So his ultimate is more than just magic damage + a weird steroid? **Sure the steroid works but it just doesn't make sense that this mythological undying demon only makes himself attack faster and makes his blade longer for his ultimate rather than fearing the shit out of people. **
Would be nice to have something interesting and unique on his kit that is more thematic
RiotMeddler37 votesYeah, Aatrox's ult is not as satisfying as an ultimate should be and that's something I'd like to see us address at some point. Two attack speed steroids on the same kit diminishes the amount either's felt, especially when one of them's variable (Olaf suffers from this problem too). Splitting the ability's power between a PBAOE nuke and steroid also leaves both feeling somewhat unsatisfying when balanced. To top it off, the increased attack range is certainly useful, but not sufficiently different to really shake up his play while it's active (compare it to Kayle's E for example).
A PBAOE fear would feel great for the Aatrox player by contrast and has some decent grounds for a thematic tie in. It's very much a tank ability though and putting that sort of ability on a character that also expects to have all of a fighter's strengths has been pretty problematic in the past on game health/balance grounds (see J4, Zac, Wukong at various times). I could see an argument for reworking Aatrox into a tank (first into the fight and all), personal feeling though is that a fighter's both what his theme's a better match for (he'll personally cut you down, rather than primarily setting up his team to do so). Fighter's also his current playstyle and where possible maintaining what people currently like about a champion's definitely something to strive for. Curious to hear other people's thoughts on tank versus fighter though just in case I'm making some poor assumptions here.
Also, just as a general note, this isn't any sort of indication of an Aatrox rework or upcoming changes to his ult's functionality. He's overall in an ok spot (balance might or might not need adjusting, that's just number tweaking though) and there are a lot of champions with a much greater need for ability overhauls. Thought this was an interesting discussion though and wanted to get involved in the conversation.
Quort3 votesHi Meddler! I love when you pop in like this! It's so great! :3
These are my thoughts on Aatrox's identity/theme:
I always thought of him [Aatrox] as an artisan of war and death. You can definitely see it in the way he handles his sword and especially his quotes, like: "This battle will be my masterpiece" or "Rage against the dying of the light" or "Violence is elegance." To me he comes across as a graceful and yet sadistic warrior.
He's not the kind of entity that would think: "I will empower my allies." Quite the contrary actually; Aatrox just wants people to fight, to bloody and bruise each other, and to lose themselves in hate and rage ("Some fight for honor, some fight for glory. It matters only that you fight."). That's why he could never be a Tank or someone that sets up for his allies. Honestly, from a thematic standpoint I can't imagine that he considers anyone to be his ally or friend (heck, just look at his Champion Info page... he's only get one recognized relationship and that's a rivalry with Tryndamere). Even his lore makes him seem indifferent to either side of a conflict, since he only desires the conflict itself: "Though these stories remember him as a savior in dark times, Aatrox's true legacy may be a world filled with conflict and strife."
I also consider him to be a graceful swordsman and that sense of grace doesn't really fit with the idea of a tank which tends to be either a large hulking force of nature (think Malphite, Maokai, Bristle[Sejauni], Cho'Gath, etc...), a heavily armored/shielded entity (think Leona, Braum, Nautilus, Blitzcrank, etc...), or a dead/nerve-less entity that can't feel pain and therefore has no problem with eating skillshots and other damaging abilities (think Singed, Sion, Zac). I can only think of a few exceptions like Shen, Vladimir, and Amumu (who really doesn't seem all that beefy).
However, a sense of style and grace is only fitting for Aatrox! An immortal blade-wielding demon-guy has had centuries to perfect his craft! His moves are effortless and sharp! When he uses Massacre he practically glides across the field cutting down foes! His fighting style is very smooth as well with different animations depending on whether it's a normal strike or a Blood Thirst/Blood Price strike. To me it's extremely satisfying to watch him attack.
Dreamspitter3 votesHe's not the kind of entity that would think: "I will empower my allies." Quite the contrary actually; Aatrox just wants people to fight, to bloody and bruise each other, and to lose themselves in hate and rage ("Some fight for honor, some fight for glory. It matters only that you fight."). That's why he could never be a Tank or someone that sets up for his allies. Honestly, from a thematic standpoint I can't imagine that he considers anyone to be his ally or friend (heck, just look at his Champion Info page... he's only get one recognized relationship and that's a rivalry with Tryndamere). Even his lore makes him seem indifferent to either side of a conflict, since he only desires the conflict itself: "Though these stories remember him as a savior in dark times, Aatrox's true legacy may be a world filled with conflict and strife."
#His LORE talks about him inspiring insane bloodthirst in others
ON RELEASE many had expected he would have some kind of ally buff
With but a few words, he urged the soldiers to fight to the last before throwing himself into battle. His presence inspired the desperate warriors. At first, they could only watch in awe as this unknown hero cleaved through their enemies, his body and blade moving in unison as if one being. Soon, the warriors found themselves imbued with a potent thirst for battle. They followed Aatrox into the fray, each fighting with the furious strength of ten until they had won a most unlikely victory.
But that never happened.
Why cant aatrox inspire his allies empowering them with the strength of ten as in his lore?
5G8Nri0B547 votesRegarding tank vs fighter, isnt Aatrox supposed to be a drain tank ala Warwick?
The one thing I know everyone can agree on at the very least is that the AoE magic damage is just...there.
Two attack speed steroids on the same kit diminishes the amount either's felt, especially when one of them's variable
I'd argue that unless the burst of AS is massive like Tristana, or if their AA animation feels good like MF, a lot of AS steroids arent that satisfying in general.
For instance, I literally only found out Wukong even has an AS steroid a month or two ago...and I played LoL for years. Then there is someone like Varus whose AA animation make it feel like hes barely shooting that much faster at all even if his Passive activates.
Kingsgrave3 votesRegarding tank vs fighter, isnt Aatrox supposed to be a drain tank ala Warwick?
The one thing I know everyone can agree on at the very least is that the AoE magic damage is just...there.
I'd argue that unless the burst of AS is massive like Tristana, or if their AA animation feels good like MF, a lot of AS steroids arent that satisfying in general.
For instance, I literally only found out Wukong even has an AS steroid a month or two ago...and I played LoL for years. Then there is someone like Varus whose AA animation make it feel like hes barely shooting that much faster at all even if his Passive activates.
I don't think Aatrox was intended to be a drain tank, its just how lifesteal tends to work on Melees that he became one.
He's supposed to be a fighter with more sustained damage and healing, which usually equates to drain tank for some reason.
Sneak Dog6 votesLifesteal just ignores X damage per second. It's a tanky stat. If your enemy can't even deal X damage per second, you're immortal. Lifesteal also benefits from your resistances, so tanks love it.
You're just telling the enemy to deal relevant damage to you or you're unstoppable. Can't just slowly you whittle away.
Kingsgrave2 votes[{quoted}](name=Sneak Dog,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=alR9fGRR,comment-id=000c000100000000,timestamp=2014-12-27T01:25:02.667+0000)
Lifesteal just ignores X damage per second. It's a tanky stat. If your enemy can't even deal X damage per second, you're immortal. Lifesteal also benefits from your resistances, so tanks love it.
You're just telling the enemy to deal relevant damage to you or you're unstoppable. Can't just slowly you whittle away.
I don't know of any tanks who actually build lifesteal efficiently.
The ones who buy Lifesteal are ADCs, Assassins and Light Bruisers.
The only tanky Bruisers I know that actually use Lifesteal are Olaf, Aatrox, Udyr and Warwick and I wouldn't consider any of them actually tanks. They don't have any real damage mitigation, non selfish peel or anything that someone like Maokai or Mundo have to make them actually "Tanks."
Lifesteal exists so that those who deal sustained DPS can survive burst, since they can't typically burst anyone down. Its not a tank stat since Tanks almost never deal sustained DPS.
KwangoTango1 votes[deleted]
5G8Nri0B546 votesThey can chill with the legion of AD Vel'koz's
WolfBV2 votesAP Aatrox jumps into 5 members of the enemy team, ults, then zhonyas(?) and waits for their team to jump in. I would guess that this usually gets every enemy below half health. idk.
Duke Anax2 votesAP Aatrox does somewhere upwards of 5000 damage in a teamfight.
He doesn't zhonya emediatelly though, he finishes off a carry or two that are under half health, before he dies and revives, then uses zhonya and watches his team wipe up.
RiotMeddler8 votesAatrox is intended to be a high sustain champion as is Warwick. This is somewhere where gaming terminology gets a bit messy though. 'Drain tanking' is generally used to describe characters in various games that keep themselves alive in fights over extended periods of time by stealing health from their opponents and that's definitely Aatrox. That's not to say that he's a good fit for the LoL definition of a 'tank' though. LoL tanks are generally champions with strong team initiation, inherent tankiness/rewards for building tanky, team utility/CC who take a long time to kill the enemy. Aatrox by contrast fits the fighter mold better, with his non damage effects being more selfish (Revive, gap closer), rewards for building damage when he can get away with it, kit suited to individually fighting enemies more than setting a group up for his team etc.
Additionally the definition of tank's further muddied by 'tanky' being used to describe a character that's hard to kill. Any champion with sufficient mitigation/health can be tanky for example, that doesn't necessarily mean they're a tank however. The term 'support' has somewhat similar problems, referring both to a position and to a class of champion that's often, but certainly not always, the type played in that position. In theory it'd probably be much clearer if we used different terms for those two classes as a result (e.g. 'Initiator' and 'Enhancer' - those are bad and misleading, but you get the idea), tank and support are pretty established terms though.
Kowe The Ewok2 votesSo what if he had an mechnic that increased his drain depending on the mount of champions near him? (Similiar to Irelia's CC reduction)
Maybe that would a good thing to start with.
Blade of Justic2 votesAatrox is intended to be a high sustain champion as is Warwick. This is somewhere where gaming terminology gets a bit messy though. 'Drain tanking' is generally used to describe characters in various games that keep themselves alive in fights over extended periods of time by stealing health from their opponents and that's definitely Aatrox. That's not to say that he's a good fit for the LoL definition of a 'tank' though. LoL tanks are generally champions with strong team initiation, inherent tankiness/rewards for building tanky, team utility/CC who take a long time to kill the enemy. Aatrox by contrast fits the fighter mold better, with his non damage effects being more selfish (Revive, gap closer), rewards for building damage when he can get away with it, kit suited to individually fighting enemies more than setting a group up for his team etc.
Additionally the definition of tank's further muddied by 'tanky' being used to describe a character that's hard to kill. Any champion with sufficient mitigation/health can be tanky for example, that doesn't necessarily mean they're a tank however. The term 'support' has somewhat similar problems, referring both to a position and to a class of champion that's often, but certainly not always, the type played in that position. In theory it'd probably be much clearer if we used different terms for those two classes as a result (e.g. 'Initiator' and 'Enhancer' - those are bad and misleading, but you get the idea), tank and support are pretty established terms though.
At first, I was going to say "This player knows whats up. Riot, hire this guy!"
Then I realized that Riot DID hire you.
Now I just feel like an A#$.
ExecutorDill3 votesYeah, Aatrox's ult is not as satisfying as an ultimate should be and that's something I'd like to see us address at some point. Two attack speed steroids on the same kit diminishes the amount either's felt, especially when one of them's variable (Olaf suffers from this problem too). Splitting the ability's power between a PBAOE nuke and steroid also leaves both feeling somewhat unsatisfying when balanced. To top it off, the increased attack range is certainly useful, but not sufficiently different to really shake up his play while it's active (compare it to Kayle's E for example).
A PBAOE fear would feel great for the Aatrox player by contrast and has some decent grounds for a thematic tie in. It's very much a tank ability though and putting that sort of ability on a character that also expects to have all of a fighter's strengths has been pretty problematic in the past on game health/balance grounds (see J4, Zac, Wukong at various times). I could see an argument for reworking Aatrox into a tank (first into the fight and all), personal feeling though is that a fighter's both what his theme's a better match for (he'll personally cut you down, rather than primarily setting up his team to do so). Fighter's also his current playstyle and where possible maintaining what people currently like about a champion's definitely something to strive for. Curious to hear other people's thoughts on tank versus fighter though just in case I'm making some poor assumptions here.
Also, just as a general note, this isn't any sort of indication of an Aatrox rework or upcoming changes to his ult's functionality. He's overall in an ok spot (balance might or might not need adjusting, that's just number tweaking though) and there are a lot of champions with a much greater need for ability overhauls. Thought this was an interesting discussion though and wanted to get involved in the conversation.
And we are glad you "meddled" into this discussion :) out of the like 20+ discussions I've posted over the past few months I would like if at least 1 red care to look at my thoughts :(
Not to stray off topic but can you shed some light on the current place of 
. How well do you find he delivers on his ore fantasy? As yo said, "He'll personally cut you down" meaning Aatrox I more a Fighter. How is shen any different... He seems more neutral in his lore and more of a dictator than hero. Also why a Tank Ninja as the first ninja, what led to this? Would'nt switching his role to a fighter completely eradicate the problems Rito faced when nerfing him? Don't get me wrong... I love the utility of shen's ultimate but from what I have read he seems more like to save the life of someone only if it tips the scales into balance
RiotMeddler8 votesShen's an interesting one. There's definitely some mismatch between his theme and his gameplay. Mechanically he's a health stacking tank who gradually grinds you down, bit of a contrast to his image as a 'traditional' looking ninja and the expectations of speed, damage, stealth, assassination etc that go with it. We'd aim to avoid such a mismatch if making him today, he's got an established playstyle and players though so it's not necessarily appropriate to try and change that at this point. There are also some elements to him that are pretty ninja like as well to be fair, the sudden appearance from out of nowhere with the ult and the 'surprise, caught you off guard as I went past' of his E.
I can't speak with certainty as to how the mismatch between his theme and gameplay came about, that was well before my time at Riot. Normally I'd ask a colleague who's been here a while, I'm out of town visiting family at the moment however. At a guess though it was probably a combination of a desire to ensure the three ninjas all coming out close together (with a month and a half of each other) were sufficiently different (with Akali doing a lot of the 'standard' ninja stuff) and kit development that showed a really promising, fun tank direction in playtesting.
In terms of fixing him at this point I'd be really hesitant to just try and make him into a fighter, that'd require we stripped off an awful lot of what makes Shen Shen. I'm also more inclined to put the blame for the balance problems he's had on the lack of counterplay the damaging parts of his kit have. Shen's Q's guaranteed ranged damage, without significant cost or CD in a 1v1, on a tanky, somewhat mobile champ. His passive, especially against enemies unable to quickly break his Feint Shield, can be another source of low interaction damage. Addressing those issues might allow us to put power into other parts of his kit, get him into a better spot (note though, this is just speculation on my part, would need to do some testing to figure out if this is a direction that actually has realizable merit).
Kingsgrave2 votesShen's an interesting one. There's definitely some mismatch between his theme and his gameplay. Mechanically he's a health stacking tank who gradually grinds you down, bit of a contrast to his image as a 'traditional' looking ninja and the expectations of speed, damage, stealth, assassination etc that go with it. We'd aim to avoid such a mismatch if making him today, he's got an established playstyle and players though so it's not necessarily appropriate to try and change that at this point. There are also some elements to him that are pretty ninja like as well to be fair, the sudden appearance from out of nowhere with the ult and the 'surprise, caught you off guard as I went past' of his E.
I can't speak with certainty as to how the mismatch between his theme and gameplay came about, that was well before my time at Riot. Normally I'd ask a colleague who's been here a while, I'm out of town visiting family at the moment however. At a guess though it was probably a combination of a desire to ensure the three ninjas all coming out close together (with a month and a half of each other) were sufficiently different (with Akali doing a lot of the 'standard' ninja stuff) and kit development that showed a really promising, fun tank direction in playtesting.
In terms of fixing him at this point I'd be really hesitant to just try and make him into a fighter, that'd require we stripped off an awful lot of what makes Shen Shen. I'm also more inclined to put the blame for the balance problems he's had on the lack of counterplay the damaging parts of his kit have. Shen's Q's guaranteed ranged damage, without significant cost or CD in a 1v1, on a tanky, somewhat mobile champ. His passive, especially against enemies unable to quickly break his Feint Shield, can be another source of low interaction damage. Addressing those issues might allow us to put power into other parts of his kit, get him into a better spot (note though, this is just speculation on my part, would need to do some testing to figure out if this is a direction that actually has realizable merit).
Akali is a Fighter/Assassin, Kennen is a Mage/Assasssin, what if you guys made Shen a Tank/Assassin instead of a Tank/Fighter?
RiotMeddler8 votesWhile I can see the appeal as the Shen player I don't feel tank/assassin's an appropriate combination for the game. Tanks go straight into a fight, have natural survivability, sustained damage patterns, team utility/CC and are usually not attractive targets to try and take down if you've got any better options. Assassins by contrast tend to flank, have extremely high target selection and burst, low team utility, lack constant survivability (instead relying on other tools like mobility, untargetability, stealth etc) and are usually great targets to kill if you can focus them. Combining those two categories risks creating very tanky, mobile champions with high CC/utility that set up their own kills, are extremely hard to take down and will happily chew through an entire team. When that goes wrong you get things like release Xin Zhao. When balanced you get a character that's ok at a lot of things, lacks clear strengths or weaknesses and isn't well distinguished from other similar champions (the fighter problem basically). As per previous posts there's certainly an argument Shen could be a fighter, that'd require some very large changes to who he is and how he plays though.
Cuix5 votesI think there are ways to do a tank/assassin, namely by focusing on only some strengths of each. For instance, the high utility of a tank can pair really well with the "selectively engage" play-pattern of an assassin, and raw burst damage isn't really necessary so long as a target can be "taken out" in some way. Assassins like Shaco and Zed are all about turning fights into a 4v5, and that can be done without actually killing the target, such as with CC or debuffs.
RiotMeddler6 votesAh, right, I see where you're coming from now. A tank that's able to remove a target from the fight for a period of time, without killing them or setting them up to be killed (so not a pick tank like Nautilus or Skarner) is something I'd agree's got potential as a concept (and is one of the options we've talked about exploring for a future tank at some point). Would be hesitant about putting that sort of effect on a kit with high mobility though - sort of thing that decides fights so can't be too accessible/reliable.
How would you see that concept pairing with Shen out of curiosity? Must admit ninja's not the first theme that leaps out with that gameplay (binding chains, banishment, devouring a target whole etc are the sort of things that come to mind for me).
5G8Nri0B543 votesWell considering the current Shen has an ability called Feint where in-game it...produces a damage absorbing shield...
You can always make him thematically an "evade tank" without actually making him one. Visually his abilities show that he isn't tanky at all, but rather he dodges everything coming his way like Neo. He can even have a dodge animation occasionally if he dodges something that will cross a certain threshold of damage...he'd be the exact same Shen complete with...the ability to tackle people and taunt them...
However...if you decided to make a second ninja-tank to avoid pissing off Shen fans, it's really not that hard. Afterall, many people have been asking you guys to bring us a THIEF CHAMPION, and while thieves and ninjas aren't the same thing, thematically they do have a lot in common.
So how about this then? A thieving ninja whose role is to tank.
-his tankiness comes from his ability to steal pieces of armour and weapons (silence?) from his opponent -his initiation will be liberal use of neorotoxin, smoke bombs, or anything else that messes up the enemy confusion -but despite that, he is inherently squishy for a tank unless he nabs some pieces of metal to hide under
He's less of a ninja-tank in the end and more of a tricky stealthy-tank though...though it may come a bit close to Trundle's territory with that armour stealing mechanic.
Cuix2 votesActually, I had this idea back when folks were talking about possible Diana changes to clarify her role. On her, it was a "self + target enemy get big speedboost, enemy gets feared, both run from fight, Diana attempts to repeat" disruption that had some assassin feel but (hopefully) allowing a tanky build to not be toxic. As for Shen, though...
... Okay, been sitting here for a while now typing out different ideas, but they all end up falling flat. The reason: His ult is fixed. His ult is too much a part of him, and a really cool tank/assassin play pattern would end up probably revolving around a really cool ult. So, without being able to alter that, all I can think of is chain-taunting an opponent but that's basically an "is your team present and coordinated" check with either death or annoyance as the outcome. Guh.
Edit: I found that old Diana post, in case anyone's curious.
Very Cash Money2 votesI think maybe an ultimate that "kidnaps" the target! Sort of like a duel where both targets teleport straight to another location for a period of time becoming immune to all damage except each others.(so you don't die of towers etc)
This could make a meaningful tradeoff. A tank for a carry, a tank for a tank. This also makes it hard for the champion to snowball out of controll and fall completely behind. If the shen is super fed then it would be bad to trade him for a mediocre jinx. Where if jinx is super fed and shen is trash then he can still do some good for the team.
This obviously have some problems but i still think it would fit the ninjatheme, to kidnap a target etc. The only thing i fear is that this duel thing might fit too much on another champ. Sry i am late to the discussion :i
ExecutorDill2 votesWhile I can see the appeal as the Shen player I don't feel tank/assassin's an appropriate combination for the game. Tanks go straight into a fight, have natural survivability, sustained damage patterns, team utility/CC and are usually not attractive targets to try and take down if you've got any better options. Assassins by contrast tend to flank, have extremely high target selection and burst, low team utility, lack constant survivability (instead relying on other tools like mobility, untargetability, stealth etc) and are usually great targets to kill if you can focus them. Combining those two categories risks creating very tanky, mobile champions with high CC/utility that set up their own kills, are extremely hard to take down and will happily chew through an entire team. When that goes wrong you get things like release Xin Zhao. When balanced you get a character that's ok at a lot of things, lacks clear strengths or weaknesses and isn't well distinguished from other similar champions (the fighter problem basically). As per previous posts there's certainly an argument Shen could be a fighter, that'd require some very large changes to who he is and how he plays though.
And I don't feel ADC/TANK is appropriate concept for the game either but somehow 
is a thing. That was one combination I thought of years ago but never thought riot would take that direction when they seem so hellbent at balancing a game. I could lose against a champion 50+ times and try all sorts of advantages against them before I cry to the boards and riot about nerfs! I only accurately learned how to survive an Irelia while playing shen toplane, and the answer was simple.... AVOID THE TRUE DAMAGE ACTIVE and it was gold. What does gets me angry is simple champions that are Easy to go OP with like Ryze or Yi, but that's another discussion :)
kitcat3009 votesI think Lee sin fits the description of a tank/assassin, and everyone just loooooves him.
ChimeiTekinaNasu2 votesA PBAOE fear would feel great for the Aatrox player by contrast and has some decent grounds for a thematic tie in.
mmm. Drawing a blank here. PBAOE?? Okay. AoE=Area of Effect. PB?? I don't know what that stands for. I'm bad with abbreviations, cause I don't usually abbreviate much. So what's the PB part stand for??
It's very much a tank ability though and putting that sort of ability on a character that also expects to have all of a fighter's strengths has been pretty problematic in the past on game health/balance grounds (see J4, Zac, Wukong at various times). I could see an argument for reworking Aatrox into a tank (first into the fight and all), personal feeling though is that a fighter's both what his theme's a better match for (he'll personally cut you down, rather than primarily setting up his team to do so). Fighter's also his current playstyle and where possible maintaining what people currently like about a champion's definitely something to strive for. Curious to hear other people's thoughts on tank versus fighter though just in case I'm making some poor assumptions here.
I'd say you're on the tank vs fighter thing.
P.S. Please no ult fear. I strongly don't want Aatrox/Fiddle ult wombo combos. Like please no. Top Fiora, Jungle Aatrox (with new ult fear), mid Fiddles, Leona, and some AoE-like ult adc (Twitch with Runaan's, Jinx, Ezreal). Just please no. His ult can be anything EXCEPT an AoE fear.....like omg. Worst...idea...ever, and so broken with the right team comps. Go ahead. Take some time to think about it. What team comps would you put Aatrox on if his ult was AoE fear. Too...terrifying.
Piriprimey2 votesPB stands for point blank, which means that the casting champion is automatically the center of the AoE (so it's not targeted in any way).
ChimeiTekinaNasu2 votesOh, okay. Thanks.
ill be ur daddy1 votesPlease dont turn him into a tank. His kit should be that of a fighter. I have worked too hard to fall in love with the champ and he is in an ok spot. You could slightly buff his ult by making his bloodwell fill up at a certain rate during the ult. But please dont rework the champ into a tank. I think alot of aatrox mains would agree on that.
XinZhao2WinNhao1 votesPlease dont turn him into a tank. His kit should be that of a fighter. I have worked too hard to fall in love with the champ and he is in an ok spot. You could slightly buff his ult by making his bloodwell fill up at a certain rate during the ult. But please dont rework the champ into a tank. I think alot of aatrox mains would agree on that.
I'm not an aatrox main, but I typically agree with not changing the core concept of a champion during a rework. LIke if a champ is a fighter, let him stay a fighter.I said that about Shaco before too, but I think that's my opinion. Tell me if you guys agree/disagree
KenpachiKenshin2 votes**About Aatrox: **
Identity wise, I think Aatrox fits the fighter category.
He's this dude that says "Hey I'm strong and sturdy. Fight me" (Fighter) and not "Hit me I don't care but if I smack you you're not gonna feel it" (Tank).
About his Kit, I think his ult is in a weird spot. It's strong but the strength is invisible.
About Shen:
I think his visuals indicate an assassin and his gameplay indicates a tank. His kit has support traits (He basically fits the Braum category in terms of kit). And Lore indicates someone who's supposed to be able to take on Zed. So he's all over the place.
What do tanks do? Not care about your damage and disrupt you with their CC. (he kinda poorly does this)
What do assassins do? Provide single target threat and tricks to stay alive. (he doesn't do this)
What do supports do? Heal, shield, buff, debuff, disrupt. (he kinda poorly does this)
What do fighters do? Stay on you. Fight you. (he tries to do this)
If you changed his visuals to make him more heavily armed and armoured he could get away with being a fighter (that's what I think he should be tbh now that his tank role has soaked into the community). Something like a ninja/samurai crossover in terms of visuals.
So, what do you think?
Eeyore2 votesI could see an argument for reworking Aatrox into a tank (first into the fight and all), personal feeling though is that a fighter's both what his theme's a better match for (he'll personally cut you down, rather than primarily setting up his team to do so).
Ummm... his lore is literally about him setting up his team to mow people down (both his own and Tryndamere's, and Ezreal's diary). Like... this is the biggest issue I have with Aatrox. His lore literally describes him as a commander who has the power to inspire fearlessness and undying rage into his allies, yet his kit is just a cookie-cutter fighter with no interaction with his allies. If he needs to be a tank to actually deliver his fantasy of a commander who defies the will of the valkyrie - I'm all for it. Heck, I implore you.
His kit and quotes are some guy who loves killing people; his lore and model (crown-horns and banner-wings) are about a commander. It's like you fused two different champions during his development. Both of which are good, mind, but... what happened there?
Grand Eleven2 votesAatrox is a hot mess consistency wise and the worst champion from the thematics/vision department in the game. His Kit, lore, and looks are three different ideas that got manwiched together and to me represent a low point in Champion releases. I cannot express enough what a giant ball of disappointment Aatrox is.
Lore that implies a support champion. Kit that is a generic fighter. Visual that is 100% generic class IV demon from D&D with implied sentient/special sword (his dance even makes it move)
Oh, and the "Generic demon" looks came on the heels of Riot shooting down a collection of posts on GD gaining momentum about how they will not release a scythe champion because it was too generic... then they give us the most uninspired mess of ideas they've ever released. It would have been an improvement if they brushed off the Zyra/Syndra base model and made Aatrox a scantily clad female and at least gave me some eye candy to look at.
Zamiake2 votesYes but do i need to say it? Fighter Attrox isnt stable or viable. Matter of fact its a very bad idea in general.
http://i.imgur.com/z2D4oMJ.jpg
Here is a pure tank build. If you go into the full match history option and see the actual build he has it wasnt the best possible build for what he was facing. However He did have 4646 Hp and dieing in 4.14 seconds. A pure fighter attrox would have in the ball park of 2k - 3k maybe hp....
So you are saying an attrox with half that hp should be "...in an ok spot..." is total crook. So let me get this straight attrox should be able to ~succesfully enter a team fight with team against the enemy team ~without getting instantly focused and passive popped within 2.09 seconds (half the hp half the time if not less) ~revive before his teammates meet the same fate in even less time ~And magically be able to sweep up the team that nuked the hell out of him and his team? No
The answer to all those is just no. Attrox IS NOT A FIGHTER. Attrox is a glorified high sustain tank that has the whole devlopment team thinking he is a fighter because they intended him to be that way. In reality he IS better suited as a tank in practice; NOT IN THEORY. Look at almost every normal match he is in. Most of his items is one major attack item like Hydra then all tank items. Its his only viable tactic because he is instantly focused as a pure fighter because everyone knows a pure fighter attrox cant survive being focused for a second if they all drop a skill on him
Also a fighter attrox gets crushed by tryn once he starts stacking up crit chance.
Why doesnt Attrox get crit chance when his passive is up?
Like 0.4% crit chance per point of blood whatever passive.
Tryn easily phases through attrox terrible life steal in mid - late game because of crits. Also he can easily pop his passive in 2-3 swings.
No amount of attack speed or life steal is going to save a fighter attrox against a tryn shelling out 1.5k crits ON EVERY HIT. Just look at my ranked tryn stats. I am able to hit 1.5k crits and with enough crit chance thats every swing and you are going to feel it when i pop my ult and you dont run away screaming. Specially if you are squishy like a fighter attrox. A simple math problem say some how some one got 10k hp. 10/1.5=6.667~
that is roughly 7 attacks. A tryn with 2.5 (capped atk speed) with 1.5k crits would kill some one with 10k hp in roughly
7\2.5=2.8. So in 3 seconds i could nuke 10k in true damage. Well if they have armor yes that will help but you sare seeing this right?
No matter what tryn is gonna nuke fighter attrox
Look at my ranked tryn matchs. Tryn out classes attrox on ALL LEVELS. So seriously if attrox has like 2 - 3 k hp If i wanted to i could kill him in 2 hits. Roughly 1 second on max attack speed. Meaning that attrox wont have time to dps me down. So when he revives i'll kill him in .5 seconds or less
Attrox i rarely see in ranked or in normals he isnt viable and was a waste of good IP he needs a rework just as much as other champions.
Meep Man10 votesWhy not just nerf the damage, slightly nerf the attack speed, and make it remove any crowd control on himself and nearby allies. He is supposed to make his allies be driven out of the state of defeat so why not make him do just that?
KMannnnn15 votesThat's an interesting idea. The two things I take issue with are that A) AoE cleanse could be either crazy strong or pathetically useless, depending on how your team is positioned and B) AoE cleanse seems like a very support-type thing, and Aatrox's deal was that he was just killing people so dang well that others gained the nerve to join back into the fight. Hardly a support-y thing to do.
Eeyore2 votes"Passive: Every time he scores a kill nearby allies gain something?"
KMannnnn14 votesAttack range and attack speed work perfectly within his kit, hardly a weird steroid. That said, I would love if it had a little pull in effect like diana's E, or some other form of CC.
Or an AoE buff, which would definitely be more thematic, but to balance it, they would probably have to lower his dueling power as compensation, because AoE buffs can be pretty crazy strong.
EDIT: I would also love if it filled up his bloodwell, just cause if you wait to activate it until after your passive goes off, you still have super low attack speed.
AHeroNamedHawke4 votesI think an AoE fear + bonus hp in exhange for the AS and a nerf to his revive cooldown would be an interesting change
His passive is still a big reason why he cant be buffed and should be hit first
The Red Warden4 votesThe fear would hurt him more than anything though, since now the melee bruiser has people raunning out of his range. An aoe taunt while easily able to be OP fits perfectly in that it encourages mass amounts of violence not disrupting it.
Samflash35 votesBut then he'd be Galio.
Blade of Justic4 votesAre we trying to nerf Aatrox here?
Because away from you isn't where you want enemies to go when you're a melee champ.
Manwad3 votesGetting some sort of missing HP damage on his autos would work perfectly.
AccountaBilabudy2 votesHis ult should be an AoE lifedrain. Jumps into enemy team, presses R, some kind of tentacles sprout out of him and attach to all enemy players in* x* range (can look like a Morg ult). the tentacles leech life from enemies its attached to, giving life to Aatrox and maybe slowing all enemies.
That way, he maintains his fighter status but becomes "tanky" because of massive life drain.
JadeKnightblazer1 votesHis ult should be an AoE lifedrain. Jumps into enemy team, presses R, some kind of tentacles sprout out of him and attach to all enemy players in* x* range (can look like a Morg ult). the tentacles leech life from enemies its attached to, giving life to Aatrox and maybe slowing all enemies.
That way, he maintains his fighter status but becomes "tanky" because of massive life drain.
Based on Aatrox's Animated Splash screen and theme... http://st.elohell.net/public/chill/9194a4bb51d7c81b24776777ad89a269.gif
I thought his Ultimate was going to look / feel simular to this... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5R7P5Q36heU#t=98
Eeyore3 votesI imagined he'd at least have one ability like that.
"Aatrox willing ends his own life for the chance to be reborn, entering stasis and allowing his blade to becomes ravenous: damaging and harshly slowing surrounding enemies. After 3 seconds, Aatrox reclaims his sword, restoring Aatrox to full health and causing surrounding enemies to turn and flee for a short duration. The blade can be destroyed to prevent Aatrox's rebirth, which requires it to be attacked 5 / 7 / 10 times by enemy champions." (Supernova from Dota2)
"Aatrox's sword becomes ravenous. For the next 15 seconds, Aatrox gains bonus attack range and 30% life steal. Meanwhile, tendrils that originate from his blade will attack all enemies within 575 units: dealing (X% AD) damage on each hit and applying life steal. Enemies can only be attacked by a single tendril at any one time."
AccountaBilabudy2 votesBased on Aatrox's Animated Splash screen and theme... http://st.elohell.net/public/chill/9194a4bb51d7c81b24776777ad89a269.gif
I thought his Ultimate was going to look / feel simular to this... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5R7P5Q36heU#t=98
yes.
can be build if you need sustain, but It's expensive, so the majority of Shen players opt for a 
.
