Tanks and Healers - The Decommissioned Ships of League

GreyfellD··49 votes·14,906 views

Seriously, the amount of damage is ridiculous. Speaking as a support main, you don't get time to heal/shield people anymore before one shot boom and they are dead at late game. AD champions are worst offenders at this and I cannot seem to make people understand that blowing people up in one shot, may feel good for you but its just going to frustrate the other team and potentially make Riot lose people. The amount of reaction time needed these days is absurd and Riot needs to understand that we are not all Korean and make this game fun again across ALL skill levels and not just the top 10% of the game.

The only ridiculously tanky champions I see these days are champions like Darius that seem to get the best of both worlds. If you compare this to naval combat. You have Dreadnoughts (Tanks) and you have Battleships (Bruisers), why would you ever need a dreadnought when a Battleship has...

  • More mobility - Fiora & Camille
  • More damage and quicker reload (resets) - Darius
  • Good CC on a low cooldown - Aatrox

Literally the ONLY reason you can take a tank these days is for large AOE CC, like Maokai or Malphite but most supports & mages can do that easily and be MORE useful (looking at you Neeko and Pyke) so the main strength of a tank has been taken away by overloaded terrible new champions.

So what edge do tanks hold now?

Since Vayne exists and is getting free buffs to appease ADC mains of her and can easily melt tanks. (An anti-tank ADC is ridiculous in my opinion since ADC's naturally counter tanks anyway and are supposed to do their damage from relative safety and capable of kiting) then the "Dreadnought" class has been pushed far and far into the backgrounds to make ways for Battleships.

Yet Riot seem to think that overpowering Ornn will fix the issue when the problem is a MUCH larger one and tanks will continue to be irrelevant. They can occasionally work but also pro-players pick them as well which means that Riot have to keep them weak, look at what they've just done to Sejuani because of pro-play. Tanks will never be as balanced as they can be. (They can be devastating if used if used in a coordinated team but not in solo Q so Riot has the choice of keeping them a "pro only" class they need to continually tweak around with or change their function so they can be used universally)

There are only a few solutions I can suggest

  • Nerf the damage of everything bar champion kits (Items, Summoner spells, runes)
  • Rework Vayne so that she doesn't destroy tanks with 0 effort. (Suggestion: Vayne is a HUNTER so what about a kit that allows her to easily pick off isolated enemies, kinda like an ADC version of Kha'zix... I don't know, I'm not a designer but nothing about her screams "Giant-killer" or "Anti-tank" anyway)
  • Reduce the game changing nature of tank CC so its not as desirable or more "niche" for pro-play rather then a necessity.
  • Give tanks the unique cross-tank ability that they can produce auras (I know Riot, you hate them but they DO serve a purpose in other games and could help here) that buff other champions so it feels like they are more "Command ships" then worthless "Dreadnoughts" drastically improving their usefulness.

I cannot take credit for the idea of giving tanks "Auras" because I've seen it in Star Trek: Online. That game also had a massive problem with damage creep and DPS was the only important thing in the game. Cryptic tried to remedy this by reducing damage and providing their tank class of ship (Cruisers) with the ability to use a comm array, to increase their value in combat and buff other ships in battle. It was a clever idea and I'm suggesting that the same thing could work here since Riot are never going to nerf damage down clearly but it would allow tanks to serve a more useful purpose in teamfights.

55 Comments

Yets424015 votes

Tanks used to be balanced around things like AoE armor/MR/HP regen auras, AoE healing/shielding, attack speed and movement speed slows everywhere in their items (previously at higher percentages, and longer duration than what remains today) as well as simply more health, armor, etc from their items themselves. Any steps towards addressing their itemization may help tremendously.

Exin03 votes

{quoted}

Stop acting like tanks are weak. THERE IS EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE OF TANKS PERFORMING WELL WITHIN SCOPE OF BALANCED. https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/chogath/euw/top/diamond https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/overview/maokai/euw/top/diamond https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/overview/sion/euw/top/diamond https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/overview/poppy/euw/top/diamond https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/overview/malphite/euw/top/diamond

And same can be said about supports https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/overview/sona/euw/support/diamond https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/overview/nami/euw/support/diamond https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/overview/soraka/euw/support/diamond https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/overview/janna/euw/support/diamond https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/overview/lulu/euw/support/diamond

I am so fucking tired of reading same lies every fucking day on forums. Tanks arent weak, they FINALLY go even with fighters. Healers arent weak as well, THEY ARE FINALLY EVEN, with much more skill based supports.

There was x posts about vayne winrate skyrocketing to 54%+ also dev made post to refute this and show their numbers, for them she was on 51% WR. Tell me who has right numbers? I dont know, so i use my own games as metric and for me personaly is Lee Sin infesting every game he is not baned and doing good more busted than allegedly OP Malphite who i play probably 3 times againt in half of year.

SuffocateMeDaddy2 votes

Have you ever though that tanks are not played because, wait for it, BECAUSE THEY ARE FUCKING BORING? Honestly why does everyone consider popularity of tanks the metric for their usefulness? During tank meta, when not playing tank gave you -10% chance of winning as top laner, their pick rate was at best rivaling fighters. Seriously think about it. League of legends is PVP only competitive game. I am not expecting that 100% of players want to be the STAR the CARRY of their team. I am saying that good 70% of player base is like. How can you expect tanks to be popular then? Tanks are class of champions that reward competitive spirit the least. If they are somehow as popular as carry roles, do you not see the fucking issue there?

Fraggleroc10 votes

{quoted}

Have you ever though that tanks are not played because, wait for it, BECAUSE THEY ARE FUCKING BORING? Honestly why does everyone consider popularity of tanks the metric for their usefulness? During tank meta, when not playing tank gave you -10% chance of winning as top laner, their pick rate was at best rivaling fighters. Seriously think about it. League of legends is PVP only competitive game. I am not expecting that 100% of players want to be the STAR the CARRY of their team. I am saying that good 70% of player base is like. How can you expect tanks to be popular then? Tanks are class of champions that reward competitive spirit the least. If they are somehow as popular as carry roles, do you not see the fucking issue there?

dude there r people who enjoy playing tanky characters. I play tanks in WoW n other mmos... and champs like Braum r great fun.

SuffocateMeDaddy1 votes

Do you read at all? I didnt say nobody enjoys tanks, I said small part of community enjoys tanks. This isnt MMO, this isnt PVE game. This is PVP ONLY COMPETITIVE GAME. Stop trying to imply your feelings as facts. Statistics are showing clearly that no matter how overpowered tanks are, they will never be popular simply because tanks are boring to majority of pvp players.

reaper40421 votes

Well that and solo que doesnt promote team play, of which tanks are extremely team reliant

Exin03 votes

{quoted}

Have you ever though that tanks are not played because, wait for it, BECAUSE THEY ARE FUCKING BORING? Honestly why does everyone consider popularity of tanks the metric for their usefulness? During tank meta, when not playing tank gave you -10% chance of winning as top laner, their pick rate was at best rivaling fighters. Seriously think about it. League of legends is PVP only competitive game. I am not expecting that 100% of players want to be the STAR the CARRY of their team. I am saying that good 70% of player base is like. How can you expect tanks to be popular then? Tanks are class of champions that reward competitive spirit the least. If they are somehow as popular as carry roles, do you not see the fucking issue there?

sincerely i dont know what you are trying to explain me i your post, like everyone want live their assassins creed fantasy? Of course they are boring Riot sprinkle antitank things all over the game and nerf tanking and full ap malphite aka walking ult isnt example of tank. And dont forget game is constantly pushed to snowballing and one man army so naturaly team dependant champs are cucked. I never said tank are weak or not usefull but they are in bad spot beacuse direct and indirect nerfs toward class and gameplay. You have one champion with 26%pick rate and over 20% banrate against something with 1% pick and 0% ban, which one do you thing is in bad spot and should be fixed?

SuffocateMeDaddy1 votes

The one that makes top lane insufferable. The fact that tanks are terrible carry champions is even more insulting because when you pick them, you arent even trying to win the game, you are only not allowing your opponent to play. I couldnt care less about fighters being overpowered because most of them allow you to play the game aside from few individuals AHEM Renekton Teemo Gnar Heimerdinger Kennen . Those champions are not allowing you to play the game, either by poking you from safe distance or by stunning you for a god damn year. Difference however is that tanks SPECIALIZE AT NOT LETTING YOU PLAY. Wanna push? well to bad I am standing under tower with my incredible wave clear that riot gave me for fuck knows what reason and if you try to hit my tower im gona burst you with my extremly powerful long CD base damages. Oh you wanted to run away from gank? let me just stuck lock you for fucking eternity. I would rather play against 70% win rate riven, knowing that I will be able to play my game than 30% wr malphite because I know that as melee bruiser main, once he buys this item 3110, I do not exist in the game anymore.

Exin03 votes

{quoted}

The one that makes top lane insufferable. The fact that tanks are terrible carry champions is even more insulting because when you pick them, you arent even trying to win the game, you are only not allowing your opponent to play. I couldnt care less about fighters being overpowered because most of them allow you to play the game aside from few individuals AHEM Renekton Teemo Gnar Heimerdinger Kennen . Those champions are not allowing you to play the game, either by poking you from safe distance or by stunning you for a god damn year. Difference however is that tanks SPECIALIZE AT NOT LETTING YOU PLAY. Wanna push? well to bad I am standing under tower with my incredible wave clear that riot gave me for fuck knows what reason and if you try to hit my tower im gona burst you with my extremly powerful long CD base damages. Oh you wanted to run away from gank? let me just stuck lock you for fucking eternity. I would rather play against 70% win rate riven, knowing that I will be able to play my game than 30% wr malphite because I know that as melee bruiser main, once he buys this item 3110, I do not exist in the game anymore.

why always hyperbole and istn that whole point of counterpicking? i get it you wish to play bruisers 24/7 with your definition of fun.

SuffocateMeDaddy1 votes

Tanks arent counter picks. Tanks are road bumps. Counterpicking means you are going to destroy your lane opponent. Not slow him down, and if you are lucky enough youll slow him down enough he wont be able to play the game at all. Jax is counterpick to Camille, she will never beat jax, not in early game not in mid game not in lategame. EVERYONE BEATS TANKS lategame.

Exin02 votes

{quoted}

Tanks arent counter picks. Tanks are road bumps. Counterpicking means you are going to destroy your lane opponent. Not slow him down, and if you are lucky enough youll slow him down enough he wont be able to play the game at all. Jax is counterpick to Camille, she will never beat jax, not in early game not in mid game not in lategame. EVERYONE BEATS TANKS lategame.

ok we can talk about conterpicking all day everyone understand it differently like you say you are main bruiser yet bruiser inst any class in game you have juggernauts and divers, bruiser is invented all encompasing class to justify some BS. What you really want, nerf tanks? delete them? buff antitank? Riot is step by step reworking tanks to juggernauts so if you wait you get your wish fullfiled and tanks get deleted from game if that will be right decision that will remain to be seen.

SuffocateMeDaddy2 votes

Jesus fucking christ. Do you know what I want? To rebalance tanks. To make them less of an issue in early game and worse play makers. To make laning experience feels better than wanting to cut my own dick. And do you know how to do that? Yeah remove tanks. Make every single tank a bruiser or diver. Nerf their base damages across the boards. Nerf their lane sustain. Nerf their CC. Buff the ratios. Why are tanks allowed to outduel fighters on lvl 9 just because they put 5 points into Q? Why are tanks allowed to win teamfight with single lucky skillshot or just single point click ult? Why dont you guys want your class to be balanced properly. Why do you want tanks to be this annoying bully that grows up into loser and only relies on his parents to fix things for him before its too late?

JJI7445 votes

The majority of the enchanter supports are doing quite well just now. Like Sona, Nami, Zilean, Soraka, Janna, and Taric are all some of the best performing champions in the game.

Tanks are harder to say, as its not easily agreed upon what qualifies as a tank. Right now you have Sion and Rammus as tanks doing well, with a few other champs that blur the line.

BlueBilberry4 votes

Well, healers and shielders should be included together as those which have been phased out most of last season. I should also note that self-heals seem to have not been nerfed - which is probably skewing a lot of the data which Riot is working with. (I've seen games where I have played a Soraka - turned out a huge amount of healing, only to see that the self-healers are doing more than the champs that are designed to heal others.

Saezio2 votes

{quoted}

Well, healers and shielders should be included together as those which have been phased out most of last season. I should also note that self-heals seem to have not been nerfed - which is probably skewing a lot of the data which Riot is working with. (I've seen games where I have played a Soraka - turned out a huge amount of healing, only to see that the self-healers are doing more than the champs that are designed to heal others.

Idk, tanks have been pretty irrelevant too. Maybe they still are picked in some competitive but their play rate in D1/Masters/Challengers has gone down quite a bit.

Flashes1 votes

{quoted}

Well, healers and shielders should be included together as those which have been phased out most of last season. I should also note that self-heals seem to have not been nerfed - which is probably skewing a lot of the data which Riot is working with. (I've seen games where I have played a Soraka - turned out a huge amount of healing, only to see that the self-healers are doing more than the champs that are designed to heal others.

Sylas

Thefrostyviking4 votes

Marksmen naturally counters tanks?

DAFQ are you on about?

OP you have clearly not ever tried playing botlane seriously.

You cant say shit about marksmen´s relationship with tanks until you suicide trying to kill the enemy rammus on Ashe/cait, until you realize that Mundo is regaining more health than you are doing damage.

Until you get 100´d by a malphite doing a max range ult or you watch Sion break down 3 of your towers before you finally manage to get through his healthbar and stop his passive......provided he doesnt kill you first that is.

10000 HP cho gath just shrugging of your attacks like nothing, enemy nautilus running you down with insane base movespeed using his point and click tricks&fat hook to stomp you down, or fatty grag.

Shen poping his barrier and just laughing at you as his entire team dances inside the circle, or ontop of your corpse as you die a moment later having done 0 damage.

Helplessly trying to do anything to that alistar who is spamming laugh as you fail to do any damage to him while he ults.....while using a AP build, or that full tank leo doing 60% of your max health before you even get off her chainstun combo.

OP if you are able to claim that marksmen counters tanks then you have clearly seen none of these, the average marksman gets absolutely wrecked by tanks, they become completely useless and look about as useful as a bottle of salt water in the middle of the dead sea.

The only viable marksmen after the tank update were Kog, Varus, Twitch and Tristana for a reason, they are the only marksmen in the entire game who are truly good when tanks are strong.

Ashe was useless as shit, Jhin was trash, MF didnt exist, Vayne´s range was too short, scaled too slowly to be of any use and she was too squishy even with peel, Lucian didnt do enough damage to be worth a fart.

Other marksmen? Only Xayah existed as some form of early game cheese that still had some ability midgame but she was called a cheese pick too and was nerfed after.

Furthermore, Vayne buffs to appease marksmen? Man no one asked for Vayne buffs, she was legit one of the only "alright" ones sitting at a fairly high playrate but just below 50% winrate which was ....alright.

No one wanted some buff to help her be a better assassin, if tank killing was the issue then buffing her range or her W would have been easy but instead her assassination abilities were the ones buffed.

"Edit"

I figure i should mention this but the average crit marksman needs a full build to deal with a enemy tank that rolls thornmail+extra armor, the reason being that they to deal with this need 3 crit items, 1 lifesteal one for the thornmail and 1 armor pen, having to reach full build to deal with a tank is just far far tooo slow to the point where they are negotiable until that point.

Anyone remember that video with a Draven at 2-3 items hitting a poppy like 30 times and still not killing her?

Mages that use liandries or melee with conqueror are worlds superior at dealing with tanks compared to the average marksman, its not until you take in specialists like Vayne/Kog/varus that it even becomes a competition but on the other hand toplane has Fiora and Darius, midlane has malzahar and cassio.........pretty sure botlane is actually one of the weakest roles when it comes to dealing with a strong tank.

"End of edit".

Iota Theta3 votes

{quoted}

Marksmen naturally counters tanks?

DAFQ are you on about?

OP you have clearly not ever tried playing botlane seriously.

You cant say shit about marksmen´s relationship with tanks until you suicide trying to kill the enemy rammus on Ashe/cait, until you realize that Mundo is regaining more health than you are doing damage.

Until you get 100´d by a malphite doing a max range ult or you watch Sion break down 3 of your towers before you finally manage to get through his healthbar and stop his passive......provided he doesnt kill you first that is.

10000 HP cho gath just shrugging of your attacks like nothing, enemy nautilus running you down with insane base movespeed using his point and click tricks&fat hook to stomp you down, or fatty grag.

Shen poping his barrier and just laughing at you as his entire team dances inside the circle, or ontop of your corpse as you die a moment later having done 0 damage.

Helplessly trying to do anything to that alistar who is spamming laugh as you fail to do any damage to him while he ults.....while using a AP build, or that full tank leo doing 60% of your max health before you even get off her chainstun combo.

OP if you are able to claim that marksmen counters tanks then you have clearly seen none of these, the average marksman gets absolutely wrecked by tanks, they become completely useless and look about as useful as a bottle of salt water in the middle of the dead sea.

The only viable marksmen after the tank update were Kog, Varus, Twitch and Tristana for a reason, they are the only marksmen in the entire game who are truly good when tanks are strong.

Ashe was useless as shit, Jhin was trash, MF didnt exist, Vayne´s range was too short, scaled too slowly to be of any use and she was too squishy even with peel, Lucian didnt do enough damage to be worth a fart.

Other marksmen? Only Xayah existed as some form of early game cheese that still had some ability midgame but she was called a cheese pick too and was nerfed after.

Furthermore, Vayne buffs to appease marksmen? Man no one asked for Vayne buffs, she was legit one of the only "alright" ones sitting at a fairly high playrate but just below 50% winrate which was ....alright.

No one wanted some buff to help her be a better assassin, if tank killing was the issue then buffing her range or her W would have been easy but instead her assassination abilities were the ones buffed.

It’s how it’s supposed to be though. Rammus and Malphite are exceptions being massive armor scalers, and Mundo you just buy GW and take that healing of his down a lot. If Malph is bursting you, probably the AP build and not tank.

But that was what things were built on. ADCs, the DPS class, are supposed to be the best tank killers, and ADCs die to burst mages and assassins. Tanks have the base damages to counter the base defenses of squishies, so perhaps ADCs should actually buy lifesteal or other defensive items, pick up an LDR or Mortal Reminder while they’re at it. Just because ADCs started building more for burst with crit or lethality and less actual tank busting items doesn’t mean ADCs aren’t supposed to counter tanks. If they aren’t, who are? That’s the natural order of things.

Thefrostyviking2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Iota Theta,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=aMBbXtFo,comment-id=00060000,timestamp=2019-01-14T11:42:28.912+0000)

It’s how it’s supposed to be though. Rammus and Malphite are exceptions being massive armor scalers, and Mundo you just buy GW and take that healing of his down a lot. If Malph is bursting you, probably the AP build and not tank.

Indeed it is how it is supposed to be, as in marksmen do not beat tanks normally.

And Mundo´s ult has been balanced to heal a ton even through GW as he is useless otherwise, now GW is just a baseline requirment to even stand a chance at dealing with him.

And malp can easily 1v1 a marksman like Ashe/cait even with a full tank build up to 4 items or so, because they are glass cannos that cant endure any damage on their own.

Its what makes vayne/Lucian/kai´sa so strong by comparison, they have means to avoid damage thus they might survive and do damage making them far more powerful when compared.

But that was what things were built on. ADCs, the DPS class, are supposed to be the best tank killers, and ADCs die to burst mages and assassins. Tanks have the base damages to counter the base defenses of squishies, so perhaps ADCs should actually buy lifesteal or other defensive items, pick up an LDR or Mortal Reminder while they’re at it. Just because ADCs started building more for burst with crit or lethality and less actual tank busting items doesn’t mean ADCs aren’t supposed to counter tanks. If they aren’t, who are? That’s the natural order of things.

Except the issue here is that you need 3 crit items to effectively use crit at all, that leaves 1 slot for lifesteal and 1 for armor pen and 1 for boots, i personally tried only using 2 but it wasnt good, not even on Ashe who doesnt crit the normal way.

And so do you see any room for defensive items in a crit build? Me neither, which is why crit marksmen generally are massive hit or miss cases that flunder extremely in performance but generally sink very quickly against tanks until they have 5 items+ boots,,,,or full build rather.

Full build to be any good? A counter? Might as well pick Cassio/malz, get liandry&rylai early and just melt the tanks in 10 seconds, end the game at 4 items before the marksmen even know what is going on.

Other option for the marksmen is to use a onhit build but only a few can actually use those effectively, like kog/vayne/Varus/kai´sa, or rely in something else like Lucian and MF does, namely stomping early and ending before anyone else gets moving.

So putting it simply, marksmen overall are shit tier picks for dealing with tanks, oddballs and exceptions like vayne wont change that.

Instead you want to look for mages like the mentioned malz/cassio/brand/Zyra/anivia or melee that can use black cleaver or skipping that, conqueror and just shredd any tank right through like Darius/Garen/Kled or even Riven if i recall

Fiora is a oddball like Vayne so i wont use her as a example but she is pretty much the toplane equivalent of Vayne so mention her i should still.

So my point, the best counters you can possibly find to tanks are mages who can use Liandry well or melee who use black cleaver or conqueror well.

Marksmen in general? Takes far far far far faaaaar too long for them to get useful.

Iota Theta4 votes

{quoted}

Indeed it is how it is supposed to be, as in marksmen do not beat tanks normally.

And Mundo´s ult has been balanced to heal a ton even through GW as he is useless otherwise, now GW is just a baseline requirment to even stand a chance at dealing with him.

And malp can easily 1v1 a marksman like Ashe/cait even with a full tank build up to 4 items or so, because they are glass cannos that cant endure any damage on their own.

Its what makes vayne/Lucian/kai´sa so strong by comparison, they have means to avoid damage thus they might survive and do damage making them far more powerful when compared.

Except the issue here is that you need 3 crit items to effectively use crit at all, that leaves 1 slot for lifesteal and 1 for armor pen and 1 for boots, i personally tried only using 2 but it wasnt good, not even on Ashe who doesnt crit the normal way.

And so do you see any room for defensive items in a crit build? Me neither, which is why crit marksmen generally are massive hit or miss cases that flunder extremely in performance but generally sink very quickly against tanks until they have 5 items+ boots,,,,or full build rather.

Full build to be any good? A counter? Might as well pick Cassio/malz, get liandry&rylai early and just melt the tanks in 10 seconds, end the game at 4 items before the marksmen even know what is going on.

Other option for the marksmen is to use a onhit build but only a few can actually use those effectively, like kog/vayne/Varus/kai´sa, or rely in something else like Lucian and MF does, namely stomping early and ending before anyone else gets moving.

So putting it simply, marksmen overall are shit tier picks for dealing with tanks, oddballs and exceptions like vayne wont change that.

Instead you want to look for mages like the mentioned malz/cassio/brand/Zyra/anivia or melee that can use black cleaver or skipping that, conqueror and just shredd any tank right through like Darius/Garen/Kled or even Riven if i recall

Fiora is a oddball like Vayne so i wont use her as a example but she is pretty much the toplane equivalent of Vayne so mention her i should still.

So my point, the best counters you can possibly find to tanks are mages who can use Liandry well or melee who use black cleaver or conqueror well.

Marksmen in general? Takes far far far far faaaaar too long for them to get useful.

That’s an issue with marksman itemization and the state of the game in general, but their purpose is supposed to be sustained damage, DPS, which is supposed to bring down tanks and objectives. That turns on the most at full build, which is hard to get to these days from the sound of things. It’s not a fault of their purpose, but the state of the game and their items. Marksmen are supposed to be the main DPS class, which means they should be the class that’s best tuned to take down tanks.

But they have been forced into certain builds that don’t allow armor pen. They rushed crit in the past because of the spike IE gave with it’s old passive, and now it’s tougher for them to do so since it now converts a portion of crit damage to true, although that does allow them to be better against tanks without equally exploding squishier champs. I believe this was the intended purpose of the change.

The thing is marksmen, the DPS class, were tank killers before as well. They were the mandatory class for objecive power, late game power, and killing of tanks (damage outscales defense). They didn’t have the trouble they have now. So what changed? Crit mandatory, crit paths, inability to properly itemize. ADCs at one point needed 3-4 crit items because you had to have 80-100%. But that doesn’t change the fact that ADCs are supposed to be one of the main tank counters. DPS mages as well, but those aren’t as common, and again, DPS that ADCs also deliver, and more reliably at that (auto attacks). Don’t forget that a common view a couple seasons ago was that tanks were just living batteries for the ADC and were just being shredded by them.

You may disagree, but DPS classes were always the way to kill tanks, and ADCs are the DPS class. But that requires a change in philosophy, builds, and game state. That might mean sacrificing having 80-100% crit to be able to punch through armor, or lifesteal the damage that the tank dealt, and overall Damage needs to move away from everything being burst to allow sustained to be more common, which would likely allow late game Marksmen to be better and the tank killers they are supposed to be.

Thefrostyviking1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Iota Theta,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=aMBbXtFo,comment-id=0006000000000000,timestamp=2019-01-14T15:21:49.525+0000)

That’s an issue with marksman itemization and the state of the game in general, but their purpose is supposed to be sustained damage, DPS, which is supposed to bring down tanks and objectives. That turns on the most at full build, which is hard to get to these days from the sound of things. It’s not a fault of their purpose, but the state of the game and their items. Marksmen are supposed to be the main DPS class, which means they should be the class that’s best tuned to take down tanks.

The idea of a "main DPS" class falls apart when DPS mages and melee with good damage exist along with the marksmen, the reason being that the tanks then need to become insanely tanky to do their job effectively and not just drop dead in seconds, which in turn makes tanks insanely OP when such levels of DPS are not present.

But they have been forced into certain builds that don’t allow armor pen. They rushed crit in the past because of the spike IE gave with it’s old passive, and now it’s tougher for them to do so since it now converts a portion of crit damage to true, although that does allow them to be better against tanks without equally exploding squishier champs. I believe this was the intended purpose of the change.

That was the idea and it does work, marksmen are much less prone to bursting squishies just at 2-3 items nowadays, but you know even before the change people still built 3 crit items so that hasnt really changed, critbuilds before still used 3 crit items, boots then 1 lifesteal and 1 armor pen.

Much the same as now really, issue is just that they also removed that passive off lord dom which effectively means that any damage gained from the IE change against high armor was then just lost instantly.

The thing is marksmen, the DPS class, were tank killers before as well. They were the mandatory class for objecive power, late game power, and killing of tanks (damage outscales defense). They didn’t have the trouble they have now. So what changed? Crit mandatory, crit paths, inability to properly itemize. ADCs at one point needed 3-4 crit items because you had to have 80-100%. But that doesn’t change the fact that ADCs are supposed to be one of the main tank counters. DPS mages as well, but those aren’t as common, and again, DPS that ADCs also deliver, and more reliably at that (auto attacks). Don’t forget that a common view a couple seasons ago was that tanks were just living batteries for the ADC and were just being shredded by them.

Crit Marksmen before stormrazor use pretty much the exact same builds as they used in season 5 when the crit rework happened, and now the only difference is that you start a stormrazor, then crit, then lifesteal/armor pen and sell the stormrazor when you need space.

And Cassio is literally one of the most played mages now, Malzahar has been one ever since the mage rework, Ori as well and Anivia has been jumping around.

Brand and Zyra are extremely common.

And melee with DPS are common as heck, and most of them have tools to utright bypass high health or resistances, or both.

You may disagree, but DPS classes were always the way to kill tanks, and ADCs are the DPS class. But that requires a change in philosophy, builds, and game state. That might mean sacrificing having 80-100% crit to be able to punch through armor, or lifesteal the damage that the tank dealt, and overall Damage needs to move away from everything being burst to allow sustained to be more common, which would likely allow late game Marksmen to be better and the tank killers they are supposed to be.

Please they were not.

Marksmen as a whole were never "the DPS" class, or Yi/pre rework aatrox/jax and whoever else wouldnt have had the highest DPS in the game.

Kog and Vayne are the traditional "anti tank" marksmen, later Varus with rageblade came into the picture and now Kai sa as well, Tristana was considered alright as her ,...problematic kit ensured that even if the other side had a frontline she might just bypass it and kill the backline but this made her eat nerfs and fall into obscurity for long periods of time

Only 2 picks that were present for a long time were any good with tanks.......and you state that they are the representative class? Cassio, Anivia, Malz and other mages have existed for longer, been better at the job and been more abundant in numbers for for longer.

reaper40422 votes

yeah from what i remember in like s5ish it was tanks > burster ( assasins and burrst mages > adc(any sustained damage really) >tanks

Lhuhz3 votes

Why would you rework Vayne when champs like Fiddlesticks Mordekaiser Pantheon exist ?

Elohaven3 votes

Vayne doesn't need a rework.

There's a reason they based Kai'Sa off her. She's a fine champion. She's not the reason tanks are unviable. If she were, you could just ban her and you'd be fine. She doesn't have that much of an impact - just literally designed to hardcounter tanks. This is more of you complaining about a champion you lack the skill to beat. You say 0 effort but clearly never played Vayne. This is like those posts saying nerf Zed because he lacks skill. He's only annoying but there are pretty clear struggles he face. And her kit already allows her to pick off isolated enemies.

The issue with League is damage and a lot of frontloaded burst for free early on. You want to rework a champion you know nothing about and her community didn't ask for. It's like Riot taking away all the favorite aspects of your main.

The issue with tanks is the damage in the game right now and how everyone else can snowball except them. They cannot do their job due to everyone else getting more stats and damage than they can resist. So, moreso, the tanks should get health back, more MR, and better armor items with passives.

Can't take this post seriously either when tanks are actually really useful in teamfights still. It's actually more of their scaling comparatively to enemies. I agree scaling auras would be a good idea. You just don't realize how OP it would be for all these changes to go through and how absurd nerfing everything is.

You don't go into detail on what to nerf. (BTW, Riot is nerfing ignite and runes). And you don't even give substantial reason or explanation on how these nerfs will change the game.

IainG102 votes

I think the original purpose of Vayne was to be the go-to champ if the enemy took 2+ hyper-tanks. The thing is, Riot have since killed hyper-tanks as a thing.

That said I'd rather see true tanks become viable again than see Vayne reworked.....

Elohaven1 votes

She was also the OG late-game hypercarry and has been a staple marksmen throughout League history. Hence she's the only champion with so much True Damage in her kit which Riot had removed from other champions since her genesis and other mechanics such as dodge chance.

All marksmen are meant to drain tanks but Vayne is meant to be a multi-purpose, hypercarrying killing machine late-game like Twitch and Jinx except she has more game agency and no teamfight potential.

SaltyCauseBad3 votes

Idk, coming from a Darius main if I dont have flash up and a Zac I never get near enough to anybody since everyone just plays mages and Adc's in every role.

Legit Ill get 5 miles close to the enemy Draven, get slapped with a 600 dmg crit ( AFTER FUCKING MITIGATION) and eat an Ori Ball and pulse for 900 magic dmg and just go back to 'zoning' (Whatever the fuck that means these days), waiting for my red buff to re-heal me to full. The only time a fight starts is when one of the holy damage gods Zed Khazix Rengar Camille catch someone out and one shot them but at this point there team has all gone in thinking they could save their Azir before he gets one shot and then the fight starts.

The same goes for the rest of these poor fucks Volibear DrMundo Illaoi TahmKench Olaf

Like, yea we deal alot of damage, we get to ACTUALLY DEAL THE DAMAGE EVERY FIVE FIGHTS. Unless your rushing item 3742 item 3800 and are fed, your just gonna get CC'd and slapped for half your hp (if your lucky)...

Anyway, I said this before and I stand by it, nerf the damage bruisers deal idgaf, BUT GIVE ME ITEMS AND TOOLS TO STOP ME DYING IN THREE FUCKING SECONDS TO AUTO ATTACKS EVEN WHEN I FUCKING HAVE item 3143 item 3047 item 3742 AND THE HIGHEST BASE ARMOR AND ARMOR GROWTH IN THIS FUCKING GAME.

ty for reading [slayer-jinx-wink]

Elohaven3 votes

If you check the damage, mages and assassins deal more damage to you than ADCs on average.

Big Boi Darius1 votes

I always try to get my grubby hands on one champion in a team fight and I just get anal raped by cc and damage :(

LordGeovanni2 votes

Aatrox is by no means good CC.

Saezio3 votes

{quoted}

Aatrox is by no means good CC.

Death is the best CC so.. I disagree with you. Also ulting and running and being able to zone 3 people for 20 seconds is not CC but it sure works better than a maokai. Also you have to remember that Aatrox will get to LANE against a tank. xD How freaking easy is that?

LordGeovanni1 votes

well dam then aatrox definitly isnt good at cc as he doesnt kill you unless you give him your life on a platter. Ulting and letting people wait it out while you take nothing important you mean. because if you do go for something important they just pop your revive early and leave you with less hp.

Saezio1 votes

{quoted}

well dam then aatrox definitly isnt good at cc as he doesnt kill you unless you give him your life on a platter. Ulting and letting people wait it out while you take nothing important you mean. because if you do go for something important they just pop your revive early and leave you with less hp.

Idk I don't play Aatrox, I have mostly seen him in competitive and such, he sure seemed to do a fuckton of damage when Theshy and Caps played him. When he hits cleaver+Youmous on a decent timing he destroys the midgame.

LordGeovanni1 votes

Frankly competitive doesnt play like the real game as people there end up being so scared to go in that they allow things like Aatorx with Black cleaver youmu's and that shit isnt instantly blown up he has a revive so what he is still blown up and either has to get out while you kill his allies or stay in while you kill his allies to try to get the revenge kill. at which point you out number him so just dont stand on the same side as your allies and surround him you cut his healing and damage to at least one person. until cc comes back up if it was down

Lhuhz1 votes

He is

The thigh guy1 votes

{quoted}

Aatrox is by no means good CC.

3 knocks ups that a child Could hit, a relocation and slow. Yeah. Totally just insanely under powered levels of cc from someone who is insta gibbing people

LordGeovanni1 votes

3 knocks ups that dont even clip autos the only use they have are stopping channeled abilites if you are lucky enough to run into one and not cc'ed out of doing anything to it. Its mostly just his W thats great Relocation and slow trash slow and trash ways to secure the Pull back.

Fraggleroc1 votes

Maybe an "Aura"-type rune power based on Bonus Health? That only tanks would be interested in taking.

Whatever it is, tanks need help. And this post outlines a lot of the problems. Every champs zoomzooms around n deal tons of damage. tanks/healers couldnt keep up.

Daddy Ants1 votes

{quoted}

  • Nerf the damage of everything bar champion kits (Items, Summoner spells, runes)

They're already working on that.

Minimac20002 votes

{quoted}

They're already working on that.

They've been "working on that" since runes reforged. Nothing's going to change

Biscuit Bite1 votes

Hey, hey, you missed her: Irelia

DNFVixen1 votes

{quoted}

Seriously, the amount of damage is ridiculous. Speaking as a support main, you don't get time to heal/shield people anymore before one shot boom and they are dead at late game. AD champions are worst offenders at this and I cannot seem to make people understand that blowing people up in one shot, may feel good for you but its just going to frustrate the other team and potentially make Riot lose people. The amount of reaction time needed these days is absurd and Riot needs to understand that we are not all Korean and make this game fun again across ALL skill levels and not just the top 10% of the game.

The only ridiculously tanky champions I see these days are champions like Darius that seem to get the best of both worlds. If you compare this to naval combat. You have Dreadnoughts (Tanks) and you have Battleships (Bruisers), why would you ever need a dreadnought when a Battleship has...

  • More mobility - Fiora & Camille
  • More damage and quicker reload (resets) - Darius
  • Good CC on a low cooldown - Aatrox

Literally the ONLY reason you can take a tank these days is for large AOE CC, like Maokai or Malphite but most supports & mages can do that easily and be MORE useful (looking at you Neeko and Pyke) so the main strength of a tank has been taken away by overloaded terrible new champions.

So what edge do tanks hold now?

Since Vayne exists and is getting free buffs to appease ADC mains of her and can easily melt tanks. (An anti-tank ADC is ridiculous in my opinion since ADC's naturally counter tanks anyway and are supposed to do their damage from relative safety and capable of kiting) then the "Dreadnought" class has been pushed far and far into the backgrounds to make ways for Battleships.

Yet Riot seem to think that overpowering Ornn will fix the issue when the problem is a MUCH larger one and tanks will continue to be irrelevant. They can occasionally work but also pro-players pick them as well which means that Riot have to keep them weak, look at what they've just done to Sejuani because of pro-play. Tanks will never be as balanced as they can be. (They can be devastating if used if used in a coordinated team but not in solo Q so Riot has the choice of keeping them a "pro only" class they need to continually tweak around with or change their function so they can be used universally)

There are only a few solutions I can suggest

  • Nerf the damage of everything bar champion kits (Items, Summoner spells, runes)
  • Rework Vayne so that she doesn't destroy tanks with 0 effort. (Suggestion: Vayne is a HUNTER so what about a kit that allows her to easily pick off isolated enemies, kinda like an ADC version of Kha'zix... I don't know, I'm not a designer but nothing about her screams "Giant-killer" or "Anti-tank" anyway)
  • Reduce the game changing nature of tank CC so its not as desirable or more "niche" for pro-play rather then a necessity.
  • Give tanks the unique cross-tank ability that they can produce auras (I know Riot, you hate them but they DO serve a purpose in other games and could help here) that buff other champions so it feels like they are more "Command ships" then worthless "Dreadnoughts" drastically improving their usefulness.

I cannot take credit for the idea of giving tanks "Auras" because I've seen it in Star Trek: Online. That game also had a massive problem with damage creep and DPS was the only important thing in the game. Cryptic tried to remedy this by reducing damage and providing their tank class of ship (Cruisers) with the ability to use a comm array, to increase their value in combat and buff other ships in battle. It was a clever idea and I'm suggesting that the same thing could work here since Riot are never going to nerf damage down clearly but it would allow tanks to serve a more useful purpose in teamfights.

Riot just needs to revert runes reforged back to season 7 runes and amsteries and undo all the stat changes they made since season 4 and balance the new champions to match.

Z3Sleeper1 votes

Psst, Ornn is nowhere near overpowered. Losing his shield nerfed the fuck out of him.

Gramps691 votes

Bring back OG Aegis of the Legion passive aura

FTGlory1 votes

Damn,Riot should read this,good post! [slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

Thaakillah1 votes

tanks are weak but your suggestion of making vayne a hunter.. is ridiculous adc is and should be around the team, not walk alone somewhere like a khazix.

Starcraft243ver1 votes

I'm sorry but heal is fine. When you see how a late game twitch lulu is unkillable due to sustain, shields, bonus hp, ardent, ... Heal doesnt need any buff.

LordGeovanni1 votes

That was a problem because adcs were doing too much damage and healing too much for their hp pools with trace amounts of lifesteal Not because windowed long cooldown healing and shields that provided 30 on hit healing was too powerful thats just where adcs threw off their trail which after those were gutted adcs still ended up having to be nerfed (which were actually buffs post level 4)

Ranmiaku1 votes

i honestly think you're insane if you think tanks are bad, tanks have been broken for the entire time i've ever played league and they just completely ruin the fucking game, able to basically just one shot squishy champs and never fucking die, i played against a sion earlier who wasn't even fed at all, and it was taking 5 of us a solid 2 minutes to kill him or even come close, but he could press r and take over half my hp, and at the end of the game he mitigated over triple the damage he actually took, which is completely fucking insane, this game has the most ridiculous tanks i've ever seen in any game and they are not fun to play against in the least unless you're playing one of the few champs that can actually damage a tank

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