If you dont want to touch Lee cause hes "cometitive" why you dont buff underperforming junglers?

PiVoRx·Dec 21, 2016·65 votes·15,375 views

Hello?

169 Comments

dakota saturnDec 22, 201662 votes

http://solarsystem.nasa.gov/images/slideshow/CometSidingSpring-full_200.jpg

This is really cometitive.

RiotNot SurrenderingDec 22, 201648 votes

Generally speaking, the junglers that thrive in competitive without destroying normal play are ones that scale very heavily with elo. Examples like Lee, reksai, nidalee, elise, rengar come to mind. Out of the junglers listed by OP, only kindred scales positively with elo (that I know off the top of my head).

This means that it would likely be irresponsible to buff (as the only action) certain champions into competitive (Eg. Amumu, Sej), because for them to be at a power level that succeeds in competitive, their normal play power will be over 9000. Imagine if Amumu goes from 56% winrate at Silver to 48% in Challenger and we say a champion needs 52% (some arbitrary number) in challenger to be playable, then amumu is probably at high 50's% in normal play by the time he's viable in competitive.

Contrast this to Lee who is 44% in silver, but 52% in challenger. Lee is now playable in competitive without breaking normal play.

These numbers are not accurate, (but their relationships are roughly correct) and not the only factor that determines competitive viability, but it is definitely an important factor (another important factor is early-mid game priority and reliability).

As such, accessible power and competitive viability are usually (but not always) at odds with one another. So the question becomes: which do we value more? Competitive diversity or accessible champions? Or are they equal? Can we accomplish both at once? If you're Lee sin, the answer is probably yes. If you're garen, the answer is probably no.

Malphite and xin Zhao are amongst the most popular champions in the game. Would they still be popular if they weren't as accessible? Or would we ruin an easy and fun champion for a lot of players and still not see them in competitive? Do we want 133 ryze, reksai and azir's with notoriously low winrates (and low accessible power for the majority of players)? Champions like Ryze add diversity to the competitive game, but are also functionally useless for a lot of players.

Design is a compromise and these are tough questions with no clear answer. But the obvious one is that we shouldn't just buff these champions with the explicit goal of getting them into competitive, because it is not guaranteed of working and it would likely backfire. (Eg. Sejuani threads from a year ago - "why is she the tankiest champion while doing the most damage and having the most cc?")

If we want these guys in competitive, they probably require kit level changes to get there without breaking the game.

NefasDec 22, 201618 votes

There's more than one way to "destroy" normal play. Champs that are played or banned in 50%+ of games are destroying play. It is explicitly undesirable to have to constantly play matches over and over and over again with the same champs, especially when those champs kit are based around jack-of-all-trades, lack of counterplay, mobility bullshit.

It's wrong to act like all win rates are created equal when the playrate difference is massive.

RiotNot SurrenderingDec 22, 201612 votes

Lee is only 50% p/b because his current state is untenable and we acknowledged that. No one said Lee sin was in a balanced state anywhere.

On top of that, we've had Lee sin nerfs on the PBE for almost 3 weeks, which are a sizeable hit to his early snowballing and also jungle changes that hit him more than say, fiddlesticks.

Ey b0ss mangDec 23, 20168 votes

tbh lee just needs a full on rework. The only counterplay to lee is "hope he's fucking garbage." A good lee sin can just dick you the whole game, no matter who you are. He's often built off-tank, where he can still burst down squishies, or full ad, where he can burst tanks. His base stats are high enough to slaughter you early game, and unless you're a small handful of champions, he isn't fun to play against.

AMYS GRAVEDec 22, 20163 votes

Do we want 133 ryze, reksai and azir's with notoriously low winrates

You actually can't have that. In order for a champion to have a high winrate another champion has to have a low winrate because 5 champs win every game and 5 champs lose every game. The average winrate for all champions is, by construction, 50%.

EROTIC RAID BOSSDec 22, 201610 votes

so pedantic

obv he means a bunch of champs too hard for beginners

AMYS GRAVEDec 22, 20166 votes

There's a big difference between skill floor, skill ceiling, and winrate, and because that is the point of his post he needs to make that distinction.

The fact that the average winrate of all champions is 50% by construction means that if you're using winrates to argue about the effectiveness of junglers as a whole (who are effectively mandatory in every game) then as a group they will always seem balanced. That's not to say there wont be outliers, but the outliers will be offset by the rest of the cast because the high winrates come at the expense of others in their role.

EROTIC RAID BOSSDec 22, 20165 votes

and because that is the point of his post he needs to make that distinction.

not really I think everyone understood his point perfectly fine

AMYS GRAVEDec 22, 20162 votes

You really think these boards understand the difference? They don't understand that pick rates are important in champion balance, let alone the difference between skill floor and ceiling.

RiotNot SurrenderingDec 22, 20168 votes

Sorry, to clarify - I was saying these Champs perform poorly at lower mmr. If every champ is the same difficulty/accessible power profile as azir, then you are right - they all have 50% winrate at all mmr. The distinction here is accessibility of power; winrate by elo was just the Stat I was implicitly referencing, because most people associate azir and ryze with being weak in normal play, but strong in competitive. Like you said, if everyone is weak in normal and strong in competitive, then no one is an outlier, but the game mastery curve is holistically steeper.

So yes, we could have all champions with an azir like profile and the game would work just fine, but given how the game is right now, that world is a long way away,but it works. (Eg. I can play street fighter as a beginner, access 5% of Chun li's power and still have fun. A pro will access 100% and it will be balanced at both mine and pros level, because everyone at my level is also accessing 5% power).

It would require a lot of injection of hard to access power to get GAREN, voli, xin, etc. In competitive. (street fighter model - increase skill ceiling of individual champs).

Alternatively, in the Dota model, skill ceiling is quite low for most individual Champs, but the game itself is insanely hard. In this model, being good at Dota is less about being good at skeleton King (he is literally sions old q and three passive at 58% winrate) and sven and more about being good at the base game. (there are of course some outliers like meepo and wisp at 37% winrate).

The other strategy we've been employing is making Champion power more accessible (Eg. Removing resets from nidalee,making azir e more forgiving to chain on a q). (Dota model - reduce skill ceiling of individual Champs, high ceiling of base game).

All of these adjustments are if we want more diversity in competitive play without breaking normal play and I think in an ideal world, they aren't mutually exclusive but in our current environment, they are. We can take steps towards either model though and they are both equally valid and sustainable.

FlemmanDec 22, 20163 votes

The problem is, imo, that at lower elo, even if the champ isn't fit for that, it will be picked a number of time because of how poorly the actual effectiveness at each elo is given to the "only lol site" player

if they want to climb, they don't know that in their actual elo amumu work better than yasuo or lee, no, they will play high elo champ because it's obvious for them that you climb by playing the champ who perform well higher (no carry player actual want to admit he will be trash with a high skill champ)

They also know that, if they play enough of it, they will one day remove the cap (the weakness of the champ) and climb, so they will play it, again and again, and again, leading to those champ also crowding lower elo (ban and/or play)

To be honest, I think a weekly/monthly riot made effectiveness classement by tier would be much helpfull to bring diversity than any nerf/buff system

AMYS GRAVEDec 22, 20162 votes

We can take steps towards either model though and they are both equally valid and sustainable.

Do you really think both models are equally sustainable? In the case where there is a steep mastery curve for every champion then systematic changes to the game can warp the accessibility of that mastery curve, causing re-balancing work for many champions. The reverse is not true though, with changes on one champion not requiring systematic game changes (usually). This can be seen with the addition of keystones as an example of systematic game changes where on release all champions got some easier access to power but trynd and yasuo got the power more easily than other champions thanks to the first iteration of warlords.

I'm not meaning that one way or the other is the right way to go, just curious about your thoughts.

RiotNot SurrenderingDec 23, 20167 votes

The models I was talking about were 1. Bring skill ceiling up for every champion (including garen) so everyone is like azir or 2. Bring skill ceiling down so everyone is like garen.

In all cases, we have to be careful of balance and as for systematic changes, I don't think things like keystone disproportionately affect model 1 over model 2.

Tactical PoroDec 23, 201611 votes

[{quoted}](name=Fizz Enthusiast,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ac9AE1sX,comment-id=00040001000100010000,timestamp=2016-12-23T00:07:16.580+0000)

The models I was talking about were 1. Bring skill ceiling up for every champion (including garen) so everyone is like azir or 2. Bring skill ceiling down so everyone is like garen.

In all cases, we have to be careful of balance and as for systematic changes, I don't think things like keystone disproportionately affect model 1 over model 2.

I don't think there's a will or a way that you could bring down champions to Garen's level. Your whole design process has changed from 4 abilities and a nice thematic to 4 abilities + 4 secondary abilities + what the hell is happening thematic. You're over designing and loading kits in the present that are hurting your past developments. In Leagues current state it's as if you're building League 2.0 right over the original and trying to make their clash of design work, but failing in the process and needing to find justification for it.

VenomarDec 23, 20167 votes

Sick burn bro.

100% valid. They're building a spaceship on top of the model rocket, telling us they're the same, and trying to make us believe that the model rocket is as good as the spaceship.

LatetotheRaceDec 23, 20164 votes

XinZhao Dash, poke poke poke. Warwick Dash, poke poke poke. Tryndamere Dash, poke poke SCREAAAM poke poke. Pantheon Dash, poke poke poke. Udyr RUN, bonk, run, bonk. Seeing a pattern?

Then we have Talon SPREAD, Dash, rake, hop, hop, hop. Dash, rake, hop. Good luck killing me! HOP HOP HOP Camille Grapple, dash, shred, drag out kite, shield, lock down, shred some more, grapple away. Ivern Dash, C'Mon everyone! AOE burst slow bomb, DAISY, knockup harass, vision deprivation, wall hop.

Just in general these champions barely resemble characters from the same games. Riot needs to make a complete 180 here and decide what they are actually going to do. Either rework ALL previously mundane and boring champions, while releasing no new champions, or keep on chugging ahead and abandon the older models. Right now they're trying to do both, and they're really doing a poor job at it. Fiddlesticks Taliyah TahmKench Aatrox Urgot Kalista As it is, they can barely handle who they have.

Sexy Jack RabbitDec 22, 201641 votes

Okay but are you ever going to address the issue that Lee Sin does nothing but destroy diversity in the jungle? When he is strong, the Jungle roster just becomes smaller, as people are forced to pick champions that can keep up with his insane gank, roam and clear potential.

Not too mention being able to burst down squishies using just 2 abilities due to his insane base stats. This was less clear in the past, as we had plenty of other carry jungler we could choose from that could keep up with Lee Sin's insanely overloaded kit (That's a fact, not an opinion), but now that Kindred, Elise, Nidalee, Rengar, Kha'zix, Rek'sai and somewhat even Graves have all been nerfed and changed to a substantial degree, Lee Sin is now back to dominating the jungle, and weeding out a lot of other previously viable picks.

Probably safe to know you won't answer this due to the legitimacy of it and your current track record over the past few posts of ignoring questions and answering other questions, with a question.

Riot really needs to look into hiring more people who can interact with the community intelligently and directly. Rather then vaguely and little by little.

EROTIC RAID BOSSDec 22, 20167 votes

the jungle pool is always small in competitive. it was straight up just gragas reksai elise for how long?

I agree that they need to pay attention to diversity in the jungle but lets not put all the blame on lee sin just cus you don't like fighting him lol.

Sexy Jack RabbitDec 22, 201616 votes

Okay but that's not what OP Was asking at all?? OP Was asking why is it that they refuse to nerf Lee Sin because he is being played "Competitively", and yet the refuse to buff champions like Xin Zhao, Yi and Volibear to be viable in AT LEAST normal/Solo-queue play. It's another excuse from the balancing department.

Lee Sin is 100% to blame for the lack of diversity in the jungle when he is strong, and is one of the sole reason as to why it was so atrocious in seasons past. It lead to certain champions being completely removed from the meta due to every time they were picked, they were just counter-picked by Lee, as his early ganks, clears and trading is unmatched by any other champion who is not a carry pick.

And in regards to competitive, Elise is not strong enough in her current position to match Lee Sin even, so as a result of him being strong, the current Jungle roster has become EVEN Smaller then it was before.

l Helios lDec 22, 20163 votes

You didn't read anything the red wrote, did you?

Tl:dr (dc)

If champions who don't scale with elo get buffed and have even decent-a little high win rates in challenger, then it means they're too strong at competitive and likely destroying lower elos. If a champion who scales with elo has widely varying win rates all at all elos, then that's OK because they're viable competitively without messing up normal games at at all elos. We want power and accessibility to work together, but that's hard from a design perspective. Can't have all champions be Ryze or have everyone be Xin Zhao. Champions who are easily accessible and carry a lot of power will find their way into competitive and will also be dominating most elos because of the two factors working together.

RiotNot SurrenderingDec 22, 201623 votes

I don't understand the circlejerk about refusing to nerf Lee sin when we've had nerfs for him on the PBE for almost 3 weeks.

LankPantsDec 22, 201630 votes

This is a pussy nerf. The problem with Lee Sin is that he always gets pussy nerfs. This doesn't solve any of Lee's issues, he's still going to be dumpstering early with his insane base damages.

If you want people to stop complaining about you not nerfing Lee Sin give him a real nerf. Do something like removing his BS kick-flash combo or nerfing his Q base damage. Hit him with a nerf that will either fix a problem with his kit or significantly reduce his power.

Nameless VoiceDec 23, 201615 votes

Right. Lee Sin's kit is problematic.

He's too good at too many things. He has too many strengths and not enough weaknesses.

His kit also feels unfair to play against because he has so many tricks up his sleeve to get out of trouble that it's really difficult to punish him for his mistakes unless he makes a lot of them. Meanwhile, some of his tricks (such as the Insec play) are mostly dependant on the Lee Sin player's mechanics/APM and doesn't have enough counterplay for his opponent other than "hope the Lee Sin player is bad.".

He also has a lot of hidden power scattered around his kit that he doesn't need, such as being one of the only junglers you can't flash away from (because of the very long persist time on his Q mark), and being one of the best objective controllers/stealers in the game due to his high-damage reveal+dash+execute.

Just nerfing his numbers does not and will never fix Lee Sin's issues. It might "fix" him by making him so bad that he can't be viably played any more, but that's not actually fixing anything.

LankPantsDec 23, 20166 votes

Just nerfing his numbers does not and will never fix Lee Sin's issues. It might "fix" him by making him so bad that he can't be viably played any more, but that's not actually fixing anything.

Personally after seeing Lee Sin be the top jungler for 4 seasons I'd be fine with numbers nerfs so harsh that he can't be played anymore. I've seen it happen to far less problematic champs than Lee Sin, so if you want to be consistent it's a solid course of action.

Masala ChaiDec 23, 201615 votes

And you know what the real travesty is? Other champions that influence competitive meta just as much as Lee Sin get completely gutted to trash tier levels (S4 Elise , S5 AP Nidalee Mid, S6 Kalista and Late S6 Azir ) while waiting years or never to have their champion return to them.

Meanwhile, this bullshit monk gets buffed the instant he falls out of meta, and gets love tapped when he is number 1. Insane.

Surfer AsheDec 23, 20162 votes

So a pleb nerf that hurts his competitive viability? Sounds like you didn't even read the red post.

"Pussy nerfs" since when is this a fucking term? Remember when Lee lost his ATS slow from E, his shield from ward-hopping and also doubled the cooldown on W?

Lee is barely functioning as is, very barebones from when he was released and you want to nerf him further when something else will just replace him as "the benchmark jungler" and you'll cry about that too.

Lane Lee isn't even remotely viable as it once used to be.

Sorry, continue circlejerking.

LatetotheRaceDec 23, 20166 votes

Hehe, barely functioning. Classic. Next thing you know, this guy will say that yasuo takes skill. (Mechanics are pretty damn simple btw.)

Surfer AsheDec 23, 20161 votes

Seeing as Lee's winrate correlates with elo, which implies only seasoned players can only make him effective, it's barely functioning when even the slightest damage nerf will send him off a cliff in which J4 or Elise can easily fill the void being the premier jungler you lot love to complain about.

Quit being bad and apply youself.

LatetotheRaceDec 23, 201610 votes

Let's take a look at a similar champion here. Winrates and playrates. Hecarim Bronze+ 52.2% winrate 8.8% playrate. Silver+ 51.6% winrate 10.1% playrate. Gold+ 51% winrate 11.1% playrate. Platinum+ 50.8% winrate 11.9% playrate. Diamond+ 49.3% winrate 12.4% playrate.

LeeSin Bronze+ 50% winrate 30.4 % playrate. Silver+ 50.4% winrate 34.7% playrate. Gold+ 50.8% winrate 37.1% playrate. Platinum+ 50.9% winrate 38.1% playrate. Diamond+ 51,7% winrate 39.5% playrate.

If you missed it, read the math. Unlike with Hecarim, Lee sin's win rate only increases as his play rate does. This cannot be said about almost literally every other champion in the game. A champion who reaches 1/3 games to even 4/10 games should NEVER break 40% winrate, OR you guessed it, that champion is objectively broken. A champion that wins over 15-20% of ALL games is problematic at the very least. He needs to be bludgeoned by the nerf hammer as to end this disgusting trend. That or ten bans, that would do it.

AMYS GRAVEDec 22, 201616 votes

Partially because of Lee's historical long term dominance, while other champions get double nerfed out of jungle viability after one patch of dominance. Lee seems to get surgical and careful nerfs to ensure he stays viable while other champs don't seem to get that consideration.

item 3070 Sejuani item 1401

LatetotheRaceDec 23, 20162 votes

What would happen if he was made unviable though. Wouldn't the next best jungler just take his place? I don't see the long-term repercussions tbh. Evelynn Jax Hecarim all have similar enough playstyles to pretty much just replace him.

LankPantsDec 23, 20163 votes

Any of them would still be preferable to Lee Sin. At least they've not had the top pick rate for the last 4 years straight.

RaxistaichoDec 23, 20164 votes

*That *at least is a holdover from a rather infamous point a few years ago when, I think, Ghostcrawler said that it was known that Lee Sin was overpowered but that he wouldn't be nerfed because fan outcry would be too strong. Of course he was nerfed and he's still nerfed when necessary to this day, but strongly negative feelings can linger.

In the same way, people will remember that 1 enemy Lee Sin that got all his lanes snowballing while forgetting the 3 before him that accomplished nothing and scaled into a particularly sturdy melee minion.

Sexy Jack RabbitDec 23, 201610 votes

What's effectively going to happen is that his win-rate will drop by 1.5% and like usual you'll call it a day and say he's balanced, despite having nothing but an overloaded kit with not as much burst as before.

You go and nerf Kindred until they have a 44% Win rate by literally REMOVING part of their kit, yet you only nerf Lee Sin with a small numbers change. It is a blatant favoritism that the balancing department has NEVER addressed.

For god sake, you lowered Nidalee to the point she had a 39% Win rate?!?? (Given that was partly due to Jungle changes, but by removing her Auto-reset you pretty much destroyed her). She wasn't even THAT OP that she deserved that.

Azir's kit was literally ripped to shreds and bent over because he was too good at too many things, so when are you going to address Lee Sin's kit? You can't even begin to say his kit isn't, he literally has 7 Abilties, with up to 2 passives on Each.

Riot talks about how a champion should be fun to play against and fun to play as, take Fizz's new rework for example. I can acknowledge his kit is more fun, but one aspect (His ult) is not. Well Lee Sin is definitely one of the most aggravating champions to play against, but unfortunately it's due to his ENTIRE KIT, and Riot has always refused to do anything about it.

Sometimes I can go, "Hey! I can acknowledge that Lee Sin out-traded me in that scenario!" And in other cases I'm just left staring at my Screen because Lee Sin's ultimate did 800+ Damage due to having 200% BONUS AD SCALING. A decent idea would be shifting his ultimate from a stupid high base execute ability, to a utilty or CC spell. It's not like his kit NEEDS a knock-back to begin with, let alone one with 500+ Damage at level 11.

Baron PerenoldeDec 23, 20164 votes

Because you can hotfix buffs or nerfs for clearly problematic champions, yet you refuse to do so on Lee Sin who is a top tier pick. A top tier pick for YEARS. And the one time he fell out of flavor? Riot gave him % health damage on his ult. Yeah there are nerfs on the PBE... but there was also a rework on it that never saw the light of day. Same with Riven. Same with a LOT of balance changes that come and go on the beta. Until those changes make it to live, it don't mean diddly-squat.

That blatant favoritism is why this "circlejerk" exists. You clearly don't have any idea of what you're talking about when you think a generalist like Lee is healthy for the game when he's strong. Generalists aren't supposed to be strong, don't you know what the term means? It means jack-of-all-trades, master of none. But here we are with Lee, who is strong at many things yet is just losing damage on his ultimate. Sweet, now he'll just take two shots to kill the adc instead of one!

I'm sorry that this is coming off so aggressive, but you remind me too much of Meddler; you blow smoke up our asses with buzzwords and this smugness that I don't appreciate.

RiotNot SurrenderingDec 22, 201618 votes

Like I said before, Lee is just overpowered and we have nerfs in accordingly. I also said that in a balanced state, Lee doesn't destroy diversity in the jungle.

There are a few junglers (Eg. Lee, Hec, Vi) that have been disproportionately benefiting from s7 jungle and we are investigating some systematic changes that evens up the playing field.

These are the Champs that have the very efficient clear/gank cycle. If he still needs nerfs after this, then I don't see why we wouldn't do it.

Chromatic EagleDec 22, 201617 votes

For players, he has either been very difficult to play against, or annoying. Riot has defended softball nerfing him because of his popularity and competitive play, while other champions who reach that state are nerfed harder and fall off the meta. It feels as if Riot plays favorites with champions.

Zok72Dec 22, 201615 votes

I disagree with your statement here, when generalists like Lee Sin are strong it reduces jungle diversity because they become overwhelmingly the "safe" picks. When specialists are strong they warp the rest of the game to a larger extent because their strengths affect viability of other champions and of compositions, but jungle metagames develop around pick/counterpick decisions. A team can take a strong specialist with a specific exploitable weakness or take a weaker but safer generalist or take a weaker counterpick with a strong matchup against the good specialist.

TLDR: generalists suppress jungle diversity because if they aren't weaker than specialists their lack of vulnerabilities makes them inherently stronger

ModAcademy KaynDec 22, 20164 votes

Riot really needs to look into hiring more people who can interact with the community intelligently and directly. Rather then vaguely and little by little.

Okay, can we just stop right here? Because I understand where you're coming from, but this needs explaining. The type of communication you're referring from Fizz E. is the exact type of communication i get from my Dad whenever I ask him something that concerns Politics. I'll ask something specific like "What do you think about the estate tax?", and the attitude you're giving off, you'd want him to simply answer about it.

But the way he answers it, very similar to Fizz E., he doesn't give that specific answer. He explains the concepts around it, why it was first put in place, and the reasons why it still exists today, and after all that, he'll give his opinion on it.

This is what Fizz E. is doing. He wants people to understand the reason why some champs aren't viable in competitive, as for people to understand this, would explain WHY the LCS is lacking in Diversity. This isn't some vague answer, it's an explanation to the reason of the small viability in LCS. And frankly, that last sentence is still rather rude.

Herbal KentDec 22, 20164 votes

[deleted]

RiotNot SurrenderingDec 22, 20165 votes

I actually think it's possible to have both without the tug of war, we just need to define our champion sets well.

I think a reasonable strategy is - "OK here are all the champions that exhibit tendencies to be viable in competitive play." (including champions that aren't balanced for competitive yet).

"Here are all the champions that cannot be viable in competitive" and we slowly adjust then to move from set 2 (this set) to set 1. This likely involves injection of skill expression.

Now we balance both sets of champions around normal play (so normal play is fair), then inject and remove purely competitive power to balance set 1 for competitive play. For example, we could say kindred is balanced for normal play, so let's add some purely competitive power.

The other way is to slowly move all champions from set 1 to set 2. (ie. The idea that if Noone is viable in competitive, then everyone is viable.)

LankPantsDec 22, 20161 votes

Wouldn't another way to handle this be to say "we have these 20 champs who are huge outliers in competitive, we're not going to let them be strong, competitively or casually until we can find a way to make them work."

In doing that you open up the pool far quicker and we get to not see the same 5 cancer jungles season after season while you guys try to work out a fix.

RiotNot SurrenderingDec 23, 20168 votes

That is also a strategy and we have done that before, but ask any azir or kalista main how that feels - doing it for 20 more champions is probably a mistake and probably not in the interest of players.

LankPantsDec 23, 201610 votes

Isn't this the very favouritism you always claim doesn't exist though? Kalista and Azir mains get a completely unusable champion but Lee Sin mains are special snowflakes and their champ cant be handled like that.

Baron PerenoldeDec 23, 20161 votes

That's just him fishing for upvotes from Kalista and Azir players.

Surfer AsheDec 23, 20167 votes

Because upvotes are worth so much.

Quit being petty.

Baron PerenoldeDec 24, 20163 votes

Calling out his bs is being petty? lol okay. Riot claimed to have learned their lesson regarding overnerfing somebody after Sejuani, yet did the same thing to Azir and Kalista afterwards. I personally hate facing both of those champions, but I hate the fact that Riot lied to even more.

Sexy Jack RabbitDec 23, 20166 votes

Okay then, why is it that Lee Sin avoids that Treatment? He's been a top Jungler for 4 seasons. Nidalee eventually received it. Explain yourself for once.

Cosmic WarperDec 23, 20164 votes

[{quoted}](name=Fizz Enthusiast,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ac9AE1sX,comment-id=00040004000100000000,timestamp=2016-12-23T00:09:45.580+0000)

That is also a strategy and we have done that before, but ask any azir or kalista main how that feels - doing it for 20 more champions is probably a mistake and probably not in the interest of players.

Yet you gutted azir and kalista due to their longevity in competitive play, but you give lee sin a mere numbers nerf when his issues are intrinsic to his kit. His identity is his mobility and damage, yet he has so much more tacked on like his W lifesteal/spellvamp and his ultimate damage bonus to champs with high bonus health.