is supposed to be a way for AP champ to deal with tanks, but its frankly really bad compared to what AD champs have to deal with tanks, like 
and
granted i really have no idea how to fix this, maybe start 3% or 4% it at instead of 2% and THEN double it on a slow. idk it just seems rather weak..
SkyblazeHydraX38 votesRiot knows Liandry's Torment isn't in a good place. It's like the old Black Cleaver, that had both flat penetration and % armor reduction, making it just as good at facilitating squishy bursting as it was at tank melting, and thus it had to be balanced so it wasn't ideal for either. Thus Black Cleaver was reworked into a fighter-based item specializing strictly in fighting armor-heavy enemies.
Liandry's has the same problem, but because of the current AP itemization- or lack thereof- they can't rework Liandry's to specialize in one or the other without leaving a gap in itemization. Long story short, I'll practically guarantee you it's going to get reworked during the Mage update, which will introduce other items to fill the gap a more specialized Liandry's leaves behind.
Dengeden8 votes is bad too and can only be bought on champs whose kit support it ... exactly like
foinhas7 votesi agree with this. mages are supposed to shread tanks. right now they can only tap them in the back be done with it
SwiftKitten8829 votesi agree with this. mages are supposed to shread tanks. right now they can only tap them in the back be done with it
well maybe not SHRED tanks.. but if we buy an item specially made to use vs tanks i feel it should at least do its job properly.
HadesBlades3 votesIf they decreased the price to 2700 and its build into it 
reduced to 1400, it while increasing the passive to 3% instead of 2% maybe people would actually use it. But why rush it when there are just better options that aren't as expensive or have easier components of it to reach?
AlwaysByMySide13 votesi agree with this. mages are supposed to shread tanks.
Who told you this lie?
Mages are supposed to generally be bad at killing tanks.
Moulin Rouge7 votes[{quoted}](name=Memeglaive Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=aTvwfO1j,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2016-03-11T00:45:48.344+0000)
Who told you this lie?
Mages are supposed to generally be bad at killing tanks.
Except they're currently bad at killing ADC too....and bruisers. Maybe juggernauts if they don't rush a hex.
YumaS2Astral13 votes[{quoted}](name=Memeglaive Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=aTvwfO1j,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2016-03-11T00:45:48.344+0000)
Who told you this lie?
Mages are supposed to generally be bad at killing tanks.
Mages are supposed to be bad against tanks if they are burst mages, and good if they are DPS mages.
cuddlykitten41 votesStill wrong. Those DPS mages you see doing good against the tanks are doing it because they equipped a . That's it's actual job. To give a dot to help the mage rack up that last little bit of damage they would need to kill the tank if they played the fight correctly and kited it the right way.
Troll for Trump1 votesWhat? 
has base DoT on his passive, and is supposed to Wear down tanks pretty quickly
heals off them
has percent HP damage too
These are the primary 3
has trouble vs tanks, but he's not really a DoT mage, more like some burst DPS bruiser thing
cuddlykitten41 votesDPS and DoT are not the same thing. Same is percentage health damage is not the same as DPS. DPS literally means damage per second. Anything that does high amounts of damage is considered high DPS regardless of form. Percentage health damage is what eats tanks. Hence me saying that they take Liandry's for the (now pay attention closely here) DoT that IS percentage health damage. Brand's passive is basically a beefcaked Liandry's. Same as Malzahar. It's not that they are high DPS toons, it's that they hit percent health, just like the liandry's that i said they take for that exact job. As for swain, he's doing it off his ability to stay alive. Heals tend to reject tanks ultimately, hence why ADCs do so well against them since they build LS. You even said it yourself, Ryze doesn't do so hot against tanks because he doesn't have those attributes. It's not that your examples prove that that's not the case, you picked the ones who were made to be exceptions, and fill niche spots.
1 800 MID LANE1 votesAgreed. DPS is how much damage you put out in any given time - that given time being seconds. Some mages like Syndra, Lux, and Xerath have spikes of DPS and then it falls off significantly or entirely drop to 0 for a period of time. Others like Cassiopeia, Azir, or Twisted Fate have smaller spikes, but stronger steady DPS. When played properly, their damage should never fall off much.
DoT is a phrase to directly describe the way a particular ability acts. It still puts out DPS, but it's describing one ability OR what a particular champion's DPS relies on. Think debuffs rather than constant abilities being cast. Brand, Malzahar, and Swain all rely heavily on DoT abilities to deal DPS. Cassiopeia does as a technicality, but a very small amount of her damage is coming from her DoT abilities.
OverpoweredSoap9 votesi agree with this. mages are supposed to shread tanks. right now they can only tap them in the back be done with it
The only AP champions that should shred tanks are heavy DPS mages, like 
and kinda etc.
Shinirup2 votes + Deathfire + Rylais + His passive. Though still need voids right after. But he doesn't scale that well with AP. And yeah Cass has the problem of getting the most out of her passive. Given only 80 ap, and though she scales bad with ap, the extra percent from her new and obnoxious passive (building stacks is a pain, hate playing her now) always feels wasted if one doesn't. Plus the burn doesn't help for healing on e.
cuddlykitten41 votesLol, it's a discussion about Liandry's and you mentioned the most Liandry's synergizing mage in the game without saying htat he should equip it....even with Rylais in the mix. XD
Shinirup1 votesI thought given the topic is about Liandry's and the post that it replied to about who it is good on, that it was already included without mentioning.
Over Innsmouth7 votes
just to add to the etc.
Verdade4 votesVel isn't going to kill tanks, sure he has true damage but he's too combo and burst oriented
FurryBiscuittt1 votesLiandries is a good supplement for champs that deal aoe magic damage but don't build full damage items or don't quite scale as well with AP. I would prefer they don't alter it. If AP champs shredding tanks is desired I think they need to lean more towards altering void staff.
Vel isn't going to kill tanks, sure he has true damage but he's too combo and burst oriented
Not per se, but he is going to attempt to poke you before a fight starts. Liandries is amazing with his Q. You're not losing much by building it vs another item as his bases are high and ratios are low as well as AP not boosting his true damage. If he has liandries and void staff he can take a sizeable chunk out of a tank before the fight even starts.
Even if he doesn't get to poke the collateral damage on unfocused targets is still significant. Zyra can fall in a similar boat.
Verdade1 votesYeah, Q works pretty well with Liandry's, and so does R, but look at it this way As a Vel'koz there are much better items to get
Sorc boots - huge early power spike, very cheap, MRpen is Vel's strongest stat Guise - again, MRpen and it's very cheap for its damage bonus. Upgrading to Guise requires tons of gold and you get only low AP and burn, burn might be good but AP just sucks. Luden's - increases Q damage by like 40%, strong synergy with MRpen Void staff - more MRpen, with sorcs, guise and runes allows dealing true damage to champions with <80 MR
Support Vel goes Sightstone like 2nd or 3rd item, depending on situation Mid Vel usually goes for Morello CDR and regen
Usual full Vel's build looks like this Sorcs Luden's Liandry's Morello Void staff Frostfang sightstone/zhonya's/utility item
So while Liandry works, there are items with much higher priority. So its good but its not that required or core item.
As for Zyra and Brand, they are excellent Liandry users, both are pretty decent supports with tons of collateral damage. Liandry+Rylai is very good here.
ltmetal5 votesLiandry's Torment has always been in a very weird spot, combining stats, passives, and keywords that don't seem to go together. It's very useful on AP bruisers, an underserved class for about 4 seasons now that hasn't done well outside of the occasional 
or 
. Comparing Liandry's build path to any item providing flat armor penetration leaves AP bruisers unable to keep up with AD bruisers.
I would love to see Haunting Guise brought in line with Serrated Dirk. If AP bruisers could feel better about building Haunting Guise because it were decent to rush and built into multiple items, that would be a dream come true.
Nekusen4 votesforgot 
L Psy Kongroo4 votesI'll bet anyone any kind of money that Riot will completely ignore AP itemization for another season and buff AD even more.
Shinirup3 votesI am hoping they address it with the mage update mid year. Or whenever they said it was coming.
Zantumall3 votesThe problem with buffing Liandry's right now is that the item is actually pretty strong in general, it's just not specialized well. It's the same problem that old Black Cleaver had - the %hp damage says "kill tanks" and the flat pen says "kill squishies", so the item ends up decent against everyone instead of being actually strong in any particular niche. They couldn't just straight up buff it without it becoming too good. It'd be better to split it into two items, I feel like - one with flat pen for killing squishy targets more effectively and one with the %hp burn (and maybe some kind of %mr shred or %pen?) for tanky targets. That'd make it easier to balance both of them in their particular niches.
Sire Hippington3 votesI think it would be enough to give it always full damage and not only with slow. It just feels like you always need rylais with it outside of a few champs. or finally change it to %max health or missing health, rather than a current health dot for usually bursty casters. It really doesn't help to have a %current health dot if you burst your opponent to 50% health befor the fisrt tick.
Or just add a new item with the dot vs tanks and give liandrys something new, cause heaveing the anti tank item also beeing the flat pen item, a stat that is mostly vs squishys, is quite contradictory, kinda like the old Blackcleaver building out of Brutalizer, giving flatpen and ad to kill squishys aswell as the %shred to deal with tanks. As a result, current liandrys will probably never be really strong, as it either is a go to item that kills squishys and tanks alike, or it's like now rather mehh at both.
Overlord Forte2 votesI've pondered this for a while and I've wondered if an effect like this would do the job:
The intention is to emphasize it's DoT nature and also overcome an intrinsic problem to applying DoTs. Essentially, when a DoT is applied, it's near inhumanly impossible to 'perfectly refresh' it, so that it goes [3 seconds -> 0, ability -> 3 seconds]. More often than not, multiple abilities hit, overlapping, or otherwise refresh without extracting maximum potential damage. You commonly get 4-6 seconds out of most mage rotations, then it drops as all abilities come back.
I wonder, if by allowing regular spells and AoE (but no DoTs, like Brand's Passive or Cassiopeia's Poison) to stack Liandry burn counters, we can overcome this problem. Essentially, DPS mages can repeatedly hit their spells without worrying about wasting Liandry's burn passive (until a point). This would mean that through prolonged combat, DPS mages will melt down high HP enemies, but the Liandry's passive itself will do pretty much nothing against low HP carries. Mathematically, Liandry's out damages Void Staff after about 9-12 seconds in combat, which is something squishies almost never survive to if they're constantly being hit.
Tanks, on the other hand, well ...
Abyssphere2 votesJust increase the damage by 50%. 3% doubling to 6% would be nice.
Shinirup2 votesI have long wondered. Is Liandry's damage effected by MR given it is still magic damage?
Dan Abnormal3 votesyes
Shinirup1 votes[{quoted}](name=Dan Abnormal,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=aTvwfO1j,comment-id=00070000,timestamp=2016-03-11T03:59:34.477+0000)
yes
So with everyone tanky and even many of those who aren't supposed to be, building a ton of MR. It is basically not tank shredding at all? Unless you build every item to be anti tank. Void + Abyssal + Liandrees + Boots.
edit: And thank you for answering.
charcharmunro4 votesSame thing applies to . It's made to counter health-stacking, not armor-stacking.
ParaBellam2 votesMake it into two different versions.
Version A has % magic penetration with the current DoT passive (maybe a bit stronger?). Obviously catered to dealing with tanks. Version B has flat magic penetration with the passive: After 3 spells/instaces of damage on a target, deal 8% of their maximum health. Cooldown of, say, 8 seconds. Obviously numbers have to be tuned up a bit.
Version B is better against squishies, A is better against tanks.
Profirix2 votesThe best buff to that item would be to give it a minimum damage. Why they allow it to do '0' damage on ticks is beyond me.
SirHeavyScrotum2 votesI think you might be seeing it as weak because you might be building it on the right people. Liandry's is specifically supposed to be built on DoT champs, or champs with very spammable abilities to keep reapplying the burn. It's pretty dang strong on those people, but not on people that only deal damage occasionally. Also Duskblade is definitely not a tank buster item, it's a squishy killer. Bursts of damage don't kill tanks, otherwise they're not tanks.
Back to the original discussion, you should probably only build it on people like . If you're building it on champs like 
it's gonna feel pretty lack luster because it's not suited to their kit. If the champ is suited to use it though it feels pretty strong to me.
JESUSSAYSNO2 votesAs a vlad and amumu player, this item is absurdly good. It's balanced around its synergy with Rylai's, and it does its job perfectly. It is a niche item for DoT and sustained damage mages who can maintain the passive at all times. The second you buff this item's burn is the second that you need to nerf a good cunk of champions who already gain huge powerspikes from it.
EcchiOtakuTM1 votesAll they need to do is remove deathcap and hourglass then bring witchcap to 5s and increase APs slightly
Nekusen4 votesAll they need to do is remove deathcap and hourglass then bring witchcap to 5s and increase APs slightly
that video is wrong, those items dont need removal, you get deathcap when you want raw damage, and requires you to have already built damage to begin with. hourglass is the equivalent of QSS for ap, what AP needs is more variety, not less, witchcap could be added with those items, moonflair could be added too.
EcchiOtakuTM1 votesIf witchcap came to 5s there'd be less complaints that AP have terrible itemization.
Zantumall3 votesNo, there wouldn't. The problem with AP itemization right now is lack of compelling options for specializing, not the items that exist being too weak. Adding Witchcap would remove the decision making about whether or not to buy a Zhonya's, because it'd be rolled right into the most important core AP item. It would not, for instance, make AD itemization better to combine Hexdrinker and Infinity Edge. It might make AD itemization more powerful, but it would limit choices instead of expanding them.
The Deckowner1 votesThe issue of liandrys is that it does dot dmg, and the %dmg is much less than BORK, while BORK is instant dmg and has a very good active. honestly i dont even feel liandrys's DOT in game at all, it barely breaks through mr and hp regen/lifesteal.
FurryBiscuittt2 votes[{quoted}](name=The Deckowner,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=aTvwfO1j,comment-id=001d,timestamp=2016-03-11T18:01:21.749+0000)
The issue of liandrys is that it does dot dmg, and the %dmg is much less than BORK, while BORK is instant dmg and has a very good active. honestly i dont even feel liandrys's DOT in game at all, it barely breaks through mr and hp regen/lifesteal.
I think you would be quite suprised if liandries had a damage counter on it.
The Deckowner1 votesthere is. if u look carefully purple numbers appear on the debuffed enemy showing magic dmg dealt from liandrys.
not significane numbers.
FurryBiscuittt1 votes[{quoted}](name=The Deckowner,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=aTvwfO1j,comment-id=001d00000000,timestamp=2016-03-11T18:09:50.988+0000)
there is. if u look carefully purple numbers appear on the debuffed enemy showing magic dmg dealt from liandrys.
not significane numbers.
I ment a total damage counter for the passive on the item itself, much like support items have a gold accrued from passive.
The Deckowner1 votesthe number will be so vague, poke mages spam abilities a lot and showing the total number of dmg dealt by this item is kinda pointless because it's DOT and often.not result in anything gained, while gold income items just shows u how nuch gold u got, which is countable, usable and not vague
MyTeamIsAwsome1 votesI knew praple loved teemo. Indirect buff is awsome for him 😊
Tusutaki1 votesBotRK is a mediocre item. If it had 8% current HP shred then I would agree and Dusk's primary use is against carries.
Torment is at a decent spot with the buff that it desperately needed. Just like BotRK, it's primary functions are used against tanks and it works fine just as that.
RoodToob1 votesJust for the record, isn't supposed to melt mr stacking full on tanks. Its made to melt those who stack health without getting much resistances. Granted unless your kit supports this item well, it's not really worth getting then either, and if your kit does support it, you get it all the time anyway
Oerba No Naja1 votesriot cant do it because of this asshole
