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Azir nerfs: Riot can you stop nerfing champions based solely on competitive usage?

Nausicäa ··45 votes·5,234 views

This happens time and time again. A new champion is picked up as a popular pick in competitive play, 2-3 patches later that champion gets nerfed. Why is this the case?

Champion popularity in competitive play does not necessarily signal imbalance. Even pro players are fallible human beings. They often look over strong or viable picks or otherwise pick champions that arent very strong or dont fit their team composition.
What you have to understand is that there is a competitive meta for champion picks that fluctuates over time. This meta is not based on what is objectively overpowered or strong but rather the perceived strength of a champion at a particular time. This meta also frequently shifts, a champion can stop getting picked despite receiving no changes at all.

Lets look at Azir in the NA LCS for the summer split

Azir was picked 23 times Of those 23 picks he won 10 games and lost 13 games. This makes his win rate an unimpressive **43.5%. **

Now EU LCS

22 picks, 11 wins and 11 loses for a balanced** 50% win rate.**

LCK 18 win 21 losses 46%

LPL 26 win 33 losses 44%

Now lets look at solo queue.

On LoLking Azir has an average win rate of 44%. Looking only at Diamond we see a very similar win rate of about** 45%** which is fairly consistent and thus ruling out the argument that he is a high skill cap champion whose win rate is only tanked by low elo players.

Looking at OP gg Azirs average win rate is 45% Looking at diamond again we see consistency at **45%. **

Personally i fail to see how these statistics reflect a champion that is overpowered and is in need of nerfs. I dont understand why Riot looks at a champions P/B rate in competitive and just automatically comes to the conclusion that this champion needs sweeping nerfs/changes.

49 Comments

Sir Yamazuki10 votes

His winrate is low due to him being different and a bit difficult to use. Azir's winrate increases dramatically depending on skill level with the champion. http://champion.gg/champion/Azir Even in plat+, there is a large gap, from 41% to 55%.

Nausicäa 1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lord Yamazuki,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ath9Fzj7,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2015-07-09T03:56:11.491+0000)

His winrate is low due to him being different and a bit difficult to use. Azir's winrate increases dramatically depending on skill level with the champion. http://champion.gg/champion/Azir Even in plat+, there is a large gap, from 41% to 55%.

Really cause both lolking and op.gg are showing around 45% winrate plat+ so....ya

Sir Yamazuki8 votes

{quoted}

Really cause both lolking and op.gg are showing around 45% winrate plat+ so....ya

"Azir's winrate increases dramatically depending on skill level with the champion." Link I put shows his winrate depending on number of games a person has played the champion, Azir "mains" win 55% on average, while those who don't play Azir sit at 41%. More than half Azir's games are those who are new to Azir, so naturally, his winrate is going to suck.

Azir is not the only low win rate champion with a similar trend.

Not sure why you responded without reading what I said.

Zenthon Prime4 votes

However, he is by no means massively OP in the right hands. There are many champions, as you mentioned, that hit 55% winrates with their mains. Actually, most of them. Some hit 56% or 57%.

LankPants9 votes

However, he is by no means massively OP in the right hands.

He certainly is "massively OP" in the right hands. A champion doesn't reach the pick/ban rate Azir has in professional play without being incredibly overpowered in a high skill environment.

We're talking about Pro players here, their job is to win. Because it's literally their job to play the game they have more than enough time to test every champion who could feasibly be played in a role within scrims. If Azir wasn't overpowered in the right hands there's no way professional players would pick him with the consistency they do, instead they'd just pick whatever actually is OP.

Zenthon Prime1 votes

Read the winrates in the OP.

He is, to be blunt, just not OP. He isn't even in the top 5 most contested picks (oh, and none of those are getting nerfed either...) and he doesn't have one of the highest winrates. Basically, he's a pro FotM.

LankPants2 votes

He is, to be blunt, just not OP. He isn't even in the top 5 most contested picks (oh, and none of those are getting nerfed either...

He's no.2 most contested pick in competitive play at the moment, tied with Viktor just behind Ezreal.

Basically, he's a pro FotM.

Pro's don't have FotM champions in the same way as Solo que. They play what wins, not what they want to play, therefore they play the strongest champions which at the moment are Az/Vik/Ez/Jayce/Varus.

KorZod1 votes

Azir is nowhere close to the #2 contested pick right now. He's #11, sitting at a decent, but not crazy, 63% PB. Essentially the same as thresh. Significantly behind Graggy, Sivir, Alistar, Rumble, Rumble, and Ryze, (Champs who will likely benefit from the new AP itemization changes). Just because 2-3 pros can be REALLLLLY good with him doesn't make him unbearably OP for everybody else.

LankPants1 votes

I meant no.2 pick in mid lane, sorry.

Nausicäa 1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lord Yamazuki,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ath9Fzj7,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2015-07-09T04:29:45.542+0000)

"Azir's winrate increases dramatically depending on skill level with the champion." Link I put shows his winrate depending on number of games a person has played the champion, Azir "mains" win 55% on average, while those who don't play Azir sit at 41%. More than half Azir's games are those who are new to Azir, so naturally, his winrate is going to suck.

Azir is not the only low win rate champion with a similar trend.

Not sure why you responded without reading what I said.

Probably because your original post was poorly worded? You said his winrate increases with SKILL LEVEL, ie elo, when what you meant is that it increases with experience and games played with the champion.

Learn to articulate yourself better.

Sir Yamazuki2 votes

{quoted}

Probably because your original post was poorly worded? You said his winrate increases with SKILL LEVEL, ie elo, when what you meant is that it increases with experience and games played with the champion.

Learn to articulate yourself better.

I specifically stated skill level WITH THE CHAMPION, not skill level of THE PLAYER.

MohawkBird1 votes

Ok? The dedicated mains of any champion are likely to be sitting above a 50% win-rate.

Sir Yamazuki1 votes

{quoted}

Ok? The dedicated mains of any champion are likely to be sitting above a 50% win-rate.

The point was the 41 to 55 jump, that's 14%, a lot of champions who have over 50% with mains also already have over, or near 50% with non-dedicated players. There are also some who are actually under 50% even with mains, such as Mundo who is at 43% when played top.

MohawkBird1 votes

The only thing the 41 to 55 jump means is that he is a hard champ to get a grasp on. That doesn't make him OP at all. The gap means nothing but the skill floor/cap of a champion.

ChaoticPinecone4 votes

average winrate, yes. But if you go with winrate by # of plays, its 41% for 1-5 games played but 55% for over 125 games played. Take other high skillcap champions and the % doesnt have that wide of a gap - shaco goes from 45% to 56%. Rumble goes from 45% to 55%. Draven goes from 45% to 54%. Vlad goes from 47% to 56%. Anivia goes from 46% to 56%. This just means that Azir has a high skill floor.

MohawkBird1 votes

Exactly. The gap between the win-rates does not matter at all. All it does is show the skill floor of the champion. The guy is arguing that he is OP because he has a 55% win rate with his mains, meanwhile the champions you named go on or above 55% with their mains. He's pointing out a trend that is there for almost every champion.

Akumu8 votes

Ya these changes are total bullshit. Even if they are experimental you know hes gonna be trash after.

Worse yet ricklessabandon is the one doing the changes. Remember when he worked on the Syndra changes? Where is she now? Top 5 lowest winrates, never picked competitively and per primary combo is bugged for 6+ months, nice.

Nausicäa 5 votes

{quoted}

Ya these changes are total bullshit. Even if they are experimental you know hes gonna be trash after.

Worse yet ricklessabandon is the one doing the changes. Remember when he worked on the Syndra changes? Where is she now? Top 5 lowest winrates, never picked competitively and per primary combo is bugged for 6+ months, nice.

LOL....great, how much lower can Azirs win rate get after this.

Only Play Darius3 votes

{quoted}

Remember when he worked on the Syndra changes? Where is she now? Top 5 lowest winrates, never picked competitively

UOL Picks Syndra pretty often

JimmyNtheKudos1 votes

What UOL picks doesn't really factor in consideration...

Minrog1 votes

Yeah and they are losing games with her. Power of Evil is a Syndra main, and a beastly mid player with amazing mechanics. UoL still can't make Syndra work and she absolutely needs buffs. Solo queue schlub trying to make her work now, just hurting the team.

I'm not saying they put back the range or wonky hitbox on her stun, but she needs something.

Felixphaeton3 votes

He pigeon-holed Ahri into a DFG-bot assassin despite community backlash, and look where that went. Removed from the game because it was terrible for game health.

Nice to see he's demolishing another one of my favorite champs. This time he's digging a pigeon-hole straight to Azir's poor pigeon heart.

Nausicäa 1 votes

{quoted}

He pigeon-holed Ahri into a DFG-bot assassin despite community backlash, and look where that went. Removed from the game because it was terrible for game health.

Nice to see he's demolishing another one of my favorite champs. This time he's digging a pigeon-hole straight to Azir's poor pigeon heart.

Ya totally forgot about that disaster too. I wish they would stop getting him to work on champion changes.

ChargeItDownMid5 votes

[deleted]

Nausicäa 8 votes

{quoted}

You are looking at winrates when you should be looking at pick/ban rates. Pick/ban rates correlate much better with champion strength than winrates. Winrates are artificially deflated by higher pick/ban and are a terrible way to judge top champions because they always have high pick/ban rates.

Reksai higher PB 58.6 winrate Ali higher PB 52.6 Sivir higher PB 58.1 Kalista 55.6 Thresh 57.1

There goes your argument.

Abyssphere5 votes

{quoted}

Reksai higher PB 58.6 winrate Ali higher PB 52.6 Sivir higher PB 58.1 Kalista 55.6 Thresh 57.1

There goes your argument.

Rek'Sai and Kalista are getting nerfed tomorrow, Sivir was nerfed not long ago and I wouldn't be surprised if changes come to Alistar soon either. Thresh is Riot's golden boy, he won't be touched.

3TWarrior5 votes

lol, if ban rates were the real problem, they should look at blitz/thresh and other champs that make it where one INSTANCE of lag or luck or hit registry problems causes a gold lead or 4 v 5

Azir is banned often because he has a kit that can tackle everything (even though it's not overpowered) so he essentially has no weaknesses and no strengths but can fight anyone

OhthePiplup5 votes

"Its not Solely based on competitive! Remember that one time we balanced not to competitive? We dont but im sure we did at some point!" - riot

Anidan1 votes

A competitive game balancing around competitive play?

I'm not seeing a problem here.

OhthePiplup2 votes

because all the 99% that Isn't Lcs get screwed by these changes, and they dont play for competitive.

MohawkBird1 votes

A game balanced around 1% of the player base, while ignoring the 99% percent of casual or non-LCS players. I see a problem here.

Anidan1 votes

It's funny because every time something is shown to be broken in competitive play but not solo queue then nerfs are called for competitive/high level play.

I know the forums are not one entity but it's extremely difficult to take it seriously.

"Don't balance around competitive, most of the playerbase isn't at a professional level!" "Look at the state of competitive, they're so restricted because of lesser-skilled playerbase asking for nerfs!"

So what are they supposed to actually prioritize? A happy medium doesn't seem to be possible, because they've tried and received backlash. So if a middle ground can't be reached, I'd rather they balanced around the higher end of players if they're going to be a competitive game.

Silents4292 votes

But they don't decide it solely on competitive usage.

This misconception is annoying.

Vistha Kai2 votes

Personally I think Riot should revert all non-bug-fix changes to Azir and start from scratch.

First of all they failed big time changing his AA DPS mage identity to burst mage and shit went downhill from there.

LoLKiru2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Vistha Kai,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ath9Fzj7,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2015-07-09T11:46:39.883+0000)

Personally I think Riot should revert all non-bug-fix changes to Azir and start from scratch.

First of all they failed big time changing his AA DPS mage identity to burst mage and shit went downhill from there.

Personally I feel the simplest way to fix him (and I REALLY hope this is an iteration ricklessabandon tries)

Would be to cut the damage of his Q in half, slightly extend the AA range of his soldiers. There, Azir now has less upfront damage, but has an easier time dealing sustained damage due to higher soldier range.

You could also gut the scaling on his Q alternatively so it has to rely mostly on base damages.

KorZod1 votes

How to make Azir a better DPS mage: 1: Gut Q damage. Sorry, it has to happen 2: Increase AA range of soldiers, SLIGHT attack speed buff (Instead of 50% bonus attack speed at full CDR/new passive, make it like 75%) 3: make Q cooldown really low. All about repositioning soldiers to keep DPS up, not having 4 of them fly at a target to shiskabob him/her/it/yordle. Obviously, Q does triple damage to Teemo. That's it. Voila. You wont kill anybody with a surprise 3 soldier Q into one auto, but if somebody accidentally wanders into 2 of your soldiers, you should be able to combine Q's and constant autos to DPS the crap out of them as they try and walk away.

Gregor Gysi1 votes

Can't remember people complaining about the LeBlanc nerfs. Then again I am not a midlaner and can't understand the terror of LeBlanc. The only thing I know is that I'd rather play against a pre-nerf LeBlanc than against Azir no matter which patch. But whatever.

Nausicäa 2 votes

{quoted}

Can't remember people complaining about the LeBlanc nerfs. Then again I am not a midlaner and can't understand the terror of LeBlanc. The only thing I know is that I'd rather play against a pre-nerf LeBlanc than against Azir no matter which patch. But whatever.

Really could id much rather play agaisnt Azir than play against a champion with crazy mobility who insta kills your carries.

arkhammer1 votes

You can bet an AP Ez nerf is on its way, too, considering his recent performances.

Minrog1 votes

The thing that made AP Ezreal so strong was a bug involving item 3285 and the new item 3724 . It was fixed on the PBE like a day after the patch released but they didn't bother with a hotfix. The pro players saw the bug existed and realized AP Ezreal was like 4x more powerful than normal on that two item powerspike. That's why they were all taking summoner 11 mid.

Mandang01 votes

Rylai's is going to be a huge buff to him, which might be why Riot's looking at nerfs.

Nausicäa 1 votes

{quoted}

Rylai's is going to be a huge buff to him, which might be why Riot's looking at nerfs.

Actually its not. Rylais sounds op in theory on many champions. In practice Liandrys, Lichebane and Ludens provide way more DPS. All Ryalis does is give you a slow, which MANY ap mages already have.

Mandang01 votes

Most mages don't have the means to permaslow with Rylai's, nor do they have the sustained damage to benefit from it. Azir has both.

MohawkBird1 votes

Azir's soldier don't proc on his effects so I am pretty sure his W won't be slowing. The only thing that will be is Q,E,R and the Q already slows.

Mandang01 votes

Rylai's isn't an on-hit effect, it's a spell effect and is applied by his soldiers. All of his soldiers' attacks will apply 40% slow.

Ancestor0071 votes

People should learn to read. They said they are testing multiple stuff, so this will probably not remain like this.

KorZod1 votes

he's actually 10/16, for a whopping 39% win rate. Raise your Shurima's

AdrianHighlander1 votes

Stop pls nerf Azir im from 7.14 patch and Azir is now a supp. Riot nerfed w ...

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