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@Riot (Repertoir?): Where is the logic?

Divewing··24 votes·4,996 views

I recall seeing somewhere that you don't (often) undo buffs/nerfs, and instead look to other abilities to change instead. What I don't understand is why can't you refer a change then nerf/buff something else?

My case and point: Kog maw (because topical) The latest change (moving his atk speed buff) clearly put him over the edge, but rather than revert it and try something else, you're planning to nerf his base AS... This was/is only a problem because of a choice you made, but rather than target that mistake specifically, you are all too ready to run through the entire rest of his kit to balance it out. And it seems odd and illogical if you ask me. Are you afraid of admitting you were wrong? That you messed up? That we will laugh at you if you say such? Because that would be totally unwarranted. Everyone makes mistakes, and I was always told to fix it and not learn from it. Not to ignore it by covering it up.

20 Comments

RiotMeddler18 votes

In patch 5.22 we increased Kog's base AS from 0.625 to 0.665 amongst other changes. We're now thinking that change wasn't a good one afterall and are looking to revert it, dropping Kog back to a base attack speed of 0.625. We're also looking into whether there's now too little power in Kog's Q relative to the rest of his kit, given it looks like optimal builds may not rank it until forced to at 13.

Quepha17 votes

{quoted}

We're also looking into whether there's now too little power in Kog's Q relative to the rest of his kit, given it looks like optimal builds may not rank it until forced to at 13.

I think it's less about power and more about it not fitting into his play pattern at all. Given how hard it is to land a skillshot like that at the range Kog'maw prefers to be at, it doesn't even feel like it's worth bothering to try and land it. Especially since landing it only gives you a damage benefit instead of protecting you from a target like your E does. Kog'maw's Q has never seemed like it was leveled for any reason other than the passive AS it provided.

Solidair31 votes

Why not split his passive attack speed between his Q and W?

Retillin2 votes

Wasn't he decent prior to the shifting of the passive to W? If so why not revert that and see what happens first?

kile1471 votes

Not really, he was pretty weak before these recent changes. The only reason these changes helped is because he gets so much power by leveling W now that he's an early game monster

Erockandroll1 votes

{quoted}

In patch 5.22 we increased Kog's base AS from 0.625 to 0.665 amongst other changes. We're now thinking that change wasn't a good one afterall and are looking to revert it, dropping Kog back to a base attack speed of 0.625. We're also looking into whether there's now too little power in Kog's Q relative to the rest of his kit, given it looks like optimal builds may not rank it until forced to at 13.

Quick question, what about his ult?

I recall one of the possible buffs for Kog was putting a little power back on his Ultimate. Are we not considering that anymore? are we adamant that AP Kog shouldn't be a thing?

DorkunedAuras5 votes

Here's an idea. Removing the passive AS from abilites, and make it so that he gets 2% more AS per level. It slows his scaling here, but with the same effect at lvl 18. gives him a lot slower of scaling

Eeyore1 votes

How do you think it would play out moving the percentile damage from W to a debuff applied by Q? W would remain a god-like attack speed steroid - and the "corrosion" would be percentile damage for X seconds instead of resist-shred.

Maybe make the Q splatter and affect multiple people, to make it less land-or-fail.

  • Caustic Spittle
  • Kog'Maw hurls a globule of spittle forward in a line that splatters on collision with an enemy or reaching maximum range, applying Caustic Sptittle to all enemies in a wide area behind them for 5 seconds. If the spittle hits an enemy, they also take magic damage. Kog'Maw's basic attacks (and maybe ult?) deal %health damage to enemies marked with Caustic Spittle.
  • Cooldown substantially reduced.
  • Cost tuned to suit the change.
  • Bio-Arcane Barrage
  • Bonus damage removed.
  • Cost removed.

I think this set-up would be attractive to AD, AP and AS builds. I've honestly not cared for his Q since it was made a skill shot (and I was honestly hoping it was gonna remain a targeted ability that was affected by his W range when you first said you were changing it way back when). It went from his only reliable damage on AP to a worse version of his E, which made me take W second even on AP Kog. The later increase in range made it okay - but it still feels subpar to Ezreal's Q for a skill that I always feel like I should be using in the same way.

Something I've always though would be good for Wall of Pain (Willbachbakal's idea) that might work here instead, "Kog'Maw hurls a globule of spittle forward in a line, dealing magic damage to the first enemy hit and halving their current health for 3 seconds, which is represented as grey health and is restored at the end of the duration (them being alive permitting)". Depends whether the goal of his Q is to actually "shred", and how do you make that feel impactful at all times?

atomicwit1 votes

{quoted}

In patch 5.22 we increased Kog's base AS from 0.625 to 0.665 amongst other changes. We're now thinking that change wasn't a good one afterall and are looking to revert it, dropping Kog back to a base attack speed of 0.625. We're also looking into whether there's now too little power in Kog's Q relative to the rest of his kit, given it looks like optimal builds may not rank it until forced to at 13.

Please, if you put some extra power in Q somehow, make it in a way that benefits AP more than AD. AP Kog was really hurt by the rework and nerfing base AS hurts him too since Q is usually maxed 2nd in AP builds. While I wish the AS wasn't moved from Q to W in the first place and these changes seem inconsistent with a hypercarry (weakening late game, making early stronger), I think he'll still be good as an ADC with .625 just because the early game is much better still. Although, I play Kog to be a hyperscaler not a lane bully or mid game champ. so I'd rather be pathetic early and stronger late.

ofart3 votes

{quoted}

In patch 5.22 we increased Kog's base AS from 0.625 to 0.665 amongst other changes. We're now thinking that change wasn't a good one afterall and are looking to revert it, dropping Kog back to a base attack speed of 0.625. We're also looking into whether there's now too little power in Kog's Q relative to the rest of his kit, given it looks like optimal builds may not rank it until forced to at 13.

I don't think this will be enough because it still warps his power curve to early and mid game instead of a traditional hypercarry curve like for Vayne or when he had AS on Q (actually having to choose between range/safety or damage). With the new Warlord's, as well as the large Corki nerfs and minor Lucian nerf, he will still be quite dominant AS AN ADC. I want to emphasize that because his mid lane has been in a pretty bad spot ever since the rework and we were promised it wouldn't be since there are plenty of AP Kog fans and it's not like AP Kog is some lame new gimmick based on one item. He had a rich and distinct playstyle of his own and a kit with plenty of AP scalings to back it up. He should not be a second class citizen and the Q as well as base AS changes only make that style weaker. I think this may be a much better and more consistent nerf idea (creating a more logical power curve).

MisterHealYoGirl5 votes

Well, if you think about it, they only changed the champion at all because there was something wrong with it. Of all the possible orientations of Kog'Maw's kit, they know that they weren't satisfied with the last one, and they're not happy with this one either. Reverting a change doesn't make sense because it was changed from something they KNOW was bad; since they don't want the champion to be bad, it makes sense to change other aspects of the champion to make them good.

Rebonack3 votes

{quoted}

Well, if you think about it, they only changed the champion at all because there was something wrong with it. Of all the possible orientations of Kog'Maw's kit, they know that they weren't satisfied with the last one, and they're not happy with this one either. Reverting a change doesn't make sense because it was changed from something they KNOW was bad; since they don't want the champion to be bad, it makes sense to change other aspects of the champion to make them good.

But Kog's Q and W design were good, not bad.

It gated Kog's power and gave him his spike in strength quite a bit latter in the game. Given that Kog is supposed to be a hyper scaler that's how it should be. What Riot is doing is a good idea if they want him to be a mid-game carry, not a hyper carry like Vayne or Twitch.

Divewing3 votes

Which ofc is completely all fine and good (working as intended), provided THAT IS WHAT THEY WANT. However the PBE nerf would suggest otherwise.

Rebonack2 votes

{quoted}

Which ofc is completely all fine and good (working as intended), provided THAT IS WHAT THEY WANT. However the PBE nerf would suggest otherwise.

Quite a few Kog players are pretty puzzled about it.

This change will reduce Kog's power at all stages of the game. Reasonable, since he's over-tuned.

But what Kog needs is to be weaker early and stronger later. But Riot seems to be dead set full-speed-ahead on mid-game powerhouse Kog.

MisterHealYoGirl3 votes

The design was fine in theory, but in practice his early game was so catastrophically terrible that he had a lot of trouble getting there, much more so than other hypercarries. This was the problem that they sought to address by moving his attack speed to his W. He's now too strong, and they're looking to nerf him, but just moving the attack speed back doesn't make sense: that was problematic before, and it's problematic now. Now they're lowering his base attack speed so that the ramp up from his 1-9 (as he maxes W) is less intense while more or less maintaining his late game.

Pika3105 votes

Essentially you've just described Fearless' entire career at Rito:

Make a massive game-shattering mistake; pretend it was a success; further nerf and abandon it, hoping players forget; rinse & repeat.

ProfDrDeath4 votes

WTF are you even talking about?

Quepha4 votes

{quoted}

WTF are you even talking about?

He's salty about Sona. That defines his existence.

ZT Xperimentor4 votes

I'm curious if it's fear, pride, or denial of their mistakes that they refuse to acknowledge them.

CooLTanG1 votes

Offtopic, but could Tryndamere get some love? A steroid (atk speed, armor pen, crit dmg) on his ultimate would be great. I can't remember last time I've seen him in patch notes.

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