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Zoe - is NOT the benchmark for what a mage should be...

GreyfellD··88 votes·15,635 views

Zoe - is one of the WORST designed champions in League. (Incoming downvotes... but read on anyway) An example of why Riot should fire the creator of Yasuo. He obviously does not understand mages at all. Her kit is a total powercreep, giving her mobility equal to that of Leblanc, with a BETTER Lux passive. It seems that this guy just looked at other mages and borrowed parts of each, power creeped them and then combined them to create Zoe.

Now, when any changes are proposed to help struggling AP immobile mages such as Velkoz, Xerath and even Lissandra (She is not mobile because her E cooldown is massive compared to most modern champions), people get scared that such changes to AP items will make Zoe more uncontrollable and they are totally RIGHT to fear that.

This is the reason why AP Mages cannot really be saved at the moment in League or made viable BECAUSE of Zoe and her badly designed, power creeped kit. She either needs to be removed or reworked to make her far far less powerful but she should NOT be the modern benchmark for any of Riot's next mage designs because she is just NOT a mage.

She is an assassin disguised as a Mage, in the same way that Pyke will NEVER be a support, he's an assassin pretending to be a support. Riot have completely forgotten what attracts people to different roles in the first place. People do not play support champions because they like to have massive damage without an ADC, some of us like to protect and help our teammates. I feel Riot has really lost touch with their own game.

166 Comments

HalcyonDweller59 votes

I agree that Zoe is unfair, but her mobility is not equal to Leblanc's. Leblanc can choose to stay at the target cast area rather than be forced to return. Zoe is actually really immobile, all things considered.

While Zoe is super strong in some areas, she makes up for it by being weaker in other areas.

I still hate the champion, but you're not making a good case for why she deserves to be hated.

GreyfellD5 votes

I don't think she should have any mobility AT ALL because her summoner spell stealing is so impactful and she is supposed to be a mage. Why is it that every modern champion released these days HAS to have a mobility spell. Its the reason why League is as bad as it is. Too many champions can escape easily or outright ignore walls and other obstacles.

HalcyonDweller19 votes

You should find a better word to use than "mobility" it really isn't applicable in this situation. She winds up in the same spot as she cast it in, at a fixed length of time after casting it.

GreyfellD3 votes

It moves her from one point, to another... its mobility

HalcyonDweller23 votes

{quoted}

It moves her from one point, to another ... its mobility [and then back to the first point]

FTFY

GreyfellD3 votes

It is STILL mobility...

HalcyonDweller24 votes

It is far more restricted than actual mobility.

And she's still countered by diving onto her or picking her. If she's forced to use it to dodge something then she won't be able to use it to do any actual damage with her Q. It has better counterplay than the rest of her kit.

If you want to complain about Zoe, why aren't you talking about Sleepy Trouble Bubble?

FlameHalbrdOkido9 votes

{quoted}

It is far more restricted than actual mobility.

And she's still countered by diving onto her or picking her. If she's forced to use it to dodge something then she won't be able to use it to do any actual damage with her Q. It has better counterplay than the rest of her kit.

If you want to complain about Zoe, why aren't you talking about Sleepy Trouble Bubble?

Asking the real questions

Teridax688 votes

I think the point being made here is that, while Zoe's ult isn't the same as other mobility abilities, in that it can't allow her to durably reposition to a new location, it is nonetheless mobility in that it moves her around, and this has meaningful gameplay consequences.

To take an extreme, if Zoe's ult had global range, she could blink wherever she'd want for one second, and this would have an impact on the game, because she could then have a chance at killing champions anywhere, and influencing objectives far beyond her original cast location. She'd eventually blink back to her starting point, but during the time in-between, she'd have moved, and so in a manner that let her have an impact. With just the current ult range, this is enough to have her redirect her Q, and apply a fairly painful passive + Lich Bane-enhanced autoattack, neither of which she could do if she had remained in the same position. As such, Zoe's ult is mobility, even if it's mobility that operates a little differently from most other abilities.

I may be reading too much into this, but Zoe's kit feels kind of pernicious to me in how it almost feels like it was designed to be more easily defended on paper. Because Zoe's ult blinks her back, and because she can't reliably obtain Flash from her W, she can be said to have "no mobility" (and even Rioters have said that on her release). Similarly, because her W can't offer any summoner spell or item active reliably, she has been said to have little CC or utility, and only one real source of damage (i.e. her Q). The end result is that two of Zoe's five ability slots get completely discounted from discussion of her gameplay, which leads to the false impression that she's this champion with very heavy limitations and a strict power budget.

In practice, however, Zoe frequently zips around fights thanks to the Flashes she steals, plus her ult, and is notorious for screwing over other laners if she gets an early Redemption, or just her own if she gets Ignite or a similar effect. It's easy to pretend that Zoe has nothing in internet arguments, but in practice she has access to everything, even if it's not entirely reliable, which is why I think she actually has one of the most poorly-defined strength/weakness profiles in the game, among many other flaws.

HalcyonDweller14 votes
upvoted to counter whoever downvoted you.

Don't get me wrong, I have lots of problems with Zoe's design, but the OP is not making a good case for why she's problematic. They're making the rest of us who have legitimate grievances with Zoe's design look bad by railing against Zoe for ridiculous reasons. The OP never mentioned her W in our entire discussion. They only railed on about the ultimate - an ability which, all things considered, is one of the least problematic things in her kit.

Bouncemaster Zac4 votes

{quoted}

You should find a better word to use than "mobility" it really isn't applicable in this situation. She winds up in the same spot as she cast it in, at a fixed length of time after casting it.

It sure doesn't lessen the fact she dodged that high priority spell like it was nothing and can do so every 6 seconds.

BestPudgeNA3 votes

{quoted}

You should find a better word to use than "mobility" it really isn't applicable in this situation. She winds up in the same spot as she cast it in, at a fixed length of time after casting it.

Her W at max rank gives 70% move speed for 4 seconds on less then a 1 second cooldown plus at times she can flash/protobelt like 5 times in 5 seconds. This whole Zoe doesn't have "mobility" bullshit needs to stop. Zoe is a artillery poke mage like Lux, Xerath and Velkoz but for some reason she gets mobility that at times rivals the best skirmishers and assassin. It's absurdly unbalanced.

HalcyonDweller2 votes

We were discussing her ultimate, the OP claimed that her ultimate was mobility when it really wasn't. That's what we're talking about when we argued back and forth.

BestPudgeNA1 votes

{quoted}

We were discussing her ultimate, the OP claimed that her ultimate was mobility when it really wasn't. That's what we're talking about when we argued back and forth.

  1. Her ulti is mobility, saying "temporary" mobility isn't mobility is absurd

  2. The OP didn't even mention the ulti you just assumed that

  3. It still doesn't change the fact that Zoe is in the top 20 or so champs in terms of mobility in the game.

HalcyonDweller2 votes

  1. Mobility implies it can be used to kite or chase people or go over walls permanently. This ultimate can do none of those things.

  2. Her ultimate is the only ability that functions at all similarly to Leblanc's mobility. It's not that hard to connect the dots, it was heavily implied that the OP was referring to the ability to blink someplace and then blink back.

  3. how? Sorry dude but that's not something I'm convinced of, you can't present something as fact if it's precisely what is up for debate in the first place. That's like begging the question.

  4. Why the fuck are we still arguing about this? It's completely irrelevant. We're all in agreement that Zoe is annoying and problematic. Please circle back to the point of all of this or shoo, I'm not interested in wasting any more of our time arguing about pointless crap.

BestPudgeNA1 votes

{quoted}

  1. Mobility implies it can be used to kite or chase people or go over walls permanently. This ultimate can do none of those things.

Wrong, her R can be used for multiple of those things. When you chasing people down it can allow you blink forward and chase people down to finishes them off with an auto ect. It can be used to kite ALL melee 1 second, which is sometimes all you need and kiting for 1 second is still kiting. Her R also has some mechanics that allow it for strong kiting, for example against Kayn's R if you Portal Jump away in the last second of his R he will be dumped out at the spot you portal jumped too and therefor it's a gap creator. It can be used similar with point and click dashes like Xin's E, Irelia Q. It can also be used with the blast plant where if you're near a melee at a blast cone you can portal jump away, AA the cone pushing the melee away from your return spot.

That's ignoring the situation were you might wanna R over the dragon pit wall and smite steal with W, in those situations you want to go back so it's actually just better then Leblanc because it's harder to get CCed and bursted.

  1. how? Sorry dude but that's not something I'm convinced of, you can't present something as fact if it's precisely what is up for debate in the first place. That's like begging the question.

It's not a debate though. She has more mobility then the vast majority of champs. It's a statement of fact

  1. Why the fuck are we still arguing about this? It's completely irrelevant. We're all in agreement that Zoe is annoying and problematic. Please circle back to the point of all of this or shoo, I'm not interested in wasting any more of our time arguing about pointless crap.

You said she "Zoe is actually really immobile, all things considered." that's not even close to the truth. I'm just stating facts not even trying to "debate" this it's just a fact.

HalcyonDweller2 votes

Aside:

Wow do you downvote everything you disagree with? How petty can you get?

I even went as far as to upvote one of your comments to counteract somebody's downvote on you.

Fuck me though, right?

Responses:

{quoted}

Wrong, her R can be used for multiple of those things. When you chasing people down it can allow you blink forward and chase people down to finishes them off with an auto ect. It can be used to kite ALL 1 second, which is sometimes all you need and kiting for 1 second is still kiting. Her R also has some mechanics that allow it for strong kiting, for example against Kayn's R if you Portal Jump away in the last second of his R he will be dumped out at the spot you portal jumped too and therefor it's a gap creator. It can be used similar with point and click dashes like Xin's E, Irelia Q. It can also be used with the blast plant where if you're near a melee at a blast cone you can portal jump away, AA the cone pushing the melee away from your return spot.

That's ignoring the situation were you might wanna R over the dragon pit wall and smite steal with W, in those situations you want to go back so it's actually just better then Leblanc because it's harder to get CCed and bursted.

These examples are all extremely situational, and most of them have massive reaction-time/skill requirements to even be viable. She still has all of the same weaknesses as immobile mages.

Smiting from over dragon wall is an edge case and has little or nothing to do with mobility. Most mobile characters can't even do that. So again it's not really comparable to mobility. And the chances of her getting smite to be able to do that are slim to none, unless her jungler recently wasted smite on a camp which they shouldn't be doing if dragon is about to be contested. Same deal for the other jungler, they aren't going to waste smite and leave a charge lying around for her to pick up.

It's not a debate though. She has more mobility then the vast majority of champs. It's a statement of fact

You said she "Zoe is actually really immobile, all things considered." that's not even close to the truth. I'm just stating facts not even trying to "debate" this it's just a fact.

She's weak to all of the same things as immobile mages. She's not any more capable of escaping being caught than they are.

BestPudgeNA1 votes

{quoted}

Aside:

Wow do you downvote everything you disagree with?

No, i downvote factually false statements presented as opinions.

Responses:

She's weak to all of the same things as immobile mages. She's not any more capable of escaping being caught than they are.

Your response, is just you saying false statements repeatedly. She is MASSIVELY more capable of chasing and escaping then other similar mages like Xerath and Lux.

HalcyonDweller3 votes

{quoted}

No, i downvote factually false statements presented as opinions.

Your response, is just you saying false statements repeatedly.

It's all subjective, whatever you believe is false you will treat this way, regardless of whether it is objectively false or not. Same difference, it's still a fuck me. Are you here to reach an understanding? Or are you just here to try to assert your supposed superiority by picking arguments over irrelevant shit?

She is MASSIVELY more capable of chasing and escaping then other similar mages like Xerath and Lux.

Chasing? only if they use flash. Because of her W. Certainly not because of her R. Her R pulls her right back so it doesn't help her follow them with any permanence at all.

Escaping? Not so much. The spells drop where they were cast, not where the caster ends up, if they flash on top of her she won't be able to pick that up.

You're presenting your own opinions as facts while insisting that I'm the one doing that. That's rich.

Stop fucking moving the goalposts. The discussion between the OP and I pertained to Zoe's ultimate, and only her ultimate. I explained this several times yet you INSISTED on trying to force the discussion to be about the rest of Zoe's kit. Get on topic or get out, I'm not going to waste any more time playing by your rules. You can't just derail a discussion like this and expect me to play along.

charge attack1 votes

The movespeed she gets from using summoners is pretty big.

HalcyonDweller3 votes

The OP did not mention that when they suggested that she was mobile. They mistakenly assumed her ultimate counts as mobility.

Ralanr22 votes

How does Zoe have better mobility than Leblanc?

The Space Cowboy4 votes

Rng allows free flashes sometimes, and in a team fight I often get 2-3 flashes.

Ralanr19 votes

So her RNG makes her more mobile than Leblanc’s guaranteed mobility?

The Space Cowboy1 votes

If she wants to double flash she’d be equally mobile. That’s not as consistent admittedly. She can’t be compared to anybody really. She’s nidalee with a pseudo mobility on two slots w and r plus she has a spellblade passive.

Terozu4 votes

Actually even double flashing Leblanc still wins.

2 flashes vs 2 dashes and a flash.

DorkunedAuras9 votes

Not to mention, LB can blink back, for a potential total of 4 dashes.

Kelg18 votes

{quoted} giving her mobility equal to that of Leblanc

Not defending Zoe but in what universe does Zoe have mobility equal to LB??

[sg-lux-2]

She can get a couple flashes maybe, but you can't rely on it like you can with LB

Autrah Fang2 votes

{quoted}

Not defending Zoe but in what universe does Zoe have mobility equal to LB??

[sg-lux-2]

She can get a couple flashes maybe, but you can't rely on it like you can with LB

cuz her ult is basically Leblanc's W... I guess? ...if Leblanc was literally forced to go back to her starting location every time she cast it...

Malix Farwin2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Broken Fangz,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GUmaEZO1,comment-id=000d0000,timestamp=2018-06-28T01:21:51.574+0000)

cuz her ult is basically Leblanc's W... I guess? ...if Leblanc was literally forced to go back to her starting location every time she cast it...

If i see a Zoe ult i am running to where she ulted from because she will 100% go back there. LB on the other hand not only does not have to go back but can also use her ult to dash again.

FOR JUSTICE14 votes

{quoted} giving her mobility equal to that of Leblanc,

leblanc can dash AND blink back to starting points. no ability in zoe's kit can actually get her away from someone via a dash or blink, unless she picks up a flash, which an opponent has to have used first.

zoe's passive only applies to basic attacks, while lux's can be applied and proced from basic attacks, as well as her other spells.

GreyfellD1 votes

Its still power creeped mobility, Lissandra can only use her E once before a massive cooldown and Zoe has a fraction of that cooldown on her mobility.

Kai Guy5 votes

Yea but Lissandra has Aoe CC on 3 abilitys. Shes got single target hard CC with AOE slow on R, that's also you know, defensive option with aoe soft Cc on self cast. She got an AOE hard CC, and her Q is aoe soft cc. That chained togeather can be a huge impact on teamfights, zoe would be more about trying to poke poke poke or burst a squishy target. Its not really a comparable play pattern the two share so I feel it makes for a bad comparison.

Pros and cons, Kits will always have trade offs. Maxing W on zoe makes eather her Q or E worse, and you only get MS out of it. Her R is utility, not mobility. Its extra range on Q, its a passive hit, its a better cast of E. its not mobility.

If we gave liss LB levels of dash.... that's not gonna be fun.

Edit. Felix pointed out her Q is not aoe cc. I stand corrected, it only applies a slow to first unit hit The shatter damage does not slow. Bit embarrassing to say cuz I played her every now and then for years and never noticed fml.

FelixFurry1 votes

Constructive Correction: Lissandra only has 2 AOE CC abilities (W and R), Her Q only applies a slow on the first target. It is not often you are close enough to land it on an enemy champion first to apply the slow, using it on minions to poke from a distance is better. If you are referencing building item 3116 Rylai's Crystal Cepter, it is never built as an item on her.

Also, Zoe is almost never played poke style right now, her burst is far too valuable. Zoe can burst from a far distance while Lissandra is forced to be close-range to complete a full rotation and burst.

I understand how Lissandra's and Zoe's mobility cannot be accurately compared, mostly because Zoe's mobility is reliant on the environment around her (with people flashing and all), but if conditions are right, Zoe can jump with R, collect a flash, and escape easily. But to agree with the top post, it cannot be similar to LB as her mobility is guaranteed whenever she wants. Zoe, again, must rely on her environment for her impactful mobility to be present.

I hope this doesn't sound condescending, I apologize if it does. Have a great day! <3

Kai Guy3 votes

Nah your correct. Q shatter does not apply a slow I provided incorrect information here. I thought the shatter slowed champions and a quick check shows that's not the case.

Zoe burst is a poke pattern imo, land Cc then throw out rest of combo. It can get body blocked. It reminds me a bit of Xerath Hit E? land the WQ on them. For zoe its land E? throw a Q back wards for distance then RQ auto.

When ya miss that e on both champs you can still Q for some damage as you wait for it to CD. Just my take.

Yea flash fiestas are great for zoe, hella mobile then. But at she is meh if her SS down and cant position to collect shard drops.

Purgë2 votes

{quoted}

giving her mobility equal to that of Leblanc,

leblanc can dash AND blink back to starting points. no ability in zoe's kit can actually get her away from someone via a dash or blink, unless she picks up a flash, which an opponent has to have used first.

zoe's passive only applies to basic attacks, while lux's can be applied and proced from basic attacks, as well as her other spells.

lux needs to hit pepole with spell in order to get her passive unlike the very skilled champ zoe who dosnt even need to hit anything

Cloud27313 votes

Sorry op but I disagree. Zoe is one of the healthiest champs Riot has designed in a long time. She actually has to land multiple skillshots if she wants to do any sort of meaningful damage.

charge attack3 votes

Actually that’s her main problem right now. Her W + passive give her a stupid amount of point and click damage

Malix Farwin1 votes

[{quoted}](name=charge attack,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GUmaEZO1,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2018-06-27T20:39:24.274+0000)

Actually that’s her main problem right now. Her W + passive give her a stupid amount of point and click damage

Her problem is her counters are weak in this meta but thats not really "her problem". Most burst mages can blow her up just as soon as she gets in range and the mobility does not mean much to them. She is actually a joke to lane against when i get her, if i can play a burst mage like Annie or Syndra. The problem is those said burst mages then have to deal with the rest of her team.

I get item 3111 for example, she lost the ability to burst me early and will never be able to do a max dmg combo on me. If i get item 3102 second or third item she will never be able to kill me till she both get item 3135 and burn the passive from my banshees.

Dog of Pavlov13 votes

This Zoe hate is actually hilarious. Yes she started out with overpowered numbers and a much too forgiving kit, but with the nerfs today and possibly some minor adjustments she has her balance. Of course she can one shot you given the right conditions, just like literally ANY mage can. Zoe is quite an immobile champion, which many others have pointed out. She has an ability that lets her blink to a spot but FORCIBLY blinks her back.

If Zoe doesn't have flash, how is she going to get away? If you're chasing her with at least a touch of mobility, you will kill her unless you don't play around her e. Her q will not do any damage if you are chasing her.

The reason she feels broken is because her numbers were a little overtuned on her w (the ratio and movement speed nerfs should help). I am terrible at playing Zoe, but playing against Zoe is usually pretty easy (I've won ~2/3 games against Zoe by playing Syndra or Morgana into her).

ValiantKiller6 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dog of Pavlov,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GUmaEZO1,comment-id=000a,timestamp=2018-06-27T19:50:03.956+0000)

This Zoe hate is actually hilarious. Yes she started out with overpowered numbers and a much too forgiving kit, but with the nerfs today and possibly some minor adjustments she has her balance. Of course she can one shot you given the right conditions, just like literally ANY mage can. Zoe is quite an immobile champion, which many others have pointed out. She has an ability that lets her blink to a spot but FORCIBLY blinks her back.

If Zoe doesn't have flash, how is she going to get away? If you're chasing her with at least a touch of mobility, you will kill her unless you don't play around her e. Her q will not do any damage if you are chasing her.

The reason she feels broken is because her numbers were a little overtuned on her w (the ratio and movement speed nerfs should help). I am terrible at playing Zoe, but playing against Zoe is usually pretty easy (I've won ~2/3 games against Zoe by playing Syndra or Morgana into her).

Honestly some people hate her beyond her kit only, her design, her voice and everything about her scream annoying and unlikable really

ChaddyFantome2 votes

{quoted}

Honestly some people hate her beyond her kit only, her design, her voice and everything about her scream annoying and unlikable really

So same reason people bitch about Lulu then. Lulu
[sg-lulu]

ValiantKiller1 votes

{quoted}

So same reason people bitch about Lulu then. Lulu
[sg-lulu]

Nope, i'm big fan of lulu and i really love her so much. Her voice, character and kit is fun honestly but zoe character, voice and ofcourse kit give me the cringe really

ChaddyFantome2 votes

{quoted}

Nope, i'm big fan of lulu and i really love her so much. Her voice, character and kit is fun honestly but zoe character, voice and ofcourse kit give me the cringe really

Well i like em both and largely because they are pretty similar.

ValiantKiller1 votes

{quoted}

Well i like em both and largely because they are pretty similar.

disagree sorry xD

ChaddyFantome2 votes

{quoted}

disagree sorry xD

why am i being downvoted?

Kai Guy8 votes

Lets stop for a moment and be clear. Zoe is not Highly mobile. To max her W for Ms you give up CDR on Q or E, With out SS or items to use she gets nothing. Her own SS... we talking bout mobility on CD = to her SS that's not gross, the items and SS need to be used, she is gonna be at a bit of risk for Point and click short range options. So situationally Yes she can enjoy a window of great mobility from her W, realistically its not the ability that's going to be maxed by most players, she does not have that window with reliable up time. Her R is not mobility, its a relocation yes but shes unable to use it to excape, shes unable to use it to chase. Its telegraphed, its very predicitable. It functions as utility, because its very immobile for it to be called mobility.

So far as OMG MS. Situational, We talking a Ms steroid that's unlikely gonna be pumped to high most the game gated behind usaged of SS. Cassiopeia passive and Q provide Ms. do we call cass mobile? Viktor Q upgrade gives MS, is he mobile? Both of them will see more up time on the MS to zoe, Both of them are more "mobile" then zoe in a majority of situations experienced in game. mobile casters? we usually talking stuff like Ahri Fizz Leblanc Azir and yes im aware that Fizz and LB are typically considered to be Assassins

Meep Man8 votes

You lost me at mobility equal to LeBlanc.

Terozu6 votes

Zoe's passive is not a better Lux passive.

Lux's passive can be aoe and she can hit many targets with it as well as set it of with her ult

big boi edri4 votes

That first sentence makes me think you're not on the boards very often.

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