@Riot Balance: What are the plans for other instant CC abilities?
So this is not a complaining or whining thread, im purely curious as to what the plans are now that you have created a new balance point: Instant CC. Note: Im not asking for nerfs for these champions, im just asking what are the plans for these abilities now that Instant CC is said to have no counter-play..... Secondary Note: Screw Fiddlesticks Terrify though... that ability is bull To the Community: If you can think of any other forms of Instant CC that you would like me to add to this list i will be happy to, just please give me some evidence and reasons as to why i should put them here (i will look into it myself but it would help me out).
Veigar's stun was given a delay because once you mastered it there was no counterplay to it. This is true for the most part and i am one of the very very few who dont have an issue with this (except for the cast time, that needs to be removed imo). So once i learned of that i started noticing other forms of CC that were instant and offered as much counterplay as Veigar stun. So here is what im looking at, abilities with Instant CC that doesn't have any counter-play. Abilities that require you to be within Melee range, like Alistar, have counter-play in that you just need to not let them get near you. Blitzcrank doesnt have much counter-play in his knock-up and silence, but those are dependent on his grab which does have counterplay. Basically anything with more then 500 range i will be looking at. So now you see what im looking at, lets get started.
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Annie's Pyromania is also instant and it even comes with damage. Some say "Well you need to build it up" and "She doesnt do Veigar amounts of damage". Well it requires little effort to get the stun, with her long range and damage she can poke and harass easily while she waits for her stun. As for her damage well instantly killing someone is instantly killing someone regardless of how much damage you do, Veigar's damage is higher so high its overkill, Annie's damage is just high. Annie still has 4 useful abilities in addition to her stun with more safety and less skill required in landing it.
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Fiddlestick's Terrify is a point and click 2.25 second fear. Other then spellshields and not being in range of him there is nothing you can do about it. All the same things that are considered counterplay to Veigar's old stun and Annie apply to Fiddles Terrify as well. Getting close to Fiddles while his Terrify is up is impossible due to his instant fear, in a team fight which currently will only last anywhere from 2-5 seconds, 2.25 seconds is a long time to be useless without having anyway to have outplayed it. I feel Fiddles is closer to Veigar then Annie since she doesnt require her stun to do damage if the enemy is close enough. Fiddles does need his fear so that they will stay in range of his Crowstorm and his Drain. Still, it is instant and a point and click targeted, which means it has less counterplay then Veigar where he could miss his.
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Lissandra's Frozen Tomb is an instant cast stun with the same counterplay as Veigar, Annie, and Fiddles. It is a targeted instant stun that also deals AoE damage to you and everyone around you. Its range is somewhat low but with her ability to teleport right next to you there is little to no trouble at all landing this ability in fact the fact she can teleport gives even less counterplay. Lissandra's damage combined with the fact she can remove someone from a fight for 1.5 seconds, which, like i mentioned early, is a long time specially when it also deals a good chunk of damage and has a great slow. Once you are low enough Lissandra will kill you, she will Glacial Path to you then boom ulted. The only counterplay is another instant CC that can stop her from teleporting or a silence.
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Lulu's Whimsy is an instant Polymorph, which is just a silence. This ability is the same as all the other abilities in that the counterplay is limited to Spell Shields/Cleanses and not being in range. The same as Fiddles this ability takes you out of the fight for 2.25 seconds making you unable to attack (unless you are Garen >:D) or cast spells. Combined with its long range and utility outside of combat this ability is really strong. Similar to Fiddles and Veigar though, it does not deal any damage which is one reason why its not overwhelmingly annoying, but that didnt stop Veigar's stun from being changed.
Edit: So SLAYER6752 has pointed out to me that Whimsy is actually a projectile, but from what i can tell its still too fast for you to even react to it if you can even notice it. -
Malzahar's Nether Grasp, this one hurts me to put because i main Malzahar and i know there is a ton of counter-play to it, but not everyone knows this so i have come to the conclusion this warrants him appearing on the list :(. Malzahar's ult does have a lot of counterplay, if you cast an interrupting form of CC at the same time he ults you will actually cancel the ability. The problem is when you have no CC, there is no counteplay other then Cleanses and being out of range (technically spellshields but any good Malz will Q first to remove it). 2.5 seconds you are completely removed from the battle and unlike a stun you are taking damage the entire time and Tenacity will not reduce this duration. Combined with his other abilities this thing will melt you so fast you have no clue what happened.
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Warwick's Infinite Duress is another suppress similar to Malzahar's. Warwicks is a little bit more risky then Malzahar's as it puts him right into the middle of a team, but the reason why i have decided to put this on the list is because of the fatty range he can teleport onto his target from. Just like Malzahar's Nether Grasp, this can be cancelled easily if you have the knowledge and means, but if you cant then there is nothing to do but sit there and watch your life go away. Now Warwick has been nerfed and is no longer the terror he once was, but that doesnt mean his instant suppress should be ignored.
There are other abilities like Cho'Gath's Feral Scream and Sona's Crescendo, but i feel those have a bit more counterplay to them despite being somewhat instant.
Now i do not believe any of these champions are OP and are in need of nerfs. I dont think or want their CC to be changed, but even though i personally like the Veigar changes, not everyone does. If you changed it so Malzahar's suppress had a delay im sure i would be up in arms looking for blood (not really id just stop playing him), but the point is these abilities suffer from the same lack of counterplay Veigar was changed for. So im just asking what are the plans for them? Have you looked at them and decided they were not as oppressive as Veigar's stun? Im sure a lot of people would disagree with that.
Edit: I think the Poll is being misunderstood, im not asking for Annie and Fiddles and Lissandra to have delays or to be nerfed. What im asking is "Should balance be consistent and equal across all champions?" Which is what i should have put instead but did not think of it. Sorry.
And then champions who Riot didn't balance well in the power budget:
The second set of champions were/are either OP or UP. Very little middle ground. (Granted Lucian got changed after release, kinda a champ rework and has been rather balanced after that)
really all you need if things were close). ect... They spent a LOT of time and money to try and come up with "strategic diversity". In some ways it has worked (the dragon buffs). But the main problem is, too many champs have basically the same kit. So why take
over
or
if they do basically the same thing? Too many champions have too many tools. So many are masters or strong in so many areas that the only difference is pure number based.
R is not likely to change. It's an ultimate. It's short ranged. Using it on an enemy comes at the cost of not having a Zhonya's effect for yourself. That's a lot of tradeoffs for a targeted stun. I would say this is the baseline for targeted stuns in the future, in fact.
R will almost certainly become an "Annie throws Tibbers" sort of animation at some point. Just waiting on the art and animation resources becoming available, most likely.
Q is a really strong button, but it's going to be extremely hard to make his kit work without that button being strong. Difficult design problem here if you hold "no targeted hard CC on non-ultimate skills" as a design value.
W is maybe not such a big deal, because the champion is still afforded movement. It's more like a better silence than a worse stun. I suspect this will stay for at least the near future.
R seems fine, for similar reasons as Lissandra. It leaves Malz quite vulnerable, it's short ranged, it's got pretty decent counterplay.
R is a good candidate for change, although it could also stay. The main thing here is that so much of Warwick's power budget is tied up in that ult that the rest of his stuff feels pretty meh. A long time ago, Riot posted a paper kit on Warwick that had less ultimate power and in exchange game him an aoe fear and a Quinn-style leap and claw thing. Seemed way more fun to me.