Please focus the tank

Clint Orris·Jun 29, 2016·37 votes·2,078 views

If he dives really far from his teammates. Don't be stupid and blow all of your ulties on it but at least damage him enough so that the enemy will be at a disadvantage. Tanks are not nearly as tanky as they used to be.

61 Comments

WolfessJun 29, 201617 votes

can confirm tanks are not nearly as tanky as before.

was playing/practicing shen because i missed old shen and I have a sunfire, randuins, and thornmail, 300+ armor and 4k+ hp... and i'm still getting chunked.

RalanrJun 29, 201612 votes

We kinda traded a lot of tankiness for some damage that I don't think a lot of tanks wanted.

Though now everyone needs damage to be relevant it seems like.

MelledoneusJun 29, 201610 votes

In my opinion the reason why everyone needs damage now is because if you don't have damage, you're not a threat. The ADC will shred you and you can't do anything about it.

However, if you DO have damage, the ADC will fear you and you can be a legitimate threat to them. Until damage is dropped across the board, tanks will never be tanks again.

RalanrJun 29, 20163 votes

That's pretty accurate actually. Damage seems to be the only way to make yourself a threat.

Maybe in the tank rework they will fix this. Because while tanks are hitting hard, they do need enough damage to actually farm and take towers (top and jungle tanks especially). Otherwise we'd just push all tanks into the support role.

And the last thing I want is for tanks to only be viable I'm support (or just not being viable).

MelledoneusJun 29, 20165 votes

I think sunfire cape fixes a big issue of waveclear for tanks.

But I feel like the best way to make tanks relevant is to introduce more items that punish carries for focusing them. Thornmail used to be one such item, and I think items that allow the tank to be a significant threat without having to deal much damage would be the way to accomplish it. Tanks need to be the class that become harder and harder to kill for most carries, and carries late game need their own team to peel for them to keep the tank away from them. Should the tank actually reach the carry, they should be rewarded with the opportunity to debilitate and partially nullify their ability to deal damage so that the rest of their team can safely engage and use that opening to fight.

The case right now? The tank manages to get to the carry somehow. The carry stands there and lifesteals off the tank while they kite them. The tank can slow the carry, but dashes let the carry get out of range easily. Meanwhile, a tank builds a damage item and jumps on the carry, acting like a psuedo-assassin bruiser that the carry has to blow a summoner spell for or dies. Then, the rest of the tank's team drops down and the whole fight becomes a stat check between two teams.

RalanrJun 29, 20162 votes

I'm not sure on that because carries are supposed to counter tanks. Dps (which most ADCs are) champions are meant to counter tanks because they keep chipping away at their defenses before they can come back. Tanks counter burst because theoretically their defenses are up for every combo.

And sunfire is great if you're up against an AD top laner. If you're stuck with an AP top laner then you can't exactly rush your waveclear item (which makes me hate AP top laners and wish there was an MR variant of sunfire cape).

MelledoneusJun 29, 20162 votes

On one end, you're right that carries counter tanks. But that's late game. And late game, tanks and juggernauts are the only ones who can reliably soak damage up from a carry unless it's Bruce Vayne herself. Before late game, however, tanks always remain a threat because of their ability to either lock down or debilitate carries, not straight up kill them. Tanks counter burst intuitively at every stage of the game, because high defenses, larger health pools, and debilitating abilities screw over assassins. But carries are like assassins in that they are squishy and deal damage, BUT are supposed to take a while to deal the damage. Which is why I hate Graves.

Also, I agree. Sunfire is my go-to item for saying "haha I have waveclear AND tankiness now, I dare you to fight me." Especially against squishy top laners like Fiora or Riven, whose health pools are more affected by Immolate's passive, Sunfire is amazing. Also, screw AP matchups. Rumble, Ryze, Vlad, Lulu... I hate them all. They don't let you farm, and if you try to fight them they will outdamage you, and you can't run from them. Whenever I see one of those I actually consider lane swapping with my mid laner so they can have a field day top lane while the enemy Talon cries at how tanky I am.

RalanrJun 29, 20163 votes

The new Ryze is going to be a pain in the ass to fight top.

On the upside, I need more AP top laners in my pool and Ryze's new ult makes me really interested. So far all I have is Ekko for an AP top laner.

Bruiser Ekko.

MelledoneusJun 29, 20164 votes

Bruiser Ekko.

I'm going to look the other way this time.

Regardless, the new Ryze looks interesting. He actually has defined windows of power and he looks nice and shiny. I want to try him out when I get back.

RalanrJun 29, 20162 votes

Sometimes my team already has a tank but not enough magic damage.

And sometimes I'm mid. I need contingencies Mel!

MelledoneusJun 29, 20162 votes

AP for top?

Vladimir Maokai Malphite

AP for mid?

Viktor Karthus Kassadin

Those are my general picks.

RalanrJun 29, 20163 votes

I hate Vlad, picking another tank when my team already has one (rare, but I happens) is making my team lose out on a damage threat.

I like all three of those champions as well. I'm still learning Vik, Karthus doesn't do well vs assassins when I play him (which are too common in mid) and I should play Kassadin more.

And Ekko (not ignoring his cancerous tank build) is kinda fun at full AP. Killing someone with his E is really satisfying, especially if it's the third it.

MelledoneusJun 29, 20163 votes

Vlad is really good if you play him right. He was the first mage I fell in love with.

Usually when I'm top, my team doesn't have a reliable tank. They have maybe a tanky support and an assassin jungler, but then they're like "mid wtf went AD, we need magic damage now." And guess what kind of AoE damage both Maokai and Malphite do?

Viktor is in a horrible state right now, they delayed his burst damage, which is stupid and discourages me from playing him these days.

Karthus is THE BEST. You can farm and harass assassins at the same time, even the likes of Zed fear you in lane. Did Zed jump on you with W? Drop your W, turn on E, and slowly walk away while dodging the shurikens. You just won the trade. Is he walking away? Turn off E and barrage him with Q. Punish the bastard for the next 15 seconds. Karthus is great, especially when you coordinate with your jungler to get ahead of the enemy laner and rush that RoA.

Kassadin is a huge letdown. Unless you're against a mage, you're kind of obsolete. AD assassins can easily outdamage him, but if you play smart and starve them of kills you outscale them. Late game his W with Lich Bane Proc wreaks havoc upon squishies, nearly one shotting them.

RalanrJun 29, 20162 votes

I tend to spam my Q so much on Karthus that I run out of mana.

I'm not joking. I am an ability spammer.

MelledoneusJun 29, 20162 votes

Well, you do spam Q, but you have to tactically place it. Try to either place it to single out a minion that's low or land it on the enemy laner alone. A few crit-Qs should leave the enemy zoned from farm and needing to back, especially since the looming threat of your 6 is a reality. If they back, free farm, push that wave with your E and Q, back and get that RoA. Then, wreak havoc.

RalanrJun 29, 20162 votes

So I shouldn't rush hourglass vs Zed or Yas?

Cause whenever I play Karthus, I always fight one of them.

MelledoneusJun 29, 20162 votes

Against Zed, focus on farming and watch him closely. If he doesn't land any shurikens on you, you win the lane by default.

Against Yasuo, stay a bit back. If he dashes towards you, walk towards you turret. This will discourage him from jumping on you. When he's dashing away, send an auto after him. Now you can destroy him.

As for rushing Zhonya's: don't unless you messed up big time. If you managed to avoid feeding them, it's better to get more HP and mana than build armor for such a small health pool. Zhonya's can give about 20-30% increased damage reduction, which is not as much as getting a full 700+ HP from an item, as well as a passive that gives you health when you cast abilities. RoA is such a good item on Karthus, especially now. Don't delay it, ever.

RalanrJun 29, 20162 votes

Hmm. I'll keep that in mind.

Personally my favorite build with Karthus is RoD, archangels staff, Deathcap and then fill as needed.

The amount of AP I get is stupid.

MelledoneusJun 29, 20163 votes

Pshh.

You should see my URF build. Every 30 seconds hell rains from the sky.

RalanrJun 29, 20163 votes

Urf Karthus is hilarious. His Q is like a mine that keeps going off!

MelledoneusJun 29, 20162 votes

URF Karthus left me feeling amazing.

On a side note, usually when I play Karthus the enemy team decides to converge on my lane as 4 people and attempt to push my turret in. It's because I hold my turret so damn well that they have to overwhelm me to pull it off, and even then sometimes it's a challenge for them.

Such is the power of Karthus.

RalanrJun 29, 20162 votes

That's my Sion top experience most of the time.

Course this means my lane is the last to fall in worst case scenarios.

MelledoneusJun 29, 20166 votes

That's true. Sion is really good at scaring the shit out of enemy laners. When I play Sion they fear me. Even Fiora fears me. I've had tier 5 Fioras FLASH out of my Q because they remember the first 3 minutes of laning very, very well...

Similarly, the enemy Zed comes into lane like "Karthus? Free win."

10 minutes later, the enemy team is babysitting the 0/2 AD assassin.

RalanrJun 29, 20163 votes

It's always fun to make an assassin afraid of you.

MelledoneusJun 30, 20163 votes

Zed "Embrace the shadow-" Karthus "Darkness envelops you..." Zed "I... I..." runs off crying

YumaS2AstralJun 30, 20162 votes

{quoted}

I think sunfire cape fixes a big issue of waveclear for tanks.

But I feel like the best way to make tanks relevant is to introduce more items that punish carries for focusing them. Thornmail used to be one such item, and I think items that allow the tank to be a significant threat without having to deal much damage would be the way to accomplish it.

The problem is that they need to introduce items for tanks that lets them become tankier and be a threat but without the possiblity of allowing those items to be abused by fighters and assassins. Almost everytime tanks are powerful on their own, abominations like, for example, the most recent Tank Ekko and Tank Fizz appear and dominate.

I agree that Thornmail should be buffed. Making this item require armor stacking to be effective is a step on the right direction to make this item viable but not abusable by non-tanks. However, the scaling currently is too low to make this item worth using.

GayFluffyUnicornJun 29, 20161 votes

Made the mistake to play a real tank for once again (malph). Can't push or take a tower at all. Even with 350 armor and 3khealth the enemy sivir chunked me with 5 AAs without any armor reduction applied. On my own i don't have enough dmg to do anything against her. That's when i have a normal laning phase without any big kills or amazing farm. But when a tank can snowball he will just jump into the enemy team, be unkillable and kill everyone at once. It's so crazy how tanks are feast or famine now and how weak they are in the lategame, no sign of "tanking" anymore.

PhDs NutsJun 29, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Made the mistake to play a real tank for once again (malph). Can't push or take a tower at all. Even with 350 armor and 3khealth the enemy sivir chunked me with 5 AAs without any armor reduction applied. On my own i don't have enough dmg to do anything against her. That's when i have a normal laning phase without any big kills or amazing farm. But when a tank can snowball he will just jump into the enemy team, be unkillable and kill everyone at once. It's so crazy how tanks are feast or famine now and how weak they are in the lategame, no sign of "tanking" anymore.

Malphite is a horrible example, lol. He's still very strong. Max E first and get a sunfire cape and you're one of the fastest top lane waveclearers in the game.

My last 2 Malphite games: http://i.imgur.com/DTma12X.png[/img]

GayFluffyUnicornJul 4, 20161 votes

Not a tank player actually but nautilus and malph were my to go champs so far. But i do feel that armor doesn't mean that much anymore if the enemy adc is equally strong maybe only a lvl down especially since crit dmg is so strong this season+ the dmg steroids from fervor, armor pen in the tree etc. Usually i would went for sunfire cape but not against maokai. His dmg was way too high.

RalanrJun 29, 20162 votes

Tanks are slow split pushers. No one wants a slow split pusher.

YumaS2AstralJun 30, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Made the mistake to play a real tank for once again (malph). Can't push or take a tower at all. Even with 350 armor and 3khealth the enemy sivir chunked me with 5 AAs without any armor reduction applied. On my own i don't have enough dmg to do anything against her. That's when i have a normal laning phase without any big kills or amazing farm. But when a tank can snowball he will just jump into the enemy team, be unkillable and kill everyone at once. It's so crazy how tanks are feast or famine now and how weak they are in the lategame, no sign of "tanking" anymore.

How did you manage to only end up with 350 armor? Unless this was not late game, Malphite will always end up with at least 450 armor. That's unless you build a lot of magic resistance and pure health, but if you pick Malphite, you want to stack armor on him because that's what benefits him more.

GayFluffyUnicornJul 4, 20161 votes

well i was laning against maokai. After the first fight i realised how much dmg he actually dealt so i was going for mr first. Sivir got trashed on bot pretty hard and they also had viktor in mid who snowballed hard so yes i went more for mr than armor. Additionally i went for abysall since we had 3 magic dmg champs on our team+soraka (which doesn't count but still) to make it easier to blow up viktor and sivir. Didn't work as i intented it to.

AlwaysByMySideJun 30, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Made the mistake to play a real tank for once again (malph). Can't push or take a tower at all. Even with 350 armor and 3khealth the enemy sivir chunked me with 5 AAs without any armor reduction applied. On my own i don't have enough dmg to do anything against her. That's when i have a normal laning phase without any big kills or amazing farm. But when a tank can snowball he will just jump into the enemy team, be unkillable and kill everyone at once. It's so crazy how tanks are feast or famine now and how weak they are in the lategame, no sign of "tanking" anymore.

So are you lying, or just super bad at the game?

"I can't do anything against the ADC as Malphite" lol, wtf.

GayFluffyUnicornJul 4, 20161 votes

Said the one too afraid posting on his real account. Lemme guess you are silver or something? Not all adcs are potatoes like in your trashcan division. Here in highplat-diamond they know how to kite and build correctly. When to use their spellblock. Yes a lategame malphite can't do much against a sivir with her inbuilt spellblock, bloodthirster and peel from her support but as i said in your trash elo a concept like peeling doesn'T exist at all.

YumaS2AstralJun 30, 20162 votes

{quoted}

can confirm tanks are not nearly as tanky as before.

was playing/practicing shen because i missed old shen and I have a sunfire, randuins, and thornmail, 300+ armor and 4k+ hp... and i'm still getting chunked.

It is important to remember that Shen's base stats are very low. Actually, going just by base stats, Sona is tankier than Shen, and Sona is known to be one of the squishiest champions in the game, with even a joke that she is squishier than a cannon minion.

He really does not get as much value from tank items as other tanks. He has his passive, but it is unreliable as hell. And his passive does not really make Shen tankier than other tanks. It just evens out.

WolfessJun 30, 20161 votes

{quoted}

It is important to remember that Shen's base stats are very low. Actually, going just by base stats, Sona is tankier than Shen, and Sona is known to be one of the squishiest champions in the game, with even a joke that she is squishier than a cannon minion.

He really does not get as much value from tank items as other tanks. He has his passive, but it is unreliable as hell. And his passive does not really make Shen tankier than other tanks. It just evens out.

he was really tanky before with his vorpal blade, especially since his taunt reduced damage taken from taunted enemies if i remember correctly. also new shen ONLY counters auto attack base champions IF they're dumb enough to not move away when he uses his new W after that wears off, he's pretty screwed as the cooldown is pretty long, same with his E. He literally has to continue chasing people withQ and even then he can get kited easily as well since his new E is much narrower than before. as shen you could take some poke before, Q a minion, auto it to proc vorpal, and heals yourself through minion waves to keep taking the harassment instead off your team.

MoarCowbell98Jun 30, 20161 votes

{quoted}

can confirm tanks are not nearly as tanky as before.

was playing/practicing shen because i missed old shen and I have a sunfire, randuins, and thornmail, 300+ armor and 4k+ hp... and i'm still getting chunked.

well tanks are designed to be tanky within reason. Shen can tank probably one or two people for ages and buy time for his team.

is any one in this game going to face tank an entire team for more than 5 seconds? probably not. even rammus and other super tanks would go down pretty quick if focused by 3 or more people.

YaskamasandwichJun 29, 20162 votes

I loved being the tank as a tank and not this "have to deal damage" crap. Unfortunately people hated that in season 5 so here we are today.

Darth StepVaderJun 29, 20162 votes

After tank items got nerfed and a lot of %dmg was added to the game, late game pure tanks( DrMundo Maokai Sion Nautilus etc) are almost insignificant.

Tank items are pretty cheap right now. So, when the carry has 4 items the tank has 4.5 or even 5 items. BUT, their value and stats late game is by far inferior to the damage items/masteries available right now. So, there's a pretty simple solution to this problem. Buff tank items to the point they help you at least survive for more than 5 seconds late game and make them a lot more expensive at the same time. This way, not only are tanks made important late game BUT the problem of carries being destroyed by tanks during mid game is also solved......

GayFluffyUnicornJun 29, 20162 votes

Not maokai. The new masteries together with how cheap spirit visage (+the buffs to this item) is he is nearly unkillable with all the spells blown during a fight and his dmg is still somewhat remarkable. Also his ult dmg reduction should not be underestimated.

YumaS2AstralJun 30, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Not maokai. The new masteries together with how cheap spirit visage (+the buffs to this item) is he is nearly unkillable with all the spells blown during a fight and his dmg is still somewhat remarkable. Also his ult dmg reduction should not be underestimated.

Maokai is far above other tanks exactly because of his damage reduction. Most tanks do not have that, as such they will be easily shredded late game.

LasslowJun 30, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Darth Tyrannus,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ae8ItN2o,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2016-06-29T18:23:36.188+0000)

After tank items got nerfed and a lot of %dmg was added to the game, late game pure tanks( etc) are almost insignificant.

Tank items are pretty cheap right now. So, when the carry has 4 items the tank has 4.5 or even 5 items. BUT, their value and stats late game is by far inferior to the damage items/masteries available right now. So, there's a pretty simple solution to this problem. Buff tank items to the point they help you at least survive for more than 5 seconds late game and make them a lot more expensive at the same time. This way, not only are tanks made important late game BUT the problem of carries being destroyed by tanks during mid game is also solved......

How is Sion a late-game pure tank?

RalanrJun 30, 20161 votes

Infinite scaling health.

Tychusfindlay919Jun 29, 20162 votes

"Tanks are not nearly as tanky as they used to be"

Sigh... unfortunately true. Damage meta. Meanwhile there are still a few morons out there complaining about some tank meta when an ADC full build can massively chunk a full build tank in 5 seconds.

HazyCloud7Jun 30, 20163 votes

That's suppose to happen. If a full build hyper carry adc with a crit IE build & last whisper upgrade couldn't massively chunk a tank in 5 seconds it would be a major problem.

That doesn't make it a damage meta, it's just finally balanced compared to when we had Poppy and Ekko building IBG/Sunfire/Spirit Visage and running around 1v1ing everybody from adcs to mages to assassins.

YumaS2AstralJun 30, 20162 votes

{quoted}

That's suppose to happen. If a full build hyper carry adc with a crit IE build & last whisper upgrade couldn't massively chunk a tank in 5 seconds it would be a major problem.

That doesn't make it a damage meta, it's just finally balanced compared to when we had Poppy and Ekko building IBG/Sunfire/Spirit Visage and running around 1v1ing everybody from adcs to mages to assassins.

An ADC should not be killing a tank in 5 seconds. An ADC should be killing a tank in a 1x1 situation if he kites well, but that should not happen in 5 seconds (except for Vayne)

HazyCloud7Jun 30, 20162 votes

Who said anything about killing a tank? I didn't. The poster I replied to didn't.

Tychusfindlay919Jun 30, 20161 votes

{quoted}

That's suppose to happen. If a full build hyper carry adc with a crit IE build & last whisper upgrade couldn't massively chunk a tank in 5 seconds it would be a major problem.

That doesn't make it a damage meta, it's just finally balanced compared to when we had Poppy and Ekko building IBG/Sunfire/Spirit Visage and running around 1v1ing everybody from adcs to mages to assassins.

Poppy and Ekko running around and 1v1 ADC and mages and assassins with full tank items is an issue with champion kits and base damages and has nothing to do with what I was talking about.

Nevertheless, I have to concede since I said massively chunk as opposed to kill which is what I meant.

WolfessJun 29, 20161 votes

Old shen had damage, his Q+auto and vorpal blade were plenty of damage enough to fight adcs and helped him sustain. A triforce or bork was all he needed in terms of damage items and he was good to go (cuz atk speed decreased a cooldown, cant remember if it was his passive or Q cooldown)

i dont want to gain damage in exchange for tankiness, I don't care about easy kills, I want to be bastard levels of annoying to my enemies. Also his damage is tied too much into his Q and waiting for it to cooldown to activate again, old shen just auto'd you to death, the Q was just there as a sheen proc and a fight sustain (or rylais proc for those humorous AP shen moments)

agbudarJun 29, 20161 votes

ehm... new shen has more damage then old shen ever had what are you talking about? on top of that a good (new) shen hard counters any attack based champion