89 Comments

Quepha26 votes

Because he's not a hyperscaling tank, he just has a nice bonus to hp to help slow the rate at which he falls off.

YumaS2Astral17 votes

{quoted}

Because he's not a hyperscaling tank, he just has a nice bonus to hp to help slow the rate at which he falls off.

Also, his early game is actually incredibly opressive, and used to be even more opressive before the nerfs to his E.

doubleguac4 votes

Ya Sion has absurd base damage early game. He out trades almost everyone in lane. But his damage plateaus super hard.

A lot of the other tanks have damage that scales with their tankiness. TK obviously gets health scaling on everything. Malphite gets extra damage for building armor. Nautilus essentially gets more damage out of his shield the longer he can keep it up.

Sion's damage just flatlines once he finishes leveling his abilities (really, once he finishes leveling Q and W, since his E's values got gutted). There's not really any good "one-hit-wonder" damage items for him either, since he does a mix of physical and magic, and doesn't spend a lot of time auto attacking in fights.

Also, IMO, his kit is stronger in skirmishes than in full team fights. 5v5, there's just so much miscellaneous CC flying around, and charging a Q paints an enormous target on your head.

TheOvermind1 votes

How on earth does malphite get extra damage when building armor? i think u meant rammus or Taric. Malphite gets more armor when he builds armor.

Ralanr2 votes

He has a damage ability that scales with armor I believe.

TheOvermind2 votes

yeah u r right he gets extra dmg on his w and e with armor

Steel Blossom6 votes

Oh man if you want oppressive early game, remember AP Sion before his entire rework? That was honestly the stuff of nightmares.

Stars Shaper10 votes

AurelionSol Because he hyperscales out of meta.

blobs28 votes

because adc scale 10x times better than any tank

redniwediS7 votes

His W really doesn't scale that well anymore. He can technically keep gaining health infinitely, but he has to have access to farm to do it.

Basically he starts to drop off when the late game carries get most of their builds and he runs out of open item slots. It's the defense from items that keeps him going, not his infinite scaling.

I'd really love the old W scaling to come back...

Mokkun7 votes

None of the infinite scalers are hyper carries.

Nasus is the closest because he has the capacity to build tank, and do damage, but even he has issues with his kit. He can always be killed, and generally be kited.

The theory of infinite scaling rams up against the reality of game time. They don't get enough farm in the time allotted.

Hell, Thresh theoretically infinite scales, but nobody considers him a hyper carry.

YumaS2Astral6 votes

{quoted}

None of the infinite scalers are hyper carries.

Nasus is the closest because he has the capacity to build tank, and do damage, but even he has issues with his kit. He can always be killed, and generally be kited.

The theory of infinite scaling rams up against the reality of game time. They don't get enough farm in the time allotted.

Hell, Thresh theoretically infinite scales, but nobody considers him a hyper carry.

I would say Veigar is the closest one, given the fact that unlike Nasus, he can do a lot more damage and has more control during a teamfight. He is just way squishier.

charcharmunro2 votes

Veigar is one of the few champions whose winrate pretty much only goes up over time. Nasus at full-build with 200 stacks or 600 stacks... Doesn't matter how much he's got if he can't reach anybody to use it on, and most full-build ADCs can melt Nasus provided they have some peel or a QSS, anyway. Veigar has ALL of his abilities powered up as the match goes on and isn't really kiteable like Nasus.

10Tickler6 votes

Nasus doesn't worry about using his Stacks on an enemy. Nasus worries about Three-shotting a turret, while his team plays 'Catch me if you can' with the enemy team

It Hertz When IP2 votes

Dunno why you got downvoted, every Nasus I've seen excelled at split-pushing in part because they can chunk a turret for 40% of its health with the first hit.

10Tickler1 votes

People dislike when someone says something logical. That's all

The Deckowner5 votes

Sion gains 2 hp per cs Nasus gains 3 dmg per cs and 6 for large minions and monsters

500HP<500dmg

especially with cancer combination of items like item 3931 item 3153 item 3036and all of the %hp dmg from champion ability

EndlessSorcerer7 votes

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Nasus

If Siphoning Strike kills its target, Nasus permanently gains** 3 stacks** of Siphoning Strike, doubled to **6 stacks **if the victim was a champion, large minion or large monster.

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Sion

Passive: Sion permanently gains** 2 bonus health** whenever he kills an enemy, increased to 10 bonus health against large enemies and enemy champion takedowns.

Your numbers differ from reality. Significantly.

Bhagswag1 votes

While we're on the topic, can you give me some tips on fighting Nasus toplane? I know he's not OP. In fact, I like his playstyle. However, I can never stop an enemy Nasus.

I usually play Shen top. I'm scared to play Teemo or something because I will get one shotted even faster if I mess up.

EndlessSorcerer2 votes

Honestly, the best advice I can give is to ask your jungler for help early. Nasus lanes tend to draw focus from both junglers (Wither is great for setting up ganks while Nasus is an easy target early-game).

One of the most important factors is wave-control. Whenever I play Nasus, I always try to freeze the wave just outside my tower since it makes it difficult for many opponents to harass me, can make me difficult to gank without a risky tower-dive, and leaves my enemy over-extended and exposed to ganks.

Against Nasus, you want to get the minion wave on your side of the lane and freeze it. Nasus has no mobility and his only ranged attack has a high mana-cost, so this can let you chunk him for every CS he goes for and deny him the opportunity to sustain. It also makes it easy for your jungler and/or mid-laner to gank him and harder for you to get ganks.

I generally recommend playing durable, high-damage champions against Nasus. While some squishy champions can make his life horrible early, he will generally murder them with 200 stacks and Sheen (roughly 10 minutes into the game). Nasus can't effectively itemize penetration without sacrificing durability, so champions who can stack armor and MR mitigate his damage greatly.

The following champions are quite good at dealing with Nasus (in my experience):

DrMundo This is my default counter-pick to Nasus. You quickly become unkillable and your mixed sustained damage will gradually eat through him. I typically manage to first-blood Nasus at level 2 without jungler intervention as Mundo and snowball off of that.

Darius Renekton Garen Olaf These champions can build Black Cleaver into defensive items (i.e. DMP, Sunfire Cape) to trade with Nasus. They are strong early-game, have innate sustain and they can trade favourably with Nasus so long as they can control the minion wave. In addition, Wither doesn't effect them too badly.

Trundle While Wither can cut your damage out-put, Trundle's early-trade potential and sustain can let you build a lead against Nasus. Late-game, Trundle can crush Nasus in a 1v1 fight (so long as you have QSS for Wither) and his ultimate will make Nasus squishy during teamfights (while making Trundle unkillable). I'd probably recommend Blade of the Ruined King -> Sunfire Cape in this match-up. Also, Trundle can solo buff camps at level 1, so I'd recommend stealing the enemy red or blue buff and then teleport to lane after basing; you will have an experience advantage and the minion wave will be pushing towards your tower.

Vladimir can be a painful match-up as Nasus. While you are both rather weak early-game, you both scale extremely well and Vlad has the range advantage. Vladimir is one of the few match-ups who can constantly harass Nasus under-tower and out-sustain him. Once Vladimir has Hextech Revolver, Rylai's Crystal Scepter and Void Staff, it can be very difficult to deal with him (especially if he has Boots of Swiftness to kite you).


Champions in other lanes are quite capable of countering Nasus too.

Malzahar can kite and murder Nasus at pretty much every stage of the game if he has his ultimate. If he builds appropriately (i.e. Rod of Ages, Rylai's Crystal Scepter, Liandry's Torment, Void Staff), he can even wean Nasus down without it due to his high damage and durability.

MasterYi is capable of dueling Nasus whenever he has his ultimate available. Highlander makes Master Yi immune to attack speed and movement speed slows, which renders Wither (Nasus' main defensive tool) useless. Master Yi will typically be able to kill Nasus through raw DPS while Skirmisher's Sabre and Meditate can be used to reduce the damage Nasus deals to him.


item 3047 are especially valuable against Nasus as most champion. In addition to providing armor, it reduces the damage of his Q and basic attacks by an unmitigateable 10%.

item 3116 and item 3022 and item 3025 are very useful to have on your team against Nasus since they can help your team kite him during teamfights, preventing him from reaching or sticking to targets.

ChaoticPinecone3 votes

dont be scared to play the teemo. Its not a bad counter. Even if you lose lane, once you group you save the blind for when he gets close. It stops a chunk of his damage. AD is better at countering nasus, but AP works fine too.

Kennen plays similar to teemo but with more utility. A lot of autoattack harass.

Another option is to play heimerdinger. He does well in lane, then once you get a rylais its easy. You can basically kite him forever, both solo or in a fight.

Tryndle cant bully as hard, but taking away his takiness makes him easy to kill.

Fiora can 1v1 him most of the game. So can Pantheon. Darius and Morde do well too.

Ziovi5 votes

btw, nasus' win rate goes down after a while too. It decreases after the 35-40 minutes mark.

charcharmunro4 votes

Nasus is more mid-lategame, isn't he? Because after that point, pretty much everybody can kite him to hell and back.

mogonk6 votes

{quoted}

Nasus is more mid-lategame, isn't he? Because after that point, pretty much everybody can kite him to hell and back.

Saying you can kite Nasus implies that Nasus is teamfighting.

And I don't know why he would ever do that.

Sire Hippington2 votes

cause else his team gets trampled 5 vs 4? Splitpushing is a team effort, if the rest of the team doesn't play acordingly, it won't work. Also, nasus has no escapes, it's easy to collaps on him.

Zorasama4 votes

Late game Nasus can build full tank and still deals shit tons of damage. Late game Sion have to build tank and still can't kill anyone.

IcyPepper24 votes

That's probably because they're two different champions that do different things? o.O

Zorasama2 votes

My point is they both have hyper scaling and Nasus has strong late game while Sion gets weaker because he doesn't deal enough damage and his kit has too much counter play, and he still need to build tank to actually become tanky.

ABlueQuaker6 votes

One innately stacks Damage and the other innately stacks HP. The primary difference the Damage vs. Tankiness curve. Nasus gets Tanky early and then his Damage scales. Sion gets Damage early and then his Tankiness scales.

That said, their gameplay patterns are completely different anyway. It's like trying to compare AD and AP Nidalee. The difference in gameplay pattern is night and day regardless of any similarities in their kits.

KVbqbFsC8e4 votes

I guess because even tanks get melted when everyone has 6 items.

10Tickler2 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Big Piece,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=aXbRquhX,comment-id=000d,timestamp=2016-04-02T07:11:57.803+0000)

I guess because even tanks get melted when everyone has 6 items.

6 items.

6

item 3036

OR

item 3071

JQKAndrei1 votes

I'd say item 3153 is the most threatening against tanks like Sion.

lnstantCoffee1 votes

Just as much as Liandry's. But Liandry's is problematic since it doesn't work on all champions.

10Tickler1 votes

Liandry's is problimatic because LIKE EVELYNN'S ULTIMATE

It is incapable of killing.

From a Caster Minion to the Wolves to a Squishy Carry to the world's fattest Gragas, Liandry's passive damage scales in such a way that it is impossible to actually get a kill with it.

lnstantCoffee1 votes

That's not the problem. It still melts the tank's health to the point he has to run away. Couple it with a Rylai's and you'll ignore HP stacking tanks, at the cost of burst damage.

Dar Raksada1 votes

{quoted}

That's not the problem. It still melts the tank's health to the point he has to run away. Couple it with a Rylai's and you'll ignore HP stacking tanks, at the cost of burst damage.

I've never really felt endangered by a item 3151 2% current hp, or even 4% current hp isn't all that much compared to bork, especially considering most tanks will get +_100 magic resist without going out of their way to itemize for it. On most champions it doesn't do much either. It seems too niche, and because of the flat mpen it seems better suited against squishier champions.

runedara4 votes

He struggles in team fights. His q gets interrupted and his Ult is very hard to us against mobile champs. His passive late game is almost useless.

Abyssphere3 votes

I don't get the impression that Sion is supposed to be a hypercarry tank. His HP stacking is more about keeping him relevant late game than it is about making him extremely powerful late game. His kit is naturally suited to the early game (strong lane, easily dodged abilities that favour conditions where people have tier 1 boots or no boots at all) and becomes less and less impactful as the game goes on. The HP stacking is just there to stop him falling off completely.

Bearricane3 votes

If Sion was already in a strong position they couldn't buff him when the greatest skin ever comes out to encourage sales.

train sounds in the distance

packïn shmeat2 votes

Even though he scales he doesn't offer much in team fights. His knock up is kinda small and doesn't do much to knock up a damn tank

Ralanr4 votes

...The fuck are you smoking?

Whatever it is, get rid of it. It is clearly not healthy.

packïn shmeat1 votes

Looks at zorasamas post

Ralanr2 votes

Except he offers a lot in teamfights.

Wyrmblade2 votes

If Sion let's a game go to 30 minutes, then he's behind.

ImmortalBloodCY2 votes

Because of all those %HP dmg items.

If they were just 2, 1 for jungle and 1 for adc, he would be in far better spot.

A Liberal1 votes
ImTheRealGnar1 votes

Isn't Kindred suppose to be an early game jungler?

A Liberal3 votes

It's what she is, but it's not what shes supposed to be.

Come one now, shes a marksman with an infinite stacking %hp dmg mechanic, two things that indicate she should be a late game champion yet in practice she ends up being a q-burst assassin.

Slamurai Jack1 votes

Kindred is an early game snowballing jungler. The infinitely stacking portion of her passive is only infinite in theory and naturally declines in usefulness as the game goes on since it's current %hp damage and not total %hp. But it does make her snowball harder off early leads and help her end the game before her short ranged kit with its limited usefulness steroid falls off a cliff. It's not a infinitely stacking passive because she's meant to scale super well; it's just infinitely scaling because there's no good reason to cap it.

Maple Crusader1 votes

{quoted}

Isn't Kindred suppose to be an early game jungler?

Shaco LeeSin Nocturne Evelynn are early game junglers because they rely on causing as much havoc as possible to the enemy before they fall off because they are weaker in 5v5 teamfights.

As for Kindred, they seem more late-game. especially with their stacking passive.

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