.

Yes, they can walk up to you

Yes, they can auto attack you without you being able to retaliate

But you know what that does? That draws minion aggro; that's how the game works. When minions are attacking the ranged champion, they are not attacking the enemy minions. Enemy minions will be killing your minions while not being damaged themselves. This in turn will make the enemy minion wave push into your tower.

When you're standing close to your tower, the enemy can not auto attack you unless they want to take free tower shots.

OBVIOUSLY if you stand at the edge of your tower, you are susceptible to being AA with no retaliation.

OBVIOUSLY if you are not in range of your minions, the enemy will be able to harass you without drawing aggro

This is the very basics of wave management, which is something that most stubborn players are not conscious of nor do they seem to show any interest in learning the art of managing a wave, ie the majority of the boards.

Sometimes there really is nothing you can do by yourself against a ranged top laner. I think this can be broken up into 3 categories of champions.

Champions with decent CC

As a champion with good CC against a ranged top laner, your best bet is to play super passively and not give up kills; it sucks. However not all hope is lost. Because you're in a really bad matchup, the enemy ranged laner should always be pushing you to your tower (if you are managing your wave properly). This makes it really easy for your jungler to gank and even easier considering you have CC to help them gank.

Playing against this requires teamwork, hence why you see so many complaints on the boards.

Carry top laners

If you picked a carry top laner you shouldn't be complaining at all. Don't play carry top laners if you can't handle ranged matchups

Splitpushers

Splitpushers will always be pretty useful no matter how far behind you get. In this circumstance you can give up a lot without having to rely on your jungler to help you out. The enemy is forced into two options: Sacrificing towers so they can group with their team, or constantly being locked in lane and have few opportunities to group (Generally most ranged top laners like to group because their splitpushing isn't that great)

Looking at your match history, I have little reason to believe that your opinion of Irelia's passive is greater than a challenger Irelia player. Much less, your opinion on Ranged vs Melee, considering your most played champion outside of ARAM is Vladimir.

Which makes me inclined to believe you are only complaining about Ranged vs Melee for the sake of complaining, and that your reasoning isn't even based on anecdotal evidence as much as it is based on other people's opinions.

RequiemsfireOct 31, 20164 votes

I don't think you should compare the passive of Irelia's to Olaf's ultimate. Olaf needs that ultimate to be functional at all.

Irelia's passive does actually help pretty significantly in winning skirmishes early on against an opposing laner or escaping certain death.

Bladerunner7777Oct 31, 20161 votes

PLEASE

Please convince me that Irelia's passive is good

without saying things such as "it helps"; PROVE it to me

Show me multiple instances where Irelia's passive narrowly helps her accomplish anything, or where her passive is significantly more useful than an enemy's passive which is why she wins a duel, etc.

Nobody here has proven anything, only claims because her passive seems good in theory.

Sorry to break it to everyone, but Irelia's passive is just that, good in theory. In reality it is almost useless.

I still stand by my original statement: Irelia's passive, as it is, is boring, non-interactive, useless during most phases of the game, and needs to be reworked. I'm okay with the idea of a "tenacity girl" that people falsely think Irelia is right now, but the way it is now isn't accomplishing that at all.

Think to yourself, how many times have you thought "Wow the Swiftness http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/7/7b/Swiftness_mastery_s4.png/revision/latest?cb=20131122000449 mastery really saved my ass here!"? Because that mastery is better than Irelia's passive for the majority of the game.

UltîmaOct 30, 20161 votes

It wouldn't surprise me if they gave Irelia more access to range in her own kit given that she's supposed to be a telekinetic blade-wielder.

Her E and passive are likely going to be the biggest changes in her kit since they're the source of her "stat check" play pattern.

WoonStruckOct 30, 20163 votes

Her E and passive do no encourage a stat-check play pattern.

Her W and R do. Can you kill her before the attackspeed and sheen procs that TF provides? That's pretty much what it comes down to. Her W and R enable TF builds.

Would you rather have her stunning you 100% of the time, just being able to Q directly to you for it? Her passive, Q, and E are the parts that should be kept, if anything.

hhaavviikkOct 30, 20164 votes

her E should be changed completely, it punishes you for doing well against her.

Samflash3Oct 30, 20161 votes

And helps you when you're losing to her.

WoonStruckOct 30, 20164 votes

It doesn't punish you for doing well against her. It punishes you for making a mistake, just like any other CC can.

She's put at a detriment if she's ahead/even, not the other way around.

Treat her like you would a Riven, Darius, or Garen match-up. Don't let her get to you for free and she can't do anything to you.

UltîmaOct 31, 20162 votes

Her E literally punishes you for having more health % than her. Given that she also has access to an extremely fast targeted dash, it gives her a pretty consistent access to her stun whenever that condition is fulfilled. Even Riven's mobility doesn't give her that kind of reach.

That's pretty much the definition of "punishes you for doing well against her". Winning against Irelia is a lot more dependent on the lane match-up than it is by the player's ability to outplay her.

WoonStruckOct 31, 20162 votes

Winning against most champions is more dependent on the lane match-up than it is by the player's ability to outplay them.

That's pretty much how asymmetrical balance works.

Irelia is nothing special in that regard. Are you telling me Quinn is any better in that regard? Gnar? Yasuo? GP?

All of these match-ups are lost by the person playing them or the champion they're against, not by another outplaying them.

You want older examples? Nasus. Trundle. Maokai. Rumble. Pantheon.

Saying Irelia's E punishes you for doing well against her is like saying any champion with CC punishes you for playing against them in the first place.

Irelia is not the be-all-end-all champion that you think she is. She can't punish you for free just because you won a trade. Her stun is going to give her 1.25 seconds. That's maybe an extra auto attack or two. The time that this would likely be happening is pre-9. So you're looking at maybe 300 additional damage at that level, 2/3 of which would be reduced by armor.

If you out-traded her before, its likely that your return damage would still keep you ahead. Congrats, now you can dive her with your jungler, or even without, depending on who the champion you're using is. The main reason she isn't picked in competitive commonly. Her laning is extremely punishable if she wants to have halfway decent trades, and her reliance on TF means she won't be getting tanky any time soon.

UltîmaOct 31, 20163 votes

To your first point.

You can dodge Quinn and Gnar's Q and you can deny GP's barrels. Yasuo is notorious for having some of the most insane counterplay issues in the game so comparing Irelia to one of the worst offenders in the game with regards to overall game balance and health isn't exactly conductive to a discussion. Also interesting that you should say "All of these match-ups are lost by the person playing them or the champion they're against, not by another outplaying them" and cite GP as an example, given that Irelia walks all over that matchup in particular.

Moreover, a point-click CC is an insane amount of power. Very few champions have access to that power. Annie TwistedFate do, but one involves a stacking mechanic and the other a shuffling mechanic; both extremely telegraphed before they're unleashed. There is no such thing against Irelia; it happens instantly as soon as both characters have the same % health value or less. At best this offers Irelia a means to dive unto someone and punish them for harassing her, at worst it allows her to completely negate a trade and win it in her favor. It's not a good expression of skill for Irelia, and it doesn't offer any form of counterplay for her opponent. It's a brain-dead, frustrating mechanic that should (and will) be removed from her kit.

WoonStruckOct 31, 20161 votes

Comparing her to Annie or TF is entirely faulty because those are ranged stuns.

Try comparing her to Renekton, Pantheon, Blitz, effectively Alistar, effectively Maokai.

None of these are telegraphed, and Renekton/Panth are far, far, FAR stronger during laning.

hhaavviikkOct 31, 20163 votes

the mistake of attacking her, right, garen his ult mechanic got changed for the exact same reason

WoonStruckOct 31, 20163 votes

No, Garen got changed because its nearly impossible for the Villain to go even with him in a 1v1 fight.

Irelia's E is not the same in any way, shape, or form. Its not hard to fight Irelia. In fact, its easier to fight her than any other top laner with a stun.

hhaavviikkOct 31, 20163 votes

it had the same condition

''but you shouldn’t be penalized for successfully crushing his dreams in lane."

DemacianJustice.jpg R - Demacian Justice "Removed"SELF-DEFENSE: Killing Garen no longer causes the killer to gain Villainy''

you get penalized when you are ahead on irelia and fighting her, after all if you're ahead you deal more damage meaning she will stun you every time, whether it's OP or not it's a bad mechanic.

LankPantsOct 31, 20164 votes

Garen punishes you for doing well on a game wide level, Irelia punishes you for not paying attention to your current HP. You can burst Irelia out and not ever let her proc an E, it's really not even close to Garen.

hhaavviikkOct 31, 20163 votes

so what you're saying is don't ever get near irelia if she has the possibility of stunning you, doesn't sound like very fun and engaging gameplay.

same argument could be used for garen, simply burst down garen and he can't deal true damage to you with his ult passive

LankPantsOct 31, 20163 votes

You can't burst a Juggernaut 100-0, it's not a thing. What you can do against Irelia is burst her from about 50%, this isn't an option against Garen, if you're the Villain and he closes to melee range he always gets his true damage ticks off on you.

You can do things like hold a CC vs Irelia and keep your HP lower than hers until you can burst her out, then stun and burst her. That's how you play around Irelia's stun, it's actually not that hard, but the community loves to scream 'no counterplay' about anything they don't like without actually stopping to think about how they can play around things.

hhaavviikkOct 31, 20161 votes

it's also not a thing with irelia unless you're 8 levels ahead and using a burst mage top.

did you check what her passive does? keep your health lower then hers? alright enjoy never killing her or only playing burst mages top so you can burst her from 100% health to avoid the point&click CC but oh wait she builds tanky so nvm

LankPantsOct 31, 20162 votes

did you check what her passive does?

Her passive gives her 10% tenacity in a 1v1, the only time it ever gives more is when you're ganking her, in which case you should have a huge advantage anyway. 10% Tenacity isn't that much, you can CC an Irelia.

keep your health lower then hers? alright enjoy never killing her or only playing burst mages top so you can burst her from 100% health to avoid the point&click CC but oh wait she builds tanky so nvm

Rushing a Triforce isn't tanky. If you're trying to 1v1 and Irelia after lane phase how about don't do that? There's other ways to play the game than mindlessly fighting everything in font of you.

hhaavviikkNov 1, 20161 votes

ok I tried to CC her but oh look at that, my CC is a skillshot and hers isn't.

I'm sure a zac or my teemo will have a field day bursting down irelia, if the only counterplay to 1 single basic ability is to burst them down so they can't use it on you then that isn't a very well designed ability is it now?

The GovernerOct 31, 20161 votes

Better yet, make all melee champions have a better chance (this can be slightly varied) against ranged and equal chance against melee, respective of their classes and sub-classes.

R FLASH XDOct 31, 20161 votes

against anyone*

KeepeOct 31, 20161 votes

Ryze She does what now?

RaxistaichoOct 31, 20161 votes

They're planning on leaving her Q alone if they can help it, and her Q is a lot of what allows her to kill ranged champs. Irelia's still going to be a diver, and divers excel at killing squishies.

Irelia BotNov 1, 20161 votes

Well the other part is being able to hold squishes in place that already damaged her.